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Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.

These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.

Gert wrote:Hey, they have the protection of the Gods. That's worth a thousand flak vests.

And the Imperial Guard has the Emperor's protection. Which is exactly what both need because no one sane would set foot anywhere near what the 41st Millennium has to throw at them without such beliefs.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.

These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.

Not explicitly, but the article talks about how you add Deathwatch to standard Marine armies and then clearly states there's going to be a Grey Knights codex.

So, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Codex: Deathwatch...

Yeah, whilst not confirmation, I’m inclined to agree the wording suggests Codex Deathwatch isn’t coming,

So they already moved one named character to this, which is Watch Captain Artemis. So It might make sense that Drago and the rest would fall in there as well. I think there will be cutting though. Mostly felt on the GK side. Do they really need two different NDKs? Or a completely different Thunderhawk?

Call me a chicken Little, but I see about 50% of the characters staying, and the basic troops/Elites. The weird DW flyer thing is obviously staying, so that leaves a GK Rhino, a GK flyer, both types of their GMDK, their Thunderhawk, and their GK Landraider. I see them keeping their Rhino.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Have they really said there will be no Death Watch codex? I got the impression that this book would have DW and GK units to represent their expeditionary forces seconded to the Inquisition.

These would stand alone units, unlike the "full" units in their codexes.

Not explicitly, but the article talks about how you add Deathwatch to standard Marine armies and then clearly states there's going to be a Grey Knights codex.

So, I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Codex: Deathwatch...

The funny/sad thing about DW/GK is that the GK struggle to get near 'chapter' strength due to their candidate/neophyte requirements. Meanwhile there are not only entire watch-houses of DW, I remember reading that the early Indomitus Crusade lore specifically states that RG created multiple, entire "Chapters", as in 1000 marine units, of DW from the unallocated Primaris influx.

Now, I'm a GK fanboy through and through, but it really seems like it should be the opposite here. DW getting their own codex, while GK getting relegated to "supporting units", as they were originally.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So they already moved one named character to this, which is Watch Captain Artemis. So It might make sense that Drago and the rest would fall in there as well. I think there will be cutting though. Mostly felt on the GK side. Do they really need two different NDKs? Or a completely different Thunderhawk?

Call me a chicken Little, but I see about 50% of the characters staying, and the basic troops/Elites. The weird DW flyer thing is obviously staying, so that leaves a GK Rhino, a GK flyer, both types of their GMDK, their Thunderhawk, and their GK Landraider. I see them keeping their Rhino.

That seems at odds with what the article says. It looks like GK and SoB are getting a couple of units included to act as their requisitioned units (Terminators for GK and Battle Sisters with Immolators and Rhinos for SoB). Given that GK are still due their own Codex, as per this very article, I'd be surprised to see more than just the Terminators here.

It would be interesting to see sisters, who have been plagued by AT issues, suddenly able to pull a bunch of GK tanks into their lists. Or DW. That's actually kinda scary. Also, not gonna lie, the Sisters would be far too up on their high horse to accept GK Psykers into their midst.

So now we need to push Custodes into this book as well.

GK and sisters are still going to be their own armies. as i understand it, IA is going to present the option to soup both of them into its own lists, or soup DW (or the other stuff in the army) into other armies. not really mixing the two, or at least so it sounds

We don't know how it's going to work exactly but the chances are units from GK and SoB are going to be tied to the Ordo detachments rather than allowing them to be freely taken as Agents.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It would be interesting to see sisters, who have been plagued by AT issues, suddenly able to pull a bunch of GK tanks into their lists. Or DW. That's actually kinda scary. Also, not gonna lie, the Sisters would be far too up on their high horse to accept GK Psykers into their midst.

So now we need to push Custodes into this book as well.

Again, that's not how the article says it works. It looks like you can ally units from the Imperial Agents book into your GK or Sisters armies. That doesn't allow SoB to get access to GK Land Raiders, as far as we can tell from the article. The implication is the only GK unit in the IA book will be Terminators and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a caveat that prevents the GK and SoB units being allied into other Imperium armies using this book.

It does highlight the main problem with these kind of books, though. Once you start expanding access to units outside of a given Codex you run the risk of upsetting balance by plugging deliberate gaps in an army. That was one of the biggest problems with souping in previous editions. Hopefully we don't see the same thing here.

To be fair, with the modern detachment system you could easily have a Space Marine army painted as Deathwatch for all the tanks and the like and then the Kill Teams?

Guys- reread the article. Yes, it's a little confusing. Also yes, WARCOM can be unreliable where rules are concerned, so even what it it says may not turn out to be true. But there is a lot of information here that can be figured out.

In the old Index, we had retinue units and characters. They've added a new unit type: Requisitioned units.

We know that GK Termies and BSS are requisitioned units and that DW KT's are retinue Units. The article tells us this clearly.

When you use the Assigned Agents rule to attach IA to other Imperial Armies, for 1k or less, you get one of each type- one Retinue Unit (we know that this can be DW KT or Hench; it can also likely be Arbites, Navy, or Voidsmen, but the article does not specifically say that). One Character Unit- could be an Inquisitor, a Watchmaster, Artemis, a Priest, an Assassin, a Rogue Trader or a Navigator- there may be others, but again, the article is clear that at least these characters are present. Finally, you get one requistioned unit- and the only two we know for sure are available are GK Termies and BSS, though we know BSS can be mounted in an Immo. Scions and SoS do have precident is Requisitioned units in the Ashes of Faith KT set, so there is a chance they will appear there too.

At 2k, you get an extra retinue unit and an extra character.

At 3k, you get 2 extra retinue units, 2 extra characters and one extra requisitioned unit.

That means that according to this article we KNOW that one or two units of GK Termies or BSS (depending on game size) can be souped into another army as Assigned Agents. The article explicitly says so (although again, Warcom has been wrong about rules in the past).

Importantly, when using the Assigned Agents rule, there is no need to identify the IA forces by Keyword- you don't have to say that they're all Ordo Xenos, or Ordo Malleus or Navy; they're just a group of agents. Hopefully, GW came up with a rule that allows Assigned Agents to use the detachment rulesof the Faction to which they are attached; if not, we get the same problem we have right now- no enhancements or strats for any of the Agents.

DW are likely to be insulated from that effect if the Faction they attach to is Space Marines, because they will still likely have the Astartes Keyword. So even if GW doesn't write rules specifically giving Agents access to the detachment rules, DW will likely still be able to use them as long as the Host Army is SM.

Now, if you use one of the IA detachments, the limits on how many units of each type you can use don't apply, so a Xenos detachment could field 6 DW KT's, Artemis, a Watch Captain, an Inquisitor with a retinue, a couple squads of breachers, a Rogue Trader, and any/ all could be mounted in Blackstars.

And of course, they'll have Oro Xenos detachment rules too.

What IS unclear is whether there are any other Sisters or GK units available as Requisitioned Agents. I don't think there will be, because as the article points out with Sisters and GK, you're just better off to add Agent units to those armies with the Attached Agents rule, in which case ANY Sisters or GK unit is fair game, but the Agents that accompany them may be overcosted and underpowered unless GW fixed the situation that prevents them from using the detachment rules of their host army.

What I think I'd like to see is that Assigned Agents CAN use the detachment rule of their host armies, but only when it's an Ordo/ Chamber match- so Assigned Agents that identify as Hereticus can use detachment rules IF they are attached to Sisters, but not if they're attached to other armies.

That may be too restrictive- especially since the Navy units don't have a Chamber. Another way to solve the problem is by making Guard a count-as-chamber for any Agent. This would mean that Inquisition Assigned Agents could use the detachment rules of EITHER a Chamber Host army OR a Guard host Army, where Navy only have the option to use the Detachment rules of a Guard host army.

So yes, there is some vague stuff in the article, but there's also a lot of stuff that isn't as vague as people are making it, assuming Warcom got it right.

Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

I am personally miffed that GW dropped the ball on naming this article : "SOUPS BACK ON THE MENU BOYS!"

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

Then where would you put them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am personally miffed that GW dropped the ball on naming this article : "SOUPS BACK ON THE MENU BOYS!"

Soups been on the menu since the day 10th dropped.

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

Then where would you put them?

Arbites? I genuinely don't know. I lean towards Guard because they'd mesh well with Scions and Prefectus Commissars.

Navy should be in the Guard book. We literally have a Naval Officer in there. We have Valkyries as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

Agree to disagree.

Many small narrative games are perfect for Navy and Arbites inclusion. I think it's fair to say that GW should add HQ units for both Navy and Arbites in order to make the inclusion of these factions better, and I think that's really easy to do with a 40k Warhammer Quest game and downloadable PDFs.

And remember, them being included in this book doesn't mean GW intended for them to be used as full armies- the Attached Agent Rule still exists. And yes, when it is determined that a witch needs to be taken alive and imprisoned, it is absolutely appropriate and fluffy AF for an Inquisitor to bring a unit or two of Arbites with him to assist the sisters, whether you think so or not. This was well established in the 3rd ed Witch Hunters book.

Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

Then where would you put them?

Nowhere. I don't really see how any of these aren't just variations of units already available in the IG Index.

Arbites have a cool dog. That's worth a Codex alone.

Two cool dogs if you steal the FW enforcers dog.

Funny thing- I want all the 40k dogs.

Karanak will lead it, Fleshhounds are the Elite and other dogs are their mortal followers.

Navy and Rogue Traders should have their own book. On Turn one I fire all my capital ships port batteries onto the planet surface. Thats 106 Wounds. On turn two the survivors get the Starboard batteries. Lance Strikes should be S500 AP50 D1000 right, Blast, obviously. Lethal hits?

I don't think that the allies going into other armies will be able to use any detachment rules, other than DW into a SM army as they will probably retain "Astartes" keyword, but I bet they don't get oath. (See, Plague Marines/Rubics how they can get the detachment abilities though
"Heretic Astartes" keyword but not dark pacts.) GW does not want allies to be must take units like where for a while in 8th and 9th and so you will probably have to use those units on the strength of the datasheets, which for Battle Sisters or GK terminators, I don't know if that really adds anything (maybe terminators in a guard army for come CC punch). The inquisitors might have more ways to interact with allied units with abilities on their data sheet. I wouldn't hold my breath that this book will be all that competitive either as allies, or as a stand alone. I think this will just be a fun book if you want to add some cool allies for flavor, or play a fun narrative IA list, but I wouldn't expect it to shake up the competitive meta (which I think is actually ok, not everything needs to be competitive meta hyper-tuned)

 Kanluwen wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

Then where would you put them?

Arbites? I genuinely don't know. I lean towards Guard because they'd mesh well with Scions and Prefectus Commissars.

Navy should be in the Guard book. We literally have a Naval Officer in there. We have Valkyries as well.

Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.

Navy and Rogue Traders I guess are just there for want of particularly fitting anywhere else.

 PenitentJake wrote:
Two cool dogs if you steal the FW enforcers dog.

Funny thing- I want all the 40k dogs.

Karanak will lead it, Fleshhounds are the Elite and other dogs are their mortal followers.

Careful, you might rile up the Space Wolf players stepping on their toes like that. </s>

FWIW an "Imperial Navy" army does interest me. Keen to see what units you can take in the faction.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.

I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?

Navy and Rogue Traders I guess are just there for want of particularly fitting anywhere else.

Rogue Traders maybe.

But Navy fits like a glove into Guard. We have the "Officer of the Fleet" as a Regimental Attache. We have Valkyries as our in-codex Flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
FWIW an "Imperial Navy" army does interest me. Keen to see what units you can take in the faction.

Don't get too excited. We basically already know what it is.

-Navigator
-Imperial Breacher Teams
-Rogue Traders & their retinues


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PenitentJake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Arbites and Navy shouldn't be in this book. The weird obsession with Navy and Inquistion is daft.

Agree to disagree.

Many small narrative games are perfect for Navy and Arbites inclusion. I think it's fair to say that GW should add HQ units for both Navy and Arbites in order to make the inclusion of these factions better, and I think that's really easy to do with a 40k Warhammer Quest game and downloadable PDFs.

Which has what to do with the "Imperial Agents"?

And remember, them being included in this book doesn't mean GW intended for them to be used as full armies

And remember that this book is a continuation of a scheme started in 7th. We literally had Imperial Agents brought in then, with the majority of it being them filling in "oopsies".

Y'know, things like Cult Mechanicus not having been given Servitors or Techpriest Enginseers?

Heck, they even had the Officer of the Fleet as a separate HQ!

the Attached Agent Rule still exists

.
Great, but so what?

And yes, when it is determined that a witch needs to be taken alive and imprisoned, it is absolutely appropriate and fluffy AF for an Inquisitor to bring a unit or two of Arbites with him to assist the sisters, whether you think so or not. This was well established in the 3rd ed Witch Hunters book.

Was it actually established, or was it suggested as part of the whole "Adversaries" set up?

It's been a long time since I had that codex, but IIRC that was after Arbites ceased to exist as a playable unit.

Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.

Then what is the point?!

If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Remember that being in a dex =/= for use in all game sizes and types.

Then what is the point?!

If something cannot be playable in 40k, put it somewhere else!

Units that work well at 2000 points don't necessarily work as well at 1000 points, like several varieties of Imperial/Chaos Knights. Even a Land Raider might feel out of place in a 1000-point game, since it and its occupants will likely run in the neighborhood of 500 points.

cut land raiders, and terminators while we're at it. oh, and any big model that's more than 300ish points, since those are really unwieldy in small games. greater demons, knights, big vehicles. oh, and IG tanks, since they're going to feel out of place without all that other big stuff. custodes are really awkward at low point games, so they need to be cut, too

we can really scale down the scope of the game if we keep this up!

 Kanluwen wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Codex Witch Hunters in 3rd Ed could take Arbites so there’s precedent for that.

I don't have the book handy, but wasn't it actually that they suggested using Inquisitorial Stormtroopers with shotguns as a stand-in?

You could upgrade ISTs to Arbites by replacing their hellgun and targeter with a shotgun, but that explicitly made them Arbites and the book said OH ‘often’ called upon them.

Codex: Witch Hunters wrote:The Ordo Hereticus often call upon the Adeptus Arbites to aid them in their work, using them to round up known criminals and screen them for signs of deeper corruption. Hence Inquisitorial Storm Trooper squads may be used to represent squads of the Adeptus Arbites by replacing each trooper’s hellgun and targeter with a shotgun at no extra cost. All other options are unchanged.