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Herzlos wrote:
That just sounds like someone undoing a bad edit?

He get's warned by wikipedia admins for "undoing a bad edit"?

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That just sounds like someone undoing a bad edit?

He get's warned by wikipedia admins for "undoing a bad edit"?

Your source is an ex-Blizzard employee rumoured to be the guy who was stealing breast milk from the fridges?

He's also a lolicon and alleged pedophile.

The issue isn't whether or not Yasuke was a samurai, that's something of a nebulous term that's misunderstood by the west. Samurai is a class, it's not as if every samurai was some kind of sword saint.

The issue outside of AC: Shadows is Thomas Lockley allegedly fudging history and writing two different books about Yasuke that differ wildly. The Japanese one apparently lacks any controversy. The English one alleges that he performed seppuku on Oda Nobunaga and rescued his head. It also alleges that they may have been lovers. ASFAIK, there is zero basis for either in any other source material. It's on par with The History Channel's Ancient Aliens. In short, Lockley is accused of grossly inflating Yasuke's significance.

The issue with Yasuke in AC: Shadows is more complex.
On one hand, you have racists screaming about DEI and wokeness.
One the other hand, you have Asians and others ticked off over Asian Male Erasure. It's the first AC game to have a historical character be playable and I'm not sure, but I think it's also the first one where you can't play as a male native to the setting. Though, I think one game the lead is mixed Native-White?
They argue that being able to play as a Japanese woman is a moot point because Asian women are overrepresented (or represented well enough) in media, particularly games, but that's largely due to fetishization.

You can find all this various subreddits like AsianMasculinity, AznIdentity, the AC subreddit, etc. japanese-with-naoto.com goes into detail about the Thomas Lockley issues.

But again, I'm not providing links because I can't guarantee that there is zero offensive content if you dig into it. It's peruse at your own risk.

I think the first one where you aren't playing a native to the setting would be Black Flag.

You could also potentially put Valhalla in there as the majority of the game takes place in the British Isles, which Norwegians were not native to.

And yes, the asian male erasure argument could have merit. But fairly recently we had Ghost of Tsushima, before that Sekiro, Prey also depending on your choice of Morgan, the Yakuza series has been hitting major strides etc.

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
That just sounds like someone undoing a bad edit?

He get's warned by wikipedia admins for "undoing a bad edit"?

I believe there's a rule about the number of reversions you can do on a page in a short period of time, from what I was skimming yesterday.

If the editor in question was trying to "defend" the article during an edit war, it is entirely possible that he could end up reverting too frequently and get told off, even if he was doing the right thing.

trexmeyer wrote:
He's also a lolicon and alleged pedophile.

The issue isn't whether or not Yasuke was a samurai, that's something of a nebulous term that's misunderstood by the west. Samurai is a class, it's not as if every samurai was some kind of sword saint.

The issue outside of AC: Shadows is Thomas Lockley allegedly fudging history and writing two different books about Yasuke that differ wildly. The Japanese one apparently lacks any controversy. The English one alleges that he performed seppuku on Oda Nobunaga and rescued his head. It also alleges that they may have been lovers. ASFAIK, there is zero basis for either in any other source material. It's on par with The History Channel's Ancient Aliens. In short, Lockley is accused of grossly inflating Yasuke's significance.

The issue with Yasuke in AC: Shadows is more complex.
On one hand, you have racists screaming about DEI and wokeness.
One the other hand, you have Asians and others ticked off over Asian Male Erasure. It's the first AC game to have a historical character be playable and I'm not sure, but I think it's also the first one where you can't play as a male native to the setting. Though, I think one game the lead is mixed Native-White?
They argue that being able to play as a Japanese woman is a moot point because Asian women are overrepresented (or represented well enough) in media, particularly games, but that's largely due to fetishization.

You can find all this various subreddits like AsianMasculinity, AznIdentity, the AC subreddit, etc. japanese-with-naoto.com goes into detail about the Thomas Lockley issues.

But again, I'm not providing links because I can't guarantee that there is zero offensive content if you dig into it. It's peruse at your own risk.

I'm not getting political but DEI is a thing and calling everyone that disagrees with it racist is a rather inflammatory and massively offensive accusation in its own right, if you want videogame franchises to stick to their canon its not racist, nor does it make you racist for not enjoying constant activist inserts.
For the remainder lots of Ad-hominems, who cares who the guy was or what he's into, he made an observation.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

You could also potentially put Valhalla in there as the majority of the game takes place in the British Isles, which Norwegians were not native to.

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

You could also potentially put Valhalla in there as the majority of the game takes place in the British Isles, which Norwegians were not native to.

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations

Yes, norwegians moved to Britain during the viking period, which is when Valhalla is set. Was this meant to refute me in some way? Eivor was born in Norway and moved to Britain, they are not native to Britain.


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 Leopold Helveine wrote:

I'm not getting political but DEI is a thing and calling everyone that disagrees with it racist is a rather inflammatory and massively offensive accusation in its own right, if you want videogame franchises to stick to their canon its not racist, nor does it make you racist for not enjoying constant activist inserts.

What canon is being broken, exactly?

The one of oh i don't know, a game set in Feudal Japan should probably have a Japanese main character instead of an extremely forced black guy, whose historical inspiration(while real) is not exactly a solid choice for making an interesting main character.

He would have been better off as an NPC in the game, a nod to a historical oddity.

This kinda sums it up

Lets be fair this is Ubi - in Black Flag your character is a nobody.

A nobody who finds someone halfdead on an island; kills them; puts their clothes on

And suddenly knows enough to be able to infiltrate the super secrete assassin's order at the highest level. Not to mention gain all the skills required to assassinate; dance on walls AND know that they give out quests via pigeons.

Is the game out yet?

If not, do we know much about the plot?

If not, is it not possible they’ve plumped for Yasuke precisely because like the majority of potential players, he was an outsider to the culture of Japan at the time?

The game features a Japanese main character, there is two.
And they seem to be using them as two different approach to the gameplay.

It’s fairly ironic that a women is suddenly not Japanese enough, and this was followed up with ghost getting a similar treatment from the same crowd of people.

In the end, there is already a lot of Samurai in media, and I found it quite refreshing to see them going for a different approach.
As for alternative history, Fate exists, Japan loves it.
And a lot of people find Yasuke interesting as something that really was different in history. As often other weird historical things can be interesting simply for their rarity.



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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is the game out yet?

If not, do we know much about the plot?

If not, is it not possible they’ve plumped for Yasuke precisely because like the majority of potential players, he was an outsider to the culture of Japan at the time?

Game release date is 11 February 2025 now, so we don’t know much yet. Just the usual trailer and release stuff.

At this point I would not say the majority of potential players are outsiders to Japanese culture. Its gotta be the 2nd most exported culture other than American.

Modern Japanese culture, sure.

But historical Japanese culture?

We’ve already covered in the early posts in this thread that it’s far from monolithic, with different definitions for titles and stations, and expectations thereof, across different historical periods.

Also? How many of those who believe they’re familiar with Japanese Culture derive said knowledge solely from Anime? No, not Weebs. One can be a Japanophile through enjoying Anime and still not be a Weeb.

 Grey Templar wrote:
This kinda sums it up

Spoiler:

From what I've seen of the gameplay, Yasuke is by no means being used as a "stealthy" character - he's seemed to be far more of a blunt instrument.

Naoe seems to be far more likely to be the killer in the scenario in the comic.

I am curious how both characters are meant to tie into the "modern" aspect of the AC series, or if that even crops up at all.

 LordofHats wrote:
It's that loyalty and honor into death is very pomp and little circumstance. You won't find anything applicable in something like Tainei-ji, where ultimately the coupers won and winning trumped more romantic concerns. Even the guys who did kill themselves had practical concerns; being captured was humiliating and usually ended in torture in early samurai history. Killing yourself was a quicker and less ignoble way out.

Thats exactly what you find in the Tainei-ji incident - the coupers were trying to install the son of the incumbent but he and the son comitted harikiri which meant the coupers got into a lot of gak and ended up comitting harikiri themselves when it was realized how badly they fethed up.
I thought you were referring to the local forces they hired and the fact they all deserted basicly the next evening but they weren't samurai.

 LordofHats wrote:
Giri is romantic, but you'll have a very hard time finding example of it in real terms. When prompted, most samurai did not put loyalty and duty to a lord over personal interest. Those who did were rare enough that they tended to get whole legends stuck to their name, but that's because they were atypical.

Giri is an arrangement between lord and retainer - after hundreds of years of being the basis of a samurais employment it became romanticised but the hard reality of the concept is that its an agreement for service which could ultimately mean your death in return for restiution and respect.
Giri 'in real terms' is an employment contract, and every noble house need to utilise them right from their origins.
Legendary samurai were the ones who chose a house and stuck with only that house, which wasn't 'rare'. Every noble house had them. And having a written record of their exploits and deeds preserved was an essential part of the samurai being willing to follow their lord into death. Thats why having a long-standing house is so important in the culture formed around the bushi.
If you knew your deeds and exploits will survive a thousand years, you might feel like harikiri was easier to justify - thats why the emperor banning the practice was such a monumental decision.

 LordofHats wrote:
The story of the 47 Ronin spread so wide and far, because they went to a length that was no common. There's quite a few great revenge stories in Japanese history, but nowhere near as many as you'd think.

What they did was leave their duty unfulfilled.
And then came back for vengeance at a point where it was considered dishonourable.
Only the peasants saw it differently.

 LordofHats wrote:
Because yes. Like every civilization ever, members of warrior classes were largely defined and judged by their ability to win battles. Loyalty was applauded, but quick to be cast aside when convenient.

Quick? No. Im sorry, thats a ridiculous standpoint.
Your status as a retainer depended on your honour and only a fool employs a strong but disloyal retainer.

Have you actually got some titles for literature which was produced around the time of the Hagakure that cover a similar topic?
I want to aquire any i havent got already.

Wouldn't this be the first time in an AC game you played as a real historical person? AFAIK every game before you played a fictional character. You might run into real people from history, depending on the specific game, but the player was not a historical figure.

You briefly play as Leonidas in Odyssey.

trexmeyer wrote:
It's the first AC game to have a historical character be playable and I'm not sure, but I think it's also the first one where you can't play as a male native to the setting.

So representation suddenly matters after all?

Herzlos wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
It's the first AC game to have a historical character be playable and I'm not sure, but I think it's also the first one where you can't play as a male native to the setting.

So representation suddenly matters after all?

I have no idea what you're attempting to say.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Yes, norwegians moved to Britain during the viking period, which is when Valhalla is set. Was this meant to refute me in some way? Eivor was born in Norway and moved to Britain, they are not native to Britain.

Why so combative, it was a supplementation.

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 Leopold Helveine wrote:

I'm not getting political but DEI is a thing and calling everyone that disagrees with it racist is a rather inflammatory and massively offensive accusation in its own right, if you want videogame franchises to stick to their canon its not racist, nor does it make you racist for not enjoying constant activist inserts.

What canon is being broken, exactly?

I meant this in general, when any canon is being broken just to insert activism.

Let's take one of my favorite games (sorry for being such a weirdo here but) Yo-kai-watch. I swear if Yo-kai-watch 5 ends up like a push-minority-values-because-minorities-must-feel-represented-by-all-yokai I will not be amused. This has nothing to do with how I treat people who may or may not entertain certain lifestyles or ideas, for instance I am friends with people that are activists in the lgbt movement. It has to do with wanting your games to be an escape rather than some kind of reassurance, and when a canon has been that sort of fantasyworld unrelated to modern political events in the real world, changing that into that canon shifting into exactly those modern political events in the real world at the very least makes the game come of as being the target of sycophants.

Good comparisan; we do not discuss politics on this site because this site is about miniatures and somewhat related hobbies, I am a bit guilty of replying to some people that made political posts etc and won't anymore if I don't forget on what forum I am inbetween tab-hopping but that is exactly what a videogame is; it is a specific theme that gains following, fandom, sometimes even an entire lifestyle (see hatsune miku gaining more and more real life pressence now), why should any such be piggybacked by activism (other than because popularity invites aforementioned sycophants).. and not logically cause resistance?

It does always work only one way, minority this minority that..
Can you imagine a Tomb raider game where the main character is a man? (noone ever complained about playing as her though)

Why are you assuming activism in the first place though?

Why not assume that the writers thought up an interesting story they could tell with Yasuke as their protagonist which contrasts with the story of the native protagonist?

There are zero story details out yet, so you have absolutely no basis to assume activist.


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 Leopold Helveine wrote:


It does always work only one way, minority this minority that..

The loudest people I've encountered are the ones bitching about non-white, non-male characters being playable.

They're the ones actually going on about this stuff. Like, shouting and crying when being faced with an option to select pronouns in a character creator.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Why are you assuming activism in the first place though?

Why not assume that the writers thought up an interesting story they could tell with Yasuke as their protagonist which contrasts with the story of the native protagonist?

There are zero story details out yet, so you have absolutely no basis to assume activist.


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 Leopold Helveine wrote:


It does always work only one way, minority this minority that..

The loudest people I've encountered are the ones bitching about non-white, non-male characters being playable.

They're the ones actually going on about this stuff. Like, shouting and crying when being faced with an option to select pronouns in a character creator.

Well here's an example of DEI activism -let's modernize this FANTASY realm setting- extravaganza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svUn9t6B82A

Inb4 AC shadows has such convos (hypothetical, but not unrealistic) , would that be fine with you? In medieval japan?
Can you just -imagine- that people wouldn't -celebrate- such? And would that automatically make these people ' shouting, crying bigots' ?

I'm just trying to make you understand the issue here with DEI, but hey' suum cuique.

p.s. I legit have never in my 30ish years of having been active in gaming discussions both off and online heard anyone say that they couldn't handle "non-white" or "non-male" characters.

You know what kind of characters were popular back in the day?

Raziel (legacy of kain soul reaver), Liu kang (mortal kombat's posterboy), Lara croft (tomb raider), Lo wang (shadow warrior), TJ combo (killer instinct's posterboy), Eddy (Tekken's most beloved character), Koudelka (eponymous game), also one of the largest franchises is the Atelier series which always had a female protagonist.

Anyone ever cared about these characters not being white or male (where it applies)? HA.. come on..

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

Well here's an example of DEI activism -let's modernize this FANTASY realm setting- extravaganza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svUn9t6B82A

Inb4 AC shadows has such convos (hypothetical, but not unrealistic) , would that be fine with you? In medieval japan?
Can you just -imagine- that people wouldn't -celebrate- such? And would that automatically make these people ' shouting, crying bigots' ?

I don't see the problem, it is a game about fantasy, fiction.

Don't like don't play. It is as simple as that.

 Tyran wrote:

 Leopold Helveine wrote:

Well here's an example of DEI activism -let's modernize this FANTASY realm setting- extravaganza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svUn9t6B82A

Inb4 AC shadows has such convos (hypothetical, but not unrealistic) , would that be fine with you? In medieval japan?
Can you just -imagine- that people wouldn't -celebrate- such? And would that automatically make these people ' shouting, crying bigots' ?

I don't see the problem, it is a game about fantasy, fiction.

Don't like don't play. It is as simple as that.

You know people invest in franchises?

The Veilguard discussion needs to move to a different thread.

trexmeyer wrote:
The Veilguard discussion needs to move to a different thread.

No veilguard discussion here, its about DEI which is also the root of the Yasuke character insert into the japanese AC, while the original character was a tengu affiliated indigenous called Yamauchi Taka. https://assassinscreed.fandom.com/wiki/Yamauchi_Taka

 Leopold Helveine wrote:


You know people invest in franchises?

And we all have been disapointed by franchises we invest in, regardless of politics. FFS we are in a 40k forum, just ask whatever oldcron fans still remain.

You can either grow up and move on or be bitter and unhappy about it forever. Oldcrons aren't going to come back though.

Ah, so its about politics then? Something we do not allow here as we all know.

Lets get back on topic.

The largest contention seems to be how someone from that specific time period would identify another as 'samurai'.

Suggestions so far include - he was paid on a retainer rather than as a part-timer, he was armed(at least ceremonially), he fought at least once in battle(if perhaps only in defense of his life at the end), and was a companion of some fashion to Nobunaga.

On the flip side he had no birthright during an era where some sources suggest that 'samurai' held familiar connotations rather than earlier definitions of simply being a retainer or later post-Nobunaga changes that would see ashigaru recognized as Samurai.

And of course Nobunaga of all people gets to be the exception to his own rules should he have seen fit.

Seriously now, knock off the political by play and stick to the topic or have some time off.