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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

This poll might surprise you https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/763215.page#10137147

12 is basically almost the prime age for many people on Dakka who got into Warhammer

I think its important to note that a LOT of the lore and the dark bits of it get over-hyped by fans who fixate on concepts. Kids just see cool models. Chances are there's more violence in most TV and video games than they'll be exposed too through GW models and product art.


Also it wouldn't surprise me if you were to do the same poll in say 10 years or so; if you'd actually see the entry age go down as more people got into it younger through their parents hobby.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.

My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.

 Tawnis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.

My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.

I love this. My son started actual Warhammer w/ me at about the age of 11and it was an amazing part of our life. Now we still play miniature games decades later together.

Back to my post, this was indeed a store server. And my friend, very well versed in 40K rules who has demo'd for kids and families in the past, he missed the conversation. Because my game club is mostly AOS and Heresy 30K, no one else was able to step up to offer actual in - person time.
I don't know the outcome of this -- it is possible an employee PM'd the dad and helped them, met at the shop and got some things rolling. Or he came in and they did. Who knows.
But this thread has been quite illuminating, even if the topic took a direction I was not expecting.

Were I able to sit down with them for a duration of time, I would encourage helping the lad buy a box of his favorite looking squad (10 models preferably), show them how to use One Page Rules, and get the kiddo painting and bonding with his pops with some simple kitchen table skirmishes. Hopefully, if he was as enamored with the models as my son was at 11, he'll return to it quickly via another person even if the store staff dropped the ball.

 KingGarland wrote:
GW has designed the current edition, to various degrees of success, to be easy to get into with easy to build and paint models and simplified rules. Many would say it has become too easy but I digress.

I think the big issue is that the competitive mindset is too entrenched in the 40k community and that often scares away a lot of new players who can't get into that mind set. AoS is still a relatively new game so the competitive nature has yet to fully set in allowing for the spearhead stuff to work a lot better then Combat Patrol.

I also know of plenty of Spearhead events happening near me but there is nothing for Combat Patrol as all to 40k players tend towards competitive play.

I think the big issue is that the internet allows people to be - lets call it: Antisocial. Its one thing to make a wisecrack, then give the good advice and explain why it was a wisecrack. This isn't limited to 40K. Its just another variation on the Alt+F4 "joke".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
TV and video games

40K (as a Girm Dark setting that imports various historical factions and movie monsters as a fictional group) is a video game. Several of them. I'd say most of the more "grim dark" aspects of the setting come from the Black Library than the rule books (though it gets more muddled in the "evil" faction codices). The rulebooks have the big picture dystopia, but not the futility of running away from a lictor behind enemy lines. The models don't move, but some of them do have skulls on spikes coming out of other skulls on spikes. Others have a "nun" in a form fitting breastplate and high heeled battle boots. I haven't seen any Slaaneshi daemons lately, so there may or may not be some bare plastic boobs around. 12 doesn't feel too far off the entry age.

Eh no one really cares about plastic boobs. I think the only one left in the model range right now that I can think of is the one on the bloodwrack medusa and no one ever mentions it.

They only ever think of Slaanesh, who are all covered up (esp now that they retired the old Forgeworld Greater Demon model). The only exposed boobs they've got are on the older seeker models and as they are animals they kind of get away with it.

 PenitentJake wrote:


Blackstone Fortress was really cool.

I do hope we get another one someday- the weirdos from BSF had a huge impact on the game- like the Technoarcheolist, Pious Vorne and Taddeus, and now Navigators coming on as a generic Agent. The Rogue Traders are all still around, though only the generic profile (represented by either of the three) is an official card, but they're still around, providing HQ for Naval units.

Its actually my favourite 40K game. I wasn't that keen on the emphasis on the Chaos marine theme at first, but The Dreaded Ambull balanced it out. And the inclusion of WD rules for a Harlequin Solitaire sealed the deal!

SamusDrake wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:


Blackstone Fortress was really cool.

I do hope we get another one someday- the weirdos from BSF had a huge impact on the game- like the Technoarcheolist, Pious Vorne and Taddeus, and now Navigators coming on as a generic Agent. The Rogue Traders are all still around, though only the generic profile (represented by either of the three) is an official card, but they're still around, providing HQ for Naval units.

Its actually my favourite 40K game. I wasn't that keen on the emphasis on the Chaos marine theme at first, but The Dreaded Ambull balanced it out. And the inclusion of WD rules for a Harlequin Solitaire sealed the deal!

I was all about the Zoat. I missed the Ambull first time around and got lucky with Combat Arena- my Wych Cult Beast Master is going to tame that Ambull someday, and bring it home to the arena in Commorragh.

Also really liked the WD with the Jokaero in it. I think it was 452, but I could be wrong.

Topic for another thread, really, but Zoats are friggin cool and in hindsight sad I didn't get as many BSF expansions as I'd have liked.

SamusDrake wrote:
Topic for another thread, really, but Zoats are friggin cool and in hindsight sad I didn't get as many BSF expansions as I'd have liked.

GW keeps teasing us with Codex Zoats each christmas!! ONE YEAR I hope we get it for real

it may take years. it may take decades. but one of these days they're going to post, the day after, the "No Actually This Time" article, and it will be great

Well its been 30-40 years and they keep rolling out Exodites lore and even a video so.. one day ONE DAY they might actually make a model (besides the 1 bright stallion in old epic)

 Tawnis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.

My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.

Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.

granted, not a parent, but i would imagine that at that age, the painting experience would be the main thing to focus on. you don't really need to get into the lore or background until they're older. for now it can just be those cool colorful toys that dad paints

GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.

The games that let you control a single mini- BSF, Cursed City, or the 3rd Party store games like Combat Arena, Tyranid Attack, etc. would be easy, because there's only one mini to think about.

You can grow from a single model game to something like Kill Team or Warcry.

Then combat patrol.

 PenitentJake wrote:
GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.

It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.

My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.

Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.

When my son was about 6 we started with Star Wars micro machines, a chipped wooden ruler, and a single six sided die. His stormtroopers hit on a 3+, my little guys hit on 5+. He ran the imperials and we had a campaign of sorts going as we developed the story of his leader on a side of paper. Good times. I think that really laid the ground work, then, Mage Knight clix came out a few years later, and he and I went bonkers.

 Overread wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.

It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!

I got recommended a video on that the other day that looked sus, I fear the algorithm so didn’t click it.
But that is still crazy people take it that far, makes me sad.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.

She could throw the dice sure, but you could also explain the choices you would prefer a unit to perform (move into this building and shoot the red guys with axes OR move across this space and charge and blow up this rhino tank) and let her make the decisions on which option to take. You move the figs if she struggles with that.

You might lose the games sure, but you could show her how to lose gracefully. Get her mind thinking tactically at a young age and you never know how far she'll take it. I did much the same with my son when he was five. We started with FoW, he painted his entire first 40k army (blood drinkers) and played in his first 40k tourney at 9. I went as a chaperone, not as an ally or partner or advice giver. He went 2-1 and took home 3rd place.

He is 23 now and is a beast to play against. At 4 there mind soaks stuff up. If she is interested, I would take the shot just for the bonding moments. She may grow out of the hobby, but she wont forget the time you spent with her.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Spoiler:

 Shrapnelsmile wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.

My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.

Honest question and I don’t even think it's OT:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.

When my son was about 6 we started with Star Wars micro machines, a chipped wooden ruler, and a single six sided die. His stormtroopers hit on a 3+, my little guys hit on 5+. He ran the imperials and we had a campaign of sorts going as we developed the story of his leader on a side of paper. Good times. I think that really laid the ground work, then, Mage Knight clix came out a few years later, and he and I went bonkers.

Yeah, I think Star Trek Attack Wing and lotr of my collection are the games I'd probably prefer for starting the hobby as they're more approachable than 40K and can scale with literally one model per side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 PenitentJake wrote:
GW does have a line of young fiction. Probably a bit too young to read it independently, but you could read it to her. I'd pre-read it first just to be sure.

It annoys me greatly that a tiny minority of people sent so much hate to the authors of those books!

I got recommended a video on that the other day that looked sus, I fear the algorithm so didn’t click it.
But that is still crazy people take it that far, makes me sad.

Agreed. I'm in the position where these books are probably the most interesting BL products, as they're an introduction to the hobby. Some fellow hobbyists love to gatekeep to the extreme, overlooking the inconcistency of other existing fluff.

I agree LoTR / ME SBG would be a nice intro for kids. Battle Companies is super simple and lends itself to narrative play. 40K does not have that without reverting to board games or an entirely different system, one page rules, which has its own share of problems. Kill Team, IMO, should be the intro to 40K and GW has made such a mess of it.

https://youtu.be/AE0-vUCoYUQ?si=G58_bdC7InxA2CfX

excellent listen, and highly pertinent to this discussion.

I'm very new to Warhammer and while I've been eying 40k for years, decades... I never took the plunge.

I feel it has some huge barriers to entry; rules, price and skill.
On several occasions I visited GW stores to see if it's something I'd like. Some times I got an avalance of information and options, other times I didn't get any help at all. At some point I just gave up.

A few friends picked up combat patrols to play recently. They had zero experience with 40k or mini painting. I picked up a CP as well to be able to play with them.

Instead of foing research as I always do I picked up the first 2nd hand set that I could find and went from there. Got 2nd hand index, codex and rule book.
I took it from there.

Turns out 40k isn't that hard really. If you can play D&D you can play 40k.

Hobby wise it's something you have to learn. If you don't have any experience GW takes you by the hand with their painting systems.
I've always hated GW for that, because imho it prevents people to look at other materials and techniques.

But a friend of mine has zero experience and would paint with the back of the paintbrush if he isn't instructed. The GW system works perfeclty for him. So that's a good thing.

But there is a lot of 'complicated mist' around Warhammer that makes it hard to get a sense of the scope of what you are getting in to.
Combine that with the monetary/time investment you have to make to see wether you even like the game...

 Mactire wrote:

But there is a lot of 'complicated mist' around Warhammer that makes it hard to get a sense of the scope of what you are getting in to.
Combine that with the monetary/time investment you have to make to see wether you even like the game...

To be fair you can say that of almost anything, though the complicating mist can be a symptom from people who research a lot before taking something up where there's a risk that you end up confusing yourself and making something out to be way more complicated than it is because you've read so much and picked up impressions, ideas, concepts and such in the wrong order or without context.


Another thing that I think a LOT of people overlook is that whilst anyone can start a hobby - from research or just impulsive nature - the other aspect is that any hobby which has any degree of social group around it; has a portion of starting the hobby which is being welcomed into the hobby. Something I think many people overlook or assume; but being welcomed in is more than just being allowed in. It's those people that help orientate you; guide you; answer questions; provide support and more that make you part of the hobby group.

Yes we can all be independent and individual, but at the same time humans are social creatures and being part of the "group" is also important when the hobby involves a group. Even if its just sharing photos of your models online and such.

Yep, it can be said for a lot of things.
And to be fair, perhaps I could have picked up a starters box to see what's what.

I still think it's a bit harder to wrap your head around Warhammer if you know nothing about it than say, D&D.

And that leads nicely into your last point:

I totally agree about being welcomed into the hobby. That's the reason I took the plunge now and probably why I didn't do so before.
Community is very important.

I think DnD is just as complicated; its just easier on some fronts because its so heavily marketed by themselves and 3rd parties.

Warhammer in the UK is pretty strongly marketed to the point most people know what it is if you mention Warhammer or Space Marines (a little less so Games Workshop); but its nothing like as well understood (generally) as DnD.

And I'd wager DnD is stronger abroad as well.

GW are getting there year by year, their video game licences have paid off really well in that respect and if they can nail the TV series with Amazon that's another big boon. Lord of the Rings also did them a huge boost

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Not gonna lie, as a dad, I think 12 is a little young for the themes of 40k as a whole. Not judging the parent, but maybe AOS would be a far easier jumping off point? Less competitive, easier to start, etc?

I think was tends to get forgotten a lot is that many themes like that tend to go over kids heads, but 12 is plenty old enough to get it. I started at 10 and could easily tell that the Imperium weren't good guys. I started a homebrew chapter of non-Chaos renegades that were fighting to try and carve out a little peaceful empire in a small corner corner of the galaxy.

My kids now all play, they are 8, 6, and 4 and it's a great bonding experience for us, they love building and painting the models and playing simple 500pt games. They don't need to understand all the existential dread of the setting to have a good time hobbying as a family.

Honest question and I don’t even think it's OP:
My daughter is 4 - how do you introduce her into the game? I mean she watched me painting my minis and playing with my buddies and is definitely interested (like the little ones' usually are about everything ). But personally I wouldn't know where to start as 4 is still very young. I think it'd come down to me playing and she'd just throw the dice which of course is also something I guess.
What I'm asking is if your 4 old is actually playing on their own or rather supporting.

Sorry for the late response.

She was really interested in all the painting and modeling I was doing, so I took her to my shelves and asked her what her favourite was. She gravitated towards the Tyrandis immediately. I gave her a few spare Termagaunts to paint and she loved it. When her uncle saw this, he got her a Hive Tyrant for Christmas and we spent part of the day building it. (She clipped the pieces off the sprue and I trimmed them. I put on the glue and she helped put any not too tricky pieces into place.) She wanted wings which we did, but made sure it was using the standing pose to be less breakable. She then spent the rest of the day flying it around the house making munching noises. She's since picked up some Warriors, Barbgaunts, and Deathleaper (she likes the larger models) and I lend her a few extra models to make 500 points when we play.

As for where she's actually at with the games, she understands the basics. That she can can move these units a certain distance, that cover helps protect them, that they can shoot and charge things and a general understanding of what units are better against different types of enemies. Beyond that, I just run the rules in my head and tell her what she needs to roll. We leave Stratagems and secondary objectives out of the game for the moment.

One things to keep in mind is that, they will be rough with their models and they will break them. Obviously you want to teach them to be gentle, but don't' stress out about it if you're gluing things back together every so often.

Sounds like as Christmas approaches her Uncle better be given some hints - I think that sounds like a Harpy or Crone would suit her! More wings, more endless devouring - and honestly not too many delicate parts either.

 Overread wrote:
Sounds like as Christmas approaches her Uncle better be given some hints - I think that sounds like a Harpy or Crone would suit her! More wings, more endless devouring - and honestly not too many delicate parts either.

One of her brothers plays Space Marines, so we're planning on getting them Starter Set to split. Her 2 starting Termagaunts are broken beyond repair at this point (she started painting and playing with them a few months before turning 3) and she misses them, so we think she'll really like those, she also thinks the Psychophage is really cool. I was worried at first that she wasn't going to be gentle enough with the spindly Von Ryan's Leapers, but she's only broken Deathleaper twice in the past 6 months, so I think she'll be able to manage.

I dunno, I would advise anyone who starts this to do it for the hobby aspect, and the game is 2ndary.

 easysauce wrote:
I dunno, I would advise anyone who starts this to do it for the hobby aspect, and the game is 2ndary.

And I would advise people to do the parts they like and engage with the rest only as they see fit.