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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

I'm irked because Infiltrators are pretty much just flat better than Nurglings.

Move? Infiltrators, though admittedly only by an inch.
Toughness? Infiltrators.
Sv? 6++ is only better than 3+ if you're dealing with AP-4 (AP-5 if Cover is there) so Infiltrators are generally winning that.
Wounds? The ONLY place Nurglings are better consistently, with W4 to W2.
Leadership? Infiltrators by a nice margin.
OC? Nurglings can't hold objectives at all. Infiltrators might not have great OC, but they have an OC.
Shooting? Nurglings don't even have guns. Admittedly, the Infiltrators' shooting isn't that significant, but it's galling all the same.
Melee? Nurglings actually win here, specifically against a T8+ model. Lethal Hits does a lot. But against a T5-7 model, their damage is practically the same, and for T4- models, Infiltrators do better damage in melee.
Special rules? -1 to-hit in melee for non-Monster/Vehicle models is nifty. I'd take a 12" bubble of no-Deepstriking over that for sure, though. Also potential CP regen, and a 6+ FNP!

Even with Nurglings being a little cheaper, it's still irksome as all heck. It's just not ENOUGH of a points difference to feel reasonable. Plus, I love those little guys. I want them to be GOOD, not just cheap. (Not killy-but good.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/06/10 22:15:33


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Southern New Hampshire

What exactly are you expecting for something that is... ::checks notes:: ...40 points for three models?

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


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In My Lab

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
What exactly are you expecting for something that is... ::checks notes:: ...40 points for three models?
An OC value above 0 would be nice.
And I don't mind seeing them get more expensive, if they also improve.

I know it's not gonna happen, since they're a popular inclusion in competitive lists. But it's because they have Infiltrate, and that's about it.

Edit: I forgot Scouts still exist.
They're actually very close to the same PPM as Nurglings. And while they lack some of the special rules of the Infiltrators, they're still generally better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/10 22:15:24


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Longtime Dakkanaut






Why would you expect a 100 pt squad to be worse than a 40 pt one?

The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

My 95th Praetorian Rifles.

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In My Lab

 RaptorusRex wrote:
Why would you expect a 100 pt squad to be worse than a 40 pt one?
6 Nurglings are 80 points and are less durable than 5 Infiltrators (100 points) to a lot of things. Scouts are also often more durable, for the same PPM as Nurglings.

I don't expect them to be better-but I am irked by how bad Nurglings are at anything other than just taking up space. I don't need them to be killy, but I'd like them to at least be able to hold objectives-something other Infiltrating models can do just fine.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/06/11 00:06:47


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Tacoma, WA, USA

One thing to remember is that comparing two units in two different Codexes will rarely lead to a straight point to point comparison. This is exceptionally true when you look at Nurglings, an excellent addition to any Chaos army (Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and World Eaters excepted).
   
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In My Lab

 alextroy wrote:
One thing to remember is that comparing two units in two different Codexes will rarely lead to a straight point to point comparison. This is exceptionally true when you look at Nurglings, an excellent addition to any Chaos army (Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and World Eaters excepted).
So what do you propose comparing them to?
As best I can tell, the ONLY reason Nurglings get taken is that they're literally the only Infiltrating option for Chaos.

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This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?

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In My Lab

 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.

Edit: What unit WOULD you compare them to?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/11 00:42:52


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NE Ohio, USA

 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.


So other than both having infiltrate & around the same pts value, they are indeed not very comparable....

   
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In My Lab

ccs wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.


So other than both having infiltrate & around the same pts value, they are indeed not very comparable....

In the same way a sandwich with ham and cheese isn't comparable to a sandwich with ham, cheese, mustard, some veggies, and sauce.

I'll ask you then, ccs-what unit would you compare Nurglings to?

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Southern New Hampshire

 JNAProductions wrote:
ccs wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.


So other than both having infiltrate & around the same pts value, they are indeed not very comparable....

In the same way a sandwich with ham and cheese isn't comparable to a sandwich with ham, cheese, mustard, some veggies, and sauce.

I'll ask you then, ccs-what unit would you compare Nurglings to?


I dunno... maybe... Ripper Swarms?!

Except Nurglings are cheaper PPM, get an invulnerable save, and can be taken in MUCH larger units.

I mean, I feel like complaining that what may well be the most ubiquitous unit in all of Chaos totally sucks feels a little cringey.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/11 01:17:48


She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


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In My Lab

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
ccs wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.


So other than both having infiltrate & around the same pts value, they are indeed not very comparable....

In the same way a sandwich with ham and cheese isn't comparable to a sandwich with ham, cheese, mustard, some veggies, and sauce.

I'll ask you then, ccs-what unit would you compare Nurglings to?


I dunno... maybe... Ripper Swarms?!

Except Nurglings are cheaper PPM, get an invulnerable save, and can be taken in MUCH larger units.

I mean, I feel like complaining that what may well be the most ubiquitous unit in all of Chaos totally sucks feels a little cringey.
The only reason they're ubiquitous is that Chaos doesn't have any other options to Infiltrate.

Though Ripper Swarms is a good point of comparison. Less Toughness, worse save (6+ armor vs. 6+ Invuln), gun is too short range to do much, and Sustained Hits is worse than Lethal Hits when you're S2.
Their unique rule is considerably better, completely shutting down OC1 models from holding objectives, and the ability to be taken in smaller squad sizes is, in my opinion, actually a plus, not a minus.
They also don't have Infiltrate-only Deep Strike.

So yeah, I feel comfortable saying Ripper Swarms could use a buff as well. Not sure what to buff them with, though.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Why would you expect a 100 pt squad to be worse than a 40 pt one?
6 Nurglings are 80 points and are less durable than 5 Infiltrators (100 points) to a lot of things. Scouts are also often more durable, for the same PPM as Nurglings.

I don't expect them to be better-but I am irked by how bad Nurglings are at anything other than just taking up space. I don't need them to be killy, but I'd like them to at least be able to hold objectives-something other Infiltrating models can do just fine.


You take 100 pts for the MSU w/ Infiltrators.

The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.

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Tacoma, WA, USA

 JNAProductions wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
One thing to remember is that comparing two units in two different Codexes will rarely lead to a straight point to point comparison. This is exceptionally true when you look at Nurglings, an excellent addition to any Chaos army (Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children and World Eaters excepted).
So what do you propose comparing them to?
As best I can tell, the ONLY reason Nurglings get taken is that they're literally the only Infiltrating option for Chaos.
Something you can actually take in the same army. That's one of the things about points when comparing units in different armies. If you can't take A & B in the same army, comparing their points to each other is interesting, but not actually instructive.

As you yourself have noted, Nurglings are taken extensively in Chaos armies because they do something that other Chaos units cannot do, Infiltrate. They also take up lots of space with their 40mm bases. That has a lot of value to a Chaos Army. Not such a big deal in a Space Marine army that has multiple units that Infiltrate.
   
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Is it really so strange to expect some semblance of balance between units in different codices?
   
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Deceptors can infiltrate up to six units. I prefer Legionnaires to Infiltrators in that spot, too.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
The only reason they're ubiquitous is that Chaos doesn't have any other options to Infiltrate.


Blue horrors.

And yeah, comparing cross faction is completely irrelevant

And nurglings were SO good that GW felt like they needed to be nerfed because they warped all of the chaos factions

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/11 12:08:19


 
   
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The thing is that across various armies you're going to have some armies that do certain things better than others.

For example, GW could have (and likely did) decide that outside of Alpha Legion, Inflitrate isn't really in Chaos toolkit. Daemons are full of powerful Deep Strike units, which yes isn't the same, but is still their primary alternate deployment method.

If you look at each army you tend to see what kind of mechanics that army tends to favour. If everyone had a unit that could do something similar and was comparable points wise, it would lead to even more homogenization across armies than we already have.

Yeah, some units will be better or worse at things for their points across armies, but that's a good thing and healthy for the game.

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Annandale, VA

 Tawnis wrote:
Yeah, some units will be better or worse at things for their points across armies, but that's a good thing and healthy for the game.


Giving an army limited access to a particular capability because it's not their specialty is a good thing, it differentiates factions and gives them specialties. Giving them the capability but making them pay a high cost for it- and worse, making other capabilities cheaper to encourage their use- naturally leads to avoiding the (artificially) overpriced units and leaning into the (artificially) underpriced units. You get a codex where you can spot the winners and losers in a ten minute skim, and armies end up looking same-y on the tabletop. We've been there before. It's never been good.

If the designers don't want Chaos to be fielding lots of infiltrators, giving them few units with that capability is appropriate. Overcosting that unit is not. Comparing units across armies in a like-for-like comparison is difficult because of external factors like buffs and implicit synergies, but any two comparably priced units should represent comparable value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/11 15:59:31


   
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are we really saying nurglings are too expensive?
   
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In My Lab

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
The only reason they're ubiquitous is that Chaos doesn't have any other options to Infiltrate.


Blue horrors.
Huh. I did not know they had Infiltrate.
I won't use them, since I play Nurgle Daemons, but they have an OC value. That's... Kinda galling to me, especially since they ALSO have a 4++ instead of a 6++. Less wounds per point, at least.

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
The only reason they're ubiquitous is that Chaos doesn't have any other options to Infiltrate.


Blue horrors.
Huh. I did not know they had Infiltrate.
I won't use them, since I play Nurgle Daemons, but they have an OC value. That's... Kinda galling to me, especially since they ALSO have a 4++ instead of a 6++. Less wounds per point, at least.


Nurglings are in-line with every other swarm in the game, in fact theyre probably the best one just because the others dont get an invuln or as good an ability. And demons don't need that many infiltrators considering they have access to a metric fuckton of redeployment and even a possible turn 1 deepstrike (when going second). I don't think nurglings need any buff whatsoever.
   
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And I maintain that since swarms really aren't supposed to be your 'basic troops', they should lose the BATTLELINE keyword (yes, even though they're going to be nerfed into the ground).

She/Her

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Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


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 JNAProductions wrote:

Though Ripper Swarms is a good point of comparison.[...]
Their unique rule is considerably better, completely shutting down OC1 models from holding objectives

Not how that works unfortunately. The rules commentary says if a numerical value is set to a fraction, it rounds up after all modifiers are applied. The rippers halve the opponents OC1 to 0.5, then it rounds back up to 1. So it does absolutely nothing to OC1 units.

I agree that rippers being able to be taken in tiny squads of 1 for dirt cheap is an advantage when it comes to scoring certain secondary objectives. Although rumor suggests the new mission pack is going to limit scoring with OC0 stuff. So they may become irrelevant regardless very soon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/06/11 22:00:09


 
   
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Arson Fire wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Though Ripper Swarms is a good point of comparison.[...]
Their unique rule is considerably better, completely shutting down OC1 models from holding objectives

Not how that works unfortunately. The rules commentary says if a numerical value is set to a fraction, it rounds up after all modifiers are applied. The rippers halve the opponents OC1 to 0.5, then it rounds back up to 1. So it does absolutely nothing to OC1 units.

I agree that rippers being able to be taken in tiny squads of 1 for dirt cheap is an advantage when it comes to scoring certain secondary objectives. Although rumor suggests the new mission pack is going to limit scoring with OC0 stuff. So they may become irrelevant regardless very soon.


It's not a rumor; GW flat-out said that OC0 units can't do actions.

She/Her

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Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


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isn't the point of Nurglings that they suck? they're the grots of chaos. cheap disposable bodies. comparing that to space marines doesn't work because space marines isn't an army of disposable units

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 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.

Edit: What unit WOULD you compare them to?


Poxwalkers? I think most factions are built around some number of holes in their toolbox. Marines don't have (relatively/many) cheap vehicles or screens. Sisters don't have unit beatsticks, neither do Tau. Thousand Sons are slow, and not very beatstick'ish. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Nurglings/Tsangors make it somewhat easy to do Marines + Guard/Chaff which they've actively tried to avoid. They're kind of stuck between not making them good, or not making them at all. Or just allowing Imperium Soup.

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Arson Fire wrote:

Not how that works unfortunately. The rules commentary says if a numerical value is set to a fraction, it rounds up after all modifiers are applied. The rippers halve the opponents OC1 to 0.5, then it rounds back up to 1. So it does absolutely nothing to OC1 units.


That special rule does feel weird to me. Like, presumably the idea is that you have both the nurglings and a second allied unit on an objective at the same time you have an enemy unit with more OC on the objective. And then you have to all coexist in that location long enough for the nurgling rule to kick in. In my experience, if units from both sides are on an objective, one side is about to take enough casualties that their OC is unlikely to matter. But I'm probably biased thanks to mainly playing squishy space elves that don't like holding ground.


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Breton wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
This feels like the very definition of comparing apples to oranges...

Even if Nurglings are bad, what exactly does that have to do with Infiltrators?
They're a very comparable unit, though admittedly Scouts are probably the better comparison point due to having the same PPM.

They're all Infiltrating units-except that's ALL the Nurglings are. They have no shooting, no OC, melee that's mediocre, and a minor special rule. Compare them to a unit that does everything they can do... And more.

Edit: What unit WOULD you compare them to?


Poxwalkers? I think most factions are built around some number of holes in their toolbox. Marines don't have (relatively/many) cheap vehicles or screens. Sisters don't have unit beatsticks, neither do Tau. Thousand Sons are slow, and not very beatstick'ish. Cultists/Poxwalkers/Nurglings/Tsangors make it somewhat easy to do Marines + Guard/Chaff which they've actively tried to avoid. They're kind of stuck between not making them good, or not making them at all. Or just allowing Imperium Soup.


Imperial Agents are a thing...

She/Her

"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Don't be a dick" and "This is a family wargame" are good rules of thumb.


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