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Any advice on what to do now? I was told that the index detachment was still going to be valid when the drama all started, but I am fairly sure at this point that that is not the case.

KT Cassuis
Artimis
Watchmaster
Venerable Dread
Venerable Dread
10 DW Vets
10 Vanguard Vets

I was shooting for 1k points, but it looks like I only have 370 points of DW now and 480 "black with a silver arm" SM (Cassuis is just gone, and the Dreads can be used as just dreads). Not sure what to even buy to fill back out, since all my models for DW are firstborn so they don't look stupid (I had not intended to buy much more then 1k or so). I'd wanted a Blackstar but not having DT makes them.....well.

As a collector of Deathwatch I feel your pain.

The Index is still currently on the Warhammer Community website, so that's something. Whether it's still there in a few weeks time is unclear though. Another option would be to use Legends. How feasible it is for you to use Legends or outdated Indices is up to your gaming group to decide. Of course if you're planning to play in tournaments this limits your options.

Personally I'm going to look into using the Space Marine codex with allied Imperial Agents for when I plan to run pure Deathwatch. I do have some Primaris Deathwatch models so this seems like the best compromise for me for now.

 CynosureEldar wrote:
Any advice on what to do now? I was told that the index detachment was still going to be valid when the drama all started, but I am fairly sure at this point that that is not the case.

KT Cassuis
Artimis
Watchmaster
Venerable Dread
Venerable Dread
10 DW Vets
10 Vanguard Vets

I was shooting for 1k points, but it looks like I only have 370 points of DW now and 480 "black with a silver arm" SM (Cassuis is just gone, and the Dreads can be used as just dreads). Not sure what to even buy to fill back out, since all my models for DW are firstborn so they don't look stupid (I had not intended to buy much more then 1k or so). I'd wanted a Blackstar but not having DT makes them.....well.

KT Cassius has legends rules, while Artemis and the Watchmaster have rules. venerable dreads can be used in space marines (although they've been renamed to just dreadnoughts). veterans are as playable as ever, and you can use the vanguard vets as assault intercessors with jump packs

To echo the others, the Watchwaster, Artemis, and Deathwatch Kill Team (formerly Veterans) are all in the Codex. In an Incursion game, you will only be able to pick one Character and one Kill Team as their Retinue unit, which is a pity given how Kill Team Cassius breaks down (if you don't use the Legends Datasheet):

Chaplain Cassius: Space Marine Chaplain
■ 8 Kill Team Veterans: (makes 5-model Kill Team, 2 characters, and...)
◦ Vael Donatus: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Zameon Gydrael: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Rodricus Grytt: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Antor Delassio: Space Marine Captain with Jump Pack
◦ Edryc Setorax: Counts as Assault Intercessor Sergeant
◦ Jensus Natorian: Space Marine Librarian
◦ Drenn Redblade: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Ennox Sorrlock : Deathwatch Veteran
■ 1 Kill Team Terminator (Garran Branatar): Space Marine Terminator
■ 1 Kill Team Biker (Jetek Suberei): Space Marine Outrider

The two Dreadnaughts and the Vanguard Veterans are Space Marine units. This makes breaking Kill Team Cassius down into Space Marine characters actually attractive since that gives you more Space Marine models to fill out a Space Marine with Deathwatch assistance force.

 alextroy wrote:
To echo the others, the Watchwaster, Artemis, and Deathwatch Kill Team (formerly Veterans) are all in the Codex. In an Incursion game, you will only be able to pick one Character and one Kill Team as their Retinue unit, which is a pity given how Kill Team Cassius breaks down (if you don't use the Legends Datasheet):

Chaplain Cassius: Space Marine Chaplain
■ 8 Kill Team Veterans: (makes 5-model Kill Team, 2 characters, and...)
◦ Vael Donatus: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Zameon Gydrael: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Rodricus Grytt: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Antor Delassio: Space Marine Captain with Jump Pack
◦ Edryc Setorax: Counts as Assault Intercessor Sergeant
◦ Jensus Natorian: Space Marine Librarian
◦ Drenn Redblade: Deathwatch Veteran
◦ Ennox Sorrlock : Deathwatch Veteran
■ 1 Kill Team Terminator (Garran Branatar): Space Marine Terminator
■ 1 Kill Team Biker (Jetek Suberei): Space Marine Outrider

The two Dreadnaughts and the Vanguard Veterans are Space Marine units. This makes breaking Kill Team Cassius down into Space Marine characters actually attractive since that gives you more Space Marine models to fill out a Space Marine with Deathwatch assistance force.

This....this might be where I go actually. I don't *think* they'll squat the vets/Artemis/watchmaster at least for a year, and I can proxy into outriders/sternguard/terms/devastators/assault marines(intercessors) into 10th (the two jump packs can go into the VV). I'll be sure to magnetize the vets as well in case they do squat them as well. (and when they squat the VV and devs, I can play those as the jump pack primaris and desolation marines respectively)

Now to find firstborn models so they all match together

Fingers crossed that DW come back so we don't all gotta play "black clad marines with silver arms" forever. (Lets be real, legends only exists to be customer service theater)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frankly I wanted to play "silly weapon loadouts with even sillier shenanigans," but I'll just have to live with GW's stupid ass decisions. I've been buying second hand models (GW rarely gets my money directly anymore cause they suck), but frankly the prices on the second hand firstborn are insane, so I might have to just bite the bullet and engage in other means of procurement to flesh out this project.

 CynosureEldar wrote:

This....this might be where I go actually. I don't *think* they'll squat the vets/Artemis/watchmaster at least for a year, and I can proxy into outriders/sternguard/terms/devastators/assault marines(intercessors) into 10th (the two jump packs can go into the VV). I'll be sure to magnetize the vets as well in case they do squat them as well. (and when they squat the VV and devs, I can play those as the jump pack primaris and desolation marines respectively)

I don't think they squat either, I suspect they go back to being their own codex supplement in 11th. Especially if Grey Knights sticks around seperately.

 CynosureEldar wrote:

Fingers crossed that DW come back so we don't all gotta play "black clad marines with silver arms" forever. (Lets be real, legends only exists to be customer service theater)

Theater or not, Legends are still legal game rules so long as you're not in a tourney.

And it doesn't sound like you're tourney bound with this force.
So I don't get why you'd choose to jump through all sorts of "counts as" hoops & roll your nose up at Legends vs just playing team Cassius as Team Cassius....

Breton wrote:

 CynosureEldar wrote:

This....this might be where I go actually. I don't *think* they'll squat the vets/Artemis/watchmaster at least for a year, and I can proxy into outriders/sternguard/terms/devastators/assault marines(intercessors) into 10th (the two jump packs can go into the VV). I'll be sure to magnetize the vets as well in case they do squat them as well. (and when they squat the VV and devs, I can play those as the jump pack primaris and desolation marines respectively)

I don't think they squat either, I suspect they go back to being their own codex supplement in 11th. Especially if Grey Knights sticks around seperately.

I doubt GW will go back to making Deathwatch a Codex Supplement. Much easier on their design schedule to leave them as part of Agents of the Imperium.

Roll out a Primaris Deathwatch Kill Team via Kill Team to replace the First Born Veterans kit, produce a new Primaris Watchmaster/Watch Captain kit for the next Codex release, and retire the Upgrades kit. Easy 11th Edition update.

Sorry for you man, that sucks :(

Play your Legends units. They've still got rules, and unless you're trying to netlist tournament play, they'll work just fine.

I had a really long, well written out response, but my fething phone refreshed the page and lost it, so here's the bullet points:

- KT Cassuis has been hamstrung since the top of this edition, and now they will not be fixed, and will be deleted in the next Ed.

- I was planning on counts-as for the various firstborn anyways, since GW has been clearly squatting firstborn for some time now. I also have magnets because I assumed that weapon loadout would get messed with in the future as usual. I did not think I would have to break up KTC nor that I would lose access to the various KT squads, DW not-inf vets, and the filler in the SM codex.

- I only wanted maybe one or two more units so I could swap out things that are hella weak or hella strong, since GW has never been able to balance rules, but now I have to hunt down a ton of firstborn to make black SM, instead of the cool bespoke vets units of the DW (I have blue SM, having two SM is silly - however I've mildly became infatuated with painting DW so guess I'll have two instead of just dumping them in a box.)

 CynosureEldar wrote:
I had a really long, well written out response, but my fething phone refreshed the page and lost it, so here's the bullet points:

- KT Cassuis has been hamstrung since the top of this edition, and now they will not be fixed, and will be deleted in the next Ed.

- I was planning on counts-as for the various firstborn anyways, since GW has been clearly squatting firstborn for some time now. I also have magnets because I assumed that weapon loadout would get messed with in the future as usual. I did not think I would have to break up KTC nor that I would lose access to the various KT squads, DW not-inf vets, and the filler in the SM codex.

- I only wanted maybe one or two more units so I could swap out things that are hella weak or hella strong, since GW has never been able to balance rules, but now I have to hunt down a ton of firstborn to make black SM, instead of the cool bespoke vets units of the DW (I have blue SM, having two SM is silly - however I've mildly became infatuated with painting DW so guess I'll have two instead of just dumping them in a box.)

I'm going to repeat - be careful doing anything drastic. I've been where you are, and I outlasted GW. Sisters came and went and came back. Squats came and went and came back. My Bretonians and Tomb Kings came and went and came back. Keywords came and went and came back. A hundred other ideas too. Even the Green Party headquarters doesn't recycle as hard as GW does.

I really hoped for a limited firstborn effort at least. Bit of fluff saying they are dumping incompatible first born marines from chapters into deathwatch units etc.
Keep the Proteos squad, give them a big range of transport options (Rhinos and variants, Raiders and variants, fliers), standard set of characters (the leader, apoth, chap, librarian, tech, choice of normal/terminator armour) highlight how a watchtower pretty much maxes out at 1500 points and would remain a fun little army.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I really hoped for a limited firstborn effort at least.

There's the flaw in the plan, we're getting close to the end for the little guys in 40k.

I think, generally speaking, if you're hoping for DW to go back to "four frag cannons in a squad" or "storm bolters and storm shields on each member", you're not going to get that any time soon.

Was more hoping for them to the SF of the marines elite forces. I really did like the mix and match squads to the extent did some narrative CSM stuff where their long war veterans got to make similar squads.

Honestly, I’ve had a blast with 2 test games so far. You have to be willing to add legends in (I used the terminator squad) plus be open to adding units that used to exist (vanvets and dreadnoughts). I never cared for the Primaris kill teams that much so now all of those units are a regular space marine army.
Vanvets with heavy thunderhammers just go in my kill team as heavy thunderhammers.
It’s actually playing like I started with deathwatch so not really missing the changes too much.
You could also play with some of the agents rules as specialist kill team members, especially the assassins.

Probably going to get my second blackstar painted up this week.

 bullyboy wrote:
Honestly, I’ve had a blast with 2 test games so far. You have to be willing to add legends in (I used the terminator squad) plus be open to adding units that used to exist (vanvets and dreadnoughts). I never cared for the Primaris kill teams that much so now all of those units are a regular space marine army.
Vanvets with heavy thunderhammers just go in my kill team as heavy thunderhammers.
It’s actually playing like I started with deathwatch so not really missing the changes too much.
You could also play with some of the agents rules as specialist kill team members, especially the assassins.

Probably going to get my second blackstar painted up this week.

This. I think Codex: Imperial Agents is a good example of a codex done more with narrative in mind than competitive, and I am all for it.

As others have said..legend sis your best bet. A pure deathwatch list, though possible, isn't overly playable. There just isn't enough AT to kill vehicles or large creatures.

The agents of the inquisition codex ought to have been a PDF. Forcing you to pay $60 just so you get to know your army was invalidated was pretty awful.

ender502

 ender502 wrote:

The agents of the inquisition codex ought to have been a PDF

I don't know about that- I just think it should have been a better book.

Having four detachments and Crusade content is better than not having that. Removal of the Deathwatch is a separate issue; again, the book shouldn't have been cut, it should have been made better. Had the DW supplement merely been improved, DW Kill Team still could have been in the book just as GK Termies and BSS are- a single requisitioned unit with the Keyword to benefit from the Ordo Xenos unit. Then the extra space could have been used to add land raiders, valkyries, tech priest, crusaders and DCAs.

It wasn't great- on that you and I agree. But why would you wish for a half assed PDF when you could wish for a better book?

 PenitentJake wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

The agents of the inquisition codex ought to have been a PDF

I don't know about that- I just think it should have been a better book.

Having four detachments and Crusade content is better than not having that. Removal of the Deathwatch is a separate issue; again, the book shouldn't have been cut, it should have been made better. Had the DW supplement merely been improved, DW Kill Team still could have been in the book just as GK Termies and BSS are- a single requisitioned unit with the Keyword to benefit from the Ordo Xenos unit. Then the extra space could have been used to add land raiders, valkyries, tech priest, crusaders and DCAs.

It wasn't great- on that you and I agree. But why would you wish for a half assed PDF when you could wish for a better book?

I think it should have been parallel to a Deathwatch Codex Supplement, not replacement for. i.e. Here's what DW have in the supplement, here's what crosses over to Agents of the Imperium and how it slots in so that an IG or IK army could have added 2 squads of DW and a Captain or some such but it would have been really limited cross over.

Breton wrote:


I think it should have been parallel to a Deathwatch Codex Supplement, not replacement for. i.e. Here's what DW have in the supplement, here's what crosses over to Agents of the Imperium and how it slots in so that an IG or IK army could have added 2 squads of DW and a Captain or some such but it would have been really limited cross over.

Right now, you can take a Watchmaster and two units of DW and put them into Guard or Knights. The most you can do in 2k is Watchmaster, Artemis, 2 KTs (which are actually DW Vets now) and a Blackstar- this burns 3 Retinue and 2 Character slots.

So the only thing that would need to change for your vision to be achievable is that the DW supplement should still be there, and as I wrote above, I totally agree. While the Agents dex got the few units of DW that GW decided to keep official, the Agents Dex and the demise of the DW Supplement are two separate issues. People are looking like the Agents dex like it's the cause of the DW demise, but it wasn't. GW could very, very easily have done both.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Was more hoping for them to the SF of the marines elite forces. I really did like the mix and match squads to the extent did some narrative CSM stuff where their long war veterans got to make similar squads.

See, mix and match I like - what I don't like is "spam the best options so that all five guys in the squad have the same gear", and I'm glad to see an end of it.

For me, I really like the way they'd be hypothetically more laid out in Kill Team (the game) - individual specialists within the squad, who each bring a different skill. But what we got on table in 40k wasn't "mix and match squads", it was "4x frag cannon" or "5x storm bolters and storm shields", and that doesn't feel "mix and match" to me.

My honest opinion is that Deathwatch should never have been a full army. They should have only been Veterans on foot, Veterans with jump packs, Veterans with scout armour, Veterans in Terminator Armour, with a *handful* of vehicles (Blackstar, Rhino, Land Raider, Repulsor, Dreadnought)*. The wargear options should've encouraged a variety of weapons within the unit (which most 40k players hate), and as an army, they should have been limited to how they are in Agents - you take them to *supplement* an existing army. One Kill Team, Leader and Transport per 1000 points, etc.

And have it so that you have to choose before the game if you're going to draw from a list of Deathwatch specific stratagems, or, if you happen to be playing as Marines as well, you can forgo all the Deathwatch strategems and use the normal Marine ones. That represents how closely your Deathwatch are fighting alongside the Marines: if they're fighting as part of the same force, or if the Deathwatch are achieving their own agenda separately to the other Marines.


*Do away with the difference between Primaris and firstborn. Build the unit more like how it's built in Kill Team - you must take 5 Deathwatch Veterans per unit, but that could be:
Tacticus Veteran (this is your "basic" - special issue bolt rifles, shotguns, combi-weapons, power weapons, storm shields, etc) - gives the unit fall back and shoot/charge?
Fire Support Veteran 0-2 (frag cannons, heavy bolters, plasma incinerators) - no buff to the unit, their weapon is the reason you take them
Close Support Veteran 0-2 (heavy thunder hammers) - some kind of disruption/MW effect on charge?
Gravis Veteran (this is special issue heavy bolt rifles, melta rifles, boltstorm/flamestorm gauntlets) - gives the unit -1 to all AP incoming?
Phobos Veteran (this is special issue bolt carbines, bolt sniper rifles, combat knives, etc and either no DS bubble, target marking, camo cloak or terror troops depending on which wargear) - gives a scout move to the unit?

Don't mix jump packs, Scouts and Terminators in the same squad.

Okay, I'm just spitballing now. But the core of Deathwatch should have been the makeup of the unit is customisable, they shouldn't all just be showing up with the same weapon, and they shouldn't be fielding as a full army. Two squads, plus a leader and vehicle support each in a 2000 point game is plenty.

@Smudge

My main issue with the "mix and match" of DW is how painfully slow it is to play with/against.

Units that have 5 different weapons just slow the game down to a crawl for no payoff. It's the same reason people don't take the default (mixed) loadout for devastator/havocs; it's slow as gak and you don't need to be a competitive player to realise that it does nothing on the tabletop

I agree with both, honestly. I've played DW since launch and its always been a struggle between what could be cool and what actually works. In a lot of ways, 10th is as close as they've gotten, with the Vets actually getting to use their cool weapons, but SIA being a mess.

I expect in 11th they'll probably stick to Agents but I do hope for a Primaris kit. What I think could work is a 5 man kit that includes 3 Intercessors, a Jump Intercessor and a Terminator. Give each guy a couple different weapon options and you could make something that captures what they were going for but never really pulled off.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
@Smudge

My main issue with the "mix and match" of DW is how painfully slow it is to play with/against.

Units that have 5 different weapons just slow the game down to a crawl for no payoff. It's the same reason people don't take the default (mixed) loadout for devastator/havocs; it's slow as gak and you don't need to be a competitive player to realise that it does nothing on the tabletop

However, four or five of the same weapon just isn't "Deathwatch". It feels way too gamey - either it needs to be made somewhat useful on tabletop, or Deathwatch shouldn't be playing in games larger than Kill Team.

If people like Deathwatch for having a varied arsenal, then their arsenal should be varied, and not just spamming the same exotic combination. If Deathwatch having actually mixed and matched weaponry is a problem, then they shouldn't be fielded in 40k, and should be relegated to Kill Team alone. But I genuinely cannot overstate how much I detest "four frag cannon" or "5x storm shields and storm bolter" Deathwatch.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
@Smudge

My main issue with the "mix and match" of DW is how painfully slow it is to play with/against.

Units that have 5 different weapons just slow the game down to a crawl for no payoff. It's the same reason people don't take the default (mixed) loadout for devastator/havocs; it's slow as gak and you don't need to be a competitive player to realise that it does nothing on the tabletop

However, four or five of the same weapon just isn't "Deathwatch". It feels way too gamey - either it needs to be made somewhat useful on tabletop, or Deathwatch shouldn't be playing in games larger than Kill Team.

If people like Deathwatch for having a varied arsenal, then their arsenal should be varied, and not just spamming the same exotic combination. If Deathwatch having actually mixed and matched weaponry is a problem, then they shouldn't be fielded in 40k, and should be relegated to Kill Team alone. But I genuinely cannot overstate how much I detest "four frag cannon" or "5x storm shields and storm bolter" Deathwatch.

I'm 100% on board with the idea that DW doesn't belong in full size 40k tbh. I think knights and flyers belong more than the concept of DW.

It is however a really awesome concept for a killteam force and would 90% be the first one i would go for as an imperium faction, with heavy conversion of course

 PenitentJake wrote:

 ender502 wrote:

The agents of the inquisition codex ought to have been a PDF

I don't know about that- I just think it should have been a better book.

Having four detachments and Crusade content is better than not having that. Removal of the Deathwatch is a separate issue; again, the book shouldn't have been cut, it should have been made better. Had the DW supplement merely been improved, DW Kill Team still could have been in the book just as GK Termies and BSS are- a single requisitioned unit with the Keyword to benefit from the Ordo Xenos unit. Then the extra space could have been used to add land raiders, valkyries, tech priest, crusaders and DCAs.

It wasn't great- on that you and I agree. But why would you wish for a half assed PDF when you could wish for a better book?

With what they gave us, it should have been a PDF.

A better book? Difficult. My biggest gripe (besides neutering an already weak performing army) was that they limited the way an inquisitor could lead an army made up of disparate parts. YES! They can join any army more easily now but that isn't the same as being able to LEAD an army. The fluff is full of inquisitors commanding entire armies. They really can't do that unless that army is contained within the agents of the imperium codex.

meh...just a sub par and money grab effort from GW.

ender502


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
@Smudge

My main issue with the "mix and match" of DW is how painfully slow it is to play with/against.

Units that have 5 different weapons just slow the game down to a crawl for no payoff. It's the same reason people don't take the default (mixed) loadout for devastator/havocs; it's slow as gak and you don't need to be a competitive player to realise that it does nothing on the tabletop

However, four or five of the same weapon just isn't "Deathwatch". It feels way too gamey - either it needs to be made somewhat useful on tabletop, or Deathwatch shouldn't be playing in games larger than Kill Team.

If people like Deathwatch for having a varied arsenal, then their arsenal should be varied, and not just spamming the same exotic combination. If Deathwatch having actually mixed and matched weaponry is a problem, then they shouldn't be fielded in 40k, and should be relegated to Kill Team alone. But I genuinely cannot overstate how much I detest "four frag cannon" or "5x storm shields and storm bolter" Deathwatch.

I'm 100% on board with the idea that DW doesn't belong in full size 40k tbh. I think knights and flyers belong more than the concept of DW.

It is however a really awesome concept for a killteam force and would 90% be the first one i would go for as an imperium faction, with heavy conversion of course

Hard disagree. DeathWatch should be an elite level army like the grey knights or custodes. Points about them "slowing" the game down are super valid. It'd suck but just make DW weapons 3 modes (AT-short range, Horde-like a short range D3 flamer, Long Range - precision bolter shot) to simulate their specialist ammo and the whole squad has to use 1 mode. DO keep them as just deathwatch kill teams and perhaps terminators and scouts/reavers. You could have some fun with a crazy list. Keep the points costs high so you have a relatively small army.

ender502

 ender502 wrote:
Hard disagree. DeathWatch should be an elite level army like the grey knights or custodes.

Another hot take, but those also could do with being made into not-full-armies.

It's a ship that's sailed, but if I was redesigining, GK, DW, and Custodes would all be "you may add a unit from this faction into your army", not a full army in their own right. Or, "no more than 1000 points of this faction may be taken in one list" - a small game, sure, but anything larger? The focus isn't on that one faction any more.

But hell, at least the Custodes and GK have a wider selection of their own units that aren't just "Space Marines painted black with a silver shoulder pad".

Again, I'll stand by it and say that Deathwatch should not have the full Space Marine arsenal. They should be centred on *Kill Teams* with a *variety* of weapons, rules which let them act with great flexibility, control and autonomy, and be supported by their own few leaders and vehicles (Rhinos/Razorbacks, Corvus Blackstars, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts), and be taken as a supplement to an existing army. If you want an all-Deathwatch game/army, then you should either be playing Kill Team, or be limited to only 1000 point games.

Points about them "slowing" the game down are super valid. It'd suck but just make DW weapons 3 modes (AT-short range, Horde-like a short range D3 flamer, Long Range - precision bolter shot) to simulate their specialist ammo and the whole squad has to use 1 mode.

How would that work if members of the squad have drastically different weapons? Let's say, a shotgun, a frag cannon, a bolter and power sword, a storm shield/power sword, and a heavy thunder hammer.

What's the plan there?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Points about them "slowing" the game down are super valid. It'd suck but just make DW weapons 3 modes (AT-short range, Horde-like a short range D3 flamer, Long Range - precision bolter shot) to simulate their specialist ammo and the whole squad has to use 1 mode.

How would that work if members of the squad have drastically different weapons? Let's say, a shotgun, a frag cannon, a bolter and power sword, a storm shield/power sword, and a heavy thunder hammer.

What's the plan there?

It'd probably feel as crappy as lumping all the Tyranid Warrior melee weapons together.