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https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/g5ot1app/warhammer-40000-balance-update-points-changes-are-here-with-the-new-munitorum-field-manual/

GW has just released the new MFM. Not sure it fixes some of the problems but Thousand Sons too a fairly solid beating! Necrons also took a lot of nerfs to popular units, which feels a little odd given that they've been doing OK, but not brilliant, recently. Drukhari looks bad, but probably opens up some better options for them now.

No fix for the SM problem other than fairly blunt points changes. BA somehow kept their Fights First enhancement at a reasonable cost.

Poor, poor marines. Better luck in December I guess. :(

Kroot got a massive points cut, far more that I would have expected given that they already are a sleeper powerhouse, even after the nerf to their busted redeploy shenanigans.

With the numbers I'm looking at, it's only a matter of time until one of the tops players put a collection together and takes out a major event. Feels like GW is pushing them real hard, but people aren't seeing it because they aren't as obviously broken some things have been in the past.

For reference, the competitive list I've been running which is still undefeated (though I haven't been able to make it out to a big tournament since the last nerf, so take that as you will), dropped a full 200 points.

Kroot feel a little like CSM Cultists. The detachment was written off as a meme by most people, but I think it's close to being very good with the new points drops. Yes, Kroot lack some options to make a rounded army, but you don't need to take only Kroot in their detachment and I think there may be a good army hiding in their somewhere.

Slipspace wrote:
Kroot feel a little like CSM Cultists. The detachment was written off as a meme by most people, but I think it's close to being very good with the new points drops. Yes, Kroot lack some options to make a rounded army, but you don't need to take only Kroot in their detachment and I think there may be a good army hiding in their somewhere.

I get why it seems like that on paper, but as someone who also plays CSM Cultists, I can assure you that Kroot are the FAR stronger army.

- Kroot are far more moible. Even if the Desperate Devotion rule technically gives the cultists a longer movement on average, the 7" scout move more that makes up for that difference. Also the inconsistency of Dark Pact means you can't guarantee that move range when you need it.
- Damage output on Kroot is also much higher for their infantry. Yes, Lethal Hits are great, but with no longer having Ranged Cultist blobs, you're reliant on your smaller number of Traitor Guard for ranged damage output in that regards, and again, Dark Pacts are not terribly consistent. Kroot on the other hand get an extra point in strength, and often the +1 to hit and wound that is reasonably easy to turn on does much more consistent damage.
- Kroot are also far more durable to anti-infantry fire with both Stealth and their 5+ Invul. Cultists with their 6+ save that might as well not be a save get mowed down so much faster. Yes Kroot are a little more expensive at 65 for 10 as apposed to 50, but even if you added 3 more bodies to the cultist unit, it would still die far faster.
- For larger units, Krootox have always been low key just a great unit for a damage output to points ratio and now that three of them match the Accursed Cultust unit in points, it's a lot easier to draw direct parallels there too. While adding the Dark Commune to the Cultists does give them some good buffs, it is literally the exact same ones the Kroot get by default, 5+invul and +1 to hit and wound. While their melee profiles are somewhat comparable, the Krootox also has an amazing shooting profile as well that is just as good, whereas the Accused have none.
- Hounds being incredibly fast give Kroot astounding board control, able to pen larger units into areas on turn 1 to take them out of the fight for a turn or two. Cultists just don't have that kind of additional utility in their army.

Overall, the Chaos Cult is let down by their lack of diversity and durability. They are pretty good when you can actually get them in close, but they have nowhere near enough durability or speed to effectively close that gap without getting chewed to ribbons. Even when they do get close though, they randomness of the Dark Pact buff can lead to some units just ineffectively slapping the enemy until the buff decides to turn on.

On the other hand, Kroot are incredibly consistent. you get to control when and where you put your buffs, and there are enough that you can bring down even high value targets with enough weight of fire. The army is very durable with either Stealth or T6 on all their units, plus a 5+ invul. Despite being known as a melee army, they are actually very well balanced, shooting and fighting on almost equal terms. It's the overall speed of the army though that catches people unaware. You have the midfield fully flooded by turn one while using hounds to pen them into their deployment zone, and are all over them by turn two. Even if they are able to eventually chew through your massive army, you're so far ahead on points it almost never matters.

Also, I think adding Tau into the Kroot army is a trap. Kroot infantry / cavalry are way better than Tau, and if you want big guns, you need a solid enough mass of marker lights to make them effective which takes too much away from the Kroot army. It also gives the enemy big guns a juicy target, where they are much less able to make back their points against the lower costed Kroot. The only time I've found any improvement on that front is just by adding Darkstrider solo as he's a great objective holder / deep strike screen, especially combined with a Lone Spear with the Kroothawk Flock.

That doesn't seem to be the case. Chaos Cults have won multiple large tournaments and placed well at many more. As far as I'm aware Kroot-heavy armies have done neither.

Cult armies don't need diversity when the AC/DC blobs are stupidly good. They have excellent durability with the way the mixed profile works, plus the ability to get an Invulnerable save. They're extremely fast, even with the change to surge moves. Dark Pacts are extremely consistent - you can't actually fail to get the buff, you just take the MW if you roll below Ld.

I think there may be more play in Kroot now, but I still think Chaos Cult armies will likely be better. There's no question which was better previously.

Slipspace wrote:
That doesn't seem to be the case. Chaos Cults have won multiple large tournaments and placed well at many more. As far as I'm aware Kroot-heavy armies have done neither.

Cult armies don't need diversity when the AC/DC blobs are stupidly good. They have excellent durability with the way the mixed profile works, plus the ability to get an Invulnerable save. They're extremely fast, even with the change to surge moves. Dark Pacts are extremely consistent - you can't actually fail to get the buff, you just take the MW if you roll below Ld.

I think there may be more play in Kroot now, but I still think Chaos Cult armies will likely be better. There's no question which was better previously.

True, but I think that's more from the fact that few if any competitive players have a Kroot army. The army is strong, but it's strength isn't as apparent as many others and it's skill celling is pretty high, so it takes a lot of practice. If there are other armies that top players all already own and are practiced with, it makes more sense for them to play those then to jump ship to Kroot unless the army was obviously busted. It is very strong, but not to the point where it's glaringly obvious, which is why I don't think we've seen much of them.

With the wide sweeping points cuts we've seen, it might be enough to push it over the edge and make more of the higher up players take notice. Time will tell I guess.

Just wish we had more of a competitive scene nearby so I could get some practical evidence to support. Consistently winning small tournaments with Kroot is still a bit of a big fish in a small pond scenario for me, so I can only personally attest to that much.

I'd agree with the analysis. At least on paper Kroot seem consistently faster, tougher and more lethal than cultists. You can have a broadly similar number of small squads. Not really sure why you can't play them in a similar way and get success. Especially in a world where Kroot have gone down and Cultists have gone up.

With that said the argument that they don't appear because the pro's just don't have any Kroot could be right - but isn't overly convincing. I mean every edition, we see factions which have a tiny % of players suddenly rise up because they appear to be good. Pro's can usually beg/steal/borrow minis from somewhere to get hold of them as required.

I guess though if you were going "pure kroot" you'd be starting almost from scratch, and it might take longer for the models to get into circulation.

As always a lot of the problems with units, especialy the bad ones, are hard to impossible to fix with points. What they need is a rules change or even changes.

The custodes dreadnoughts problem, a far as players goes, is that they are too slow. Same goes for custodes bikes or their chapter master, no one is going to take a worse character then one that costs 110 or 100points aka 40 pts less then the bad one.

Marine players problems are that, no matter how much the testers and GW would like everyone to play ultramarines with 3 special characters, a lot of people don't want that.

GK units that aren't used are bad because of cross fire nerfs to indirect, wierd samefication of unit rules of armies, which aren't the same.

Makes some of the "fixes" downgrades funny. The DA will now...take the same army minus a unit of scouts or one less JAS unit. Meanwhile BT get their lore accurate army go 300+ pts up in points, because the army is problematic in TEAM EVENTS and because of the cross polination with the sm codex. lol.

Worse part is that most of the armies aren't even designed to function without being played almost like a tournament build or stricktly as one. That is why we get all those stories from professionals , how faction X is perfectly fine, you just need to play this one specific detachment, with this specific build...oh you want to play the Kastellan Robots or an Imperial Fist Anvil Force....why would you want to do that?

But hey for anyone whose changes didn't wreck or made their list better :thumbs up:. For everyon else time to follow the good old 8th ed GK mantra "maybe the next FAQ will fix it".

Karol wrote:
As always a lot of the problems with units, especialy the bad ones, are hard to impossible to fix with points. What they need is a rules change or even changes.

The custodes dreadnoughts problem, a far as players goes, is that they are too slow. Same goes for custodes bikes or their chapter master, no one is going to take a worse character then one that costs 110 or 100points aka 40 pts less then the bad one.

So... Do points fix things or don't they, in your opinion?

Karol wrote:
As always a lot of the problems with units, especialy the bad ones, are hard to impossible to fix with points. What they need is a rules change or even changes.

The custodes dreadnoughts problem, a far as players goes, is that they are too slow. Same goes for custodes bikes or their chapter master, no one is going to take a worse character then one that costs 110 or 100points aka 40 pts less then the bad one.

Custodes Contemptor Dreads are as fast as the various non-Primaris dreads used by SM players (6"). And their Telemons are equal speed to the Brutalis/Ballistus/Redemptor (8")
If the Custodes players are having trouble using their dreads I'd suspect the issue has to do with something other than speed.

And if you think the dreads are too slow? Then tell me why I'd want any of the foot slogging characters. Thier strength is in melee. Well, my capt on bike can get there much quicker - and has a better gun.

Karol wrote:
GK units that aren't used are bad because of cross fire nerfs to indirect, wierd samefication of unit rules of armies, which aren't the same.

So you're going to try & convince us that because indirect fire was nerfed, now Purgators are a bad unit?
Personally I don't believe you as I've gotten plenty of good use out of my 5 man squads each toting x4 psi-cannon. I find their value in them being a heavy weapons squad that I can re-deploy each round if needs be. That's why I put them in my list. Them also having an indirect fire mode? That's just a bonus. Do I wish it were an even better bonus? Sure. But while I wish I'll still make use of the current rule as needed.

Karol wrote:
Worse part is that most of the armies aren't even designed to function without being played almost like a tournament build or stricktly as one. That is why we get all those stories from professionals , how faction X is perfectly fine, you just need to play this one specific detachment, with this specific build...oh you want to play the Kastellan Robots or an Imperial Fist Anvil Force....why would you want to do that?

Answers to that question:
1) Why wouldn't I want to?
2) These & plenty of other options are just cool. Maybe I feel like a challenge, maybe I just like the look of the models/units, etc
3) Because not every game is a tourney game. Sure, no matter what I bring I'll try my best to win with it. But at the end of the evening? It really doesn't matter if I've won or lost as long as a fun game was had. And as long as I'm playing an army I like (virtually all of them), built in a way that pleases me, & not playing some ? I'm very likely to have a fun game.

Karol wrote:
But hey for anyone whose changes didn't wreck or made their list better :thumbs up:. For everyone else time to follow the good old 8th ed GK mantra "maybe the next FAQ will fix it".

With my Purgation squads getting cheaper my GK list did indeed get better.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So... Do points fix things or don't they, in your opinion?

In most cases of bad units they do not. Now of course GW could go all out crazy and say that from tomorrow onwards a lets say custodes cost 25 pts and their jetbikes are 35each, but that won't happen. For good or too good units points can limit the use, if the points changes are drastic (black templar horde), but you may as well achive the DA effect where the powerful stuff is still run only now the army has one less scout unit or one less jump dude unit.

The problem with point fixes is that while they don't help the bad units that much, they often kill armies. Now what ever this is good or bad is probably a matter of faction like/dislike, but people I think should generaly not be losing an army after spending a lot of money on them. GW also often does this strange back door nerfs. They know X is the real problem, but instead changing the rules for X, they rise the points for every unit in the game that shares a mechanic with X. Venguard vets getting a points hike, because they were popular in BA armis with a jump pack Sang Priest(and option that no longer exists), for all marines is stupid.

Custodes Contemptor Dreads are as fast as the various non-Primaris dreads used by SM players (6"). And their Telemons are equal speed to the Brutalis/Ballistus/Redemptor (8")

Melee units that can't go through walls on 10th ed boards can not be moving 6". They can't even deep strike like they could in 9th ed. Also I would like to point out that the "regular" slow dreadnoughts are not use in any marine army.
The Telamon also has worse guns, costs more points , has access to worse stratagems and army rules and it is really bad when you compare the Shoty Telamon with the shoty Balistus. And a melee Telamon is slower brutalis. Brutalis the primaris dreadnought that space marine players don't use, with only worse dreadnought one being the DC BA one (not counting the OG dread).

If the Custodes players are having trouble using their dreads I'd suspect the issue has to do with something other than speed

.
yes it is not just speed. It is resiliance, point costs, the fact that the army to function needs so many must take units that there isn't enough points left to run multiple dreads and a single one doesn't work.

And if you think the dreads are too slow? Then tell me why I'd want any of the foot slogging characters. Thier strength is in melee.

look at cutodes characters, who is being run? brother captins? no. Trajan the beat stick? no. Allarus captins? no, because there is no unit to run them with. Custodes characters are one inq, which also make one (1) unit of custodes guard unit being worth taken. Brother captin, which help with charges and are the cheapest. And Valerian who is used with wardens to stack defensive buffs. So yeah the custodes characters, that do get run, are run for speed (champion) or to have double turn of shoting etc. If custodes could take blade champions with jump packs they would run 3 of them. If they could get warden rules without attached characters, they would probably want to run 1-2 characters max.

Custodes are right now a slow melee army with a lot of 50/50s(calladius) and a game play that is based on stat checks. And stat check armies only function when most armies, especialy the good and/or popular ones, can't easily pass the check. In the game state we have right now, a custodes player that sits down in front of an opponent who plays necron or any good shoting army loses automaticly. They will not win on primary/secondary, they can't kill their opponents army bar dice miracles and to top it all of, because of how slow they are, they can't even do secret missions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

So you're going to try & convince us that because indirect fire was nerfed, now Purgators are a bad unit?
Personally I don't believe you as I've gotten plenty of good use out of my 5 man squads each toting x4 psi-cannon. I find their value in them being a heavy weapons squad that I can re-deploy each round if needs be. That's why I put them in my list. Them also having an indirect fire mode? That's just a bonus. Do I wish it were an even better bonus? Sure. But while I wish I'll still make use of the current rule as needed.

I don't use power armoured GK. I haven't used them in 8th, in 9th and I won't do it now. A unit of purgators offers no substential fire power, they die easy, they don't don't create a redundancy like taking another NDK etc. Also the biggest nerf to purgators was to their incinierator version. But hey if you like running 5 dudes with auto cannons and it works, that is great.

1) Why wouldn't I want to?
2) These & plenty of other options are just cool. Maybe I feel like a challenge, maybe I just like the look of the models/units, etc
3) Because not every game is a tourney game. Sure, no matter what I bring I'll try my best to win with it. But at the end of the evening? It really doesn't matter if I've won or lost as long as a fun game was had. And as long as I'm playing an army I like (virtually all of them), built in a way that pleases me, & not playing some ? I'm very likely to have a fun game.

Because not every sleeps on 20+ armies. A lot of people have one, maybe two and then having an army which is non functional (as in unable to use even the basic core rules of the army) is definition of not fun. Not everyone is like me who is willing to play 6 years of terminator army when the way to go was A "play different army" B "if you have to play your army play 100% power armour". Most people when they get to enjoy an army which doesn't work quit. And in case of Ad Mecha there was this bonus in form of the army being REALLY expensive. Even the bad robot builds.

And yes not every game is a tournament one. But then you have situations like one from the necron vs tyranid thread. Where his friend is not having much fun, in a cacual setting, with his opponent changing army/trying to lose etc And against all of this gets X times worse if the bad army is your only army, where you don't have the options of switching. Losing is okey only a certain number of times, before it becomes unfun.

Ah and you don't always get to play vs opponents which try to make it easy for you. Sometimes you will, again the nids vs necron thread example, get to play against people with regular lists which will make the whole gaming expiriance even worse. It is one thing to get ptera or TWC jailed in an even or tournament, it is another if it is one of your small circle of friends and you now know this will happen to your 1/4th or 1/5th of times you are playing.