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 Bobthehero wrote:

ccs wrote:

 CynosureEldar wrote:


F) Female space marines would be a thing on the spot, I dont care the in-universe reason, but I would be sure to have a nice and clear public announcement that anyone that has a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem.

G) if I have time, I would mandate a freeze on SM model range additions, and put all that effort into reworking the factions ~~

So how exactly do your F & G combine???

Seems like anyone who'd have a problem with F wouldn't really have anything to worry about....

Also, why bother with F if G kicks in? I thought the unbalance between SMs and SOBs as far as gendered factions went was that one is the flagship faction and the other isn't. If the SMs take a backseat and *really* become one faction amongst them, there's little reasons to want to remove the bit about them being male only.

do....do your models have to have boobs to be women or

Not what I wrote at all.

If the SM take a backseat and stop being the flagship faction, then it doesn't matter if they're all male and SOBs are all female.

In spirit I agree, I would prefer SM to no longer be the poster boys. The whole FSM is mostly a byproduct of the heavily SM centric lore and game.

But a more practical part me recognizes it is much easier to retcon in FSM than to push SM into a backseat,

I see a lot of good ideas, but there is an outlet available.

Russ and the End Times.

You could use this to clean house, remove the models, storyline that don't work, and blame the cosmic restart on anything from Tzeentchy tomfoolery to the nuttiness of Orkameides... anything is possible.

When it's over, just like Valhalla isn't truly the end, you can start a new age. Put Magnus on the throne, play with a lot of the "future lore" and enjoy the experience which is Warhammer.

The whole FSM is mostly a byproduct of the heavily SM centric lore and game.

No, it's a byproduct of being a game from the 80s that was supposed to be a parody of horrible people doing horrible things. I accept that GW can't sell that idea in this day in age, and therefore, the stupid gak like "no girls allowed" (which makes no sense and never has lore-wise) needs to go. Sidelining SM to give some TLC to everyone thats currently being neglected does not change this need whatsoever. And before we get into the loop about "Male SOB," no, I don't care if the SOB has dudes.

Gender never should have mattered in an all-out war grimdark setting, just as something as inane as eye or hair color does not. I promote my FSM point to letter C.

 Crimson wrote:
Primarchs are gone, and space marines are de-emphasised. They also return to be gritty penal legionaries that are feared and hated, instead of venerated shiny semi-divine knights. And this actually allows them to be heroic on occasion, without seeming too much like fascist propaganda, as they too are just one lowly cog in a terrible machine. And female space marines have always existed of course.

While I understand the sentiment behind it, I think as a goal 'de-emphasising' the space marines is going to be like nailing jelly to a tree. They're always going to be the most popular faction in the game, and the background should lean into that... The problem with the current background is that having the marines as a precious and limited resource doesn't jibe with the tabletop, where they're everywhere. So yes, return marines to their roots, but have them be the primary military arm of the Imperium. That explains why they are everywhere, and also lessens their hero status and that of the Imperium, by presenting an organisation that uses criminals as their representatives to the wider galaxy, and is structured in a way that produces a lot of them...

Guard become more of a planetary or system-wide set-up, basically replacing the current PDF, but capable of being co-opted by sector Warmasters and deployed around the galaxy when necessary to bolster other Imperial forces (also feeding into the Marine forces as this would be widely unpopular, leading to desertion and mutiny, leading to conscription into the Marines).





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CynosureEldar wrote:

The whole FSM is mostly a byproduct of the heavily SM centric lore and game.

No, it's a byproduct of being a game from the 80s that was supposed to be a parody of horrible people doing horrible things. I accept that GW can't sell that idea in this day in age, and therefore, the stupid gak like "no girls allowed" (which makes no sense and never has lore-wise) needs to go.

The lack of female space marines was never anything to do with the setting being about horrible people doing horrible things. It was sales driven, by GW taking people not wanting some truly awful models as a sign that the predominantly male customer base didn't want female models at all.

 insaniak wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Primarchs are gone, and space marines are de-emphasised. They also return to be gritty penal legionaries that are feared and hated, instead of venerated shiny semi-divine knights. And this actually allows them to be heroic on occasion, without seeming too much like fascist propaganda, as they too are just one lowly cog in a terrible machine. And female space marines have always existed of course.

While I understand the sentiment behind it, I think as a goal 'de-emphasising' the space marines is going to be like nailing jelly to a tree. They're always going to be the most popular faction in the game, and the background should lean into that... The problem with the current background is that having the marines as a precious and limited resource doesn't jibe with the tabletop, where they're everywhere. So yes, return marines to their roots, but have them be the primary military arm of the Imperium. That explains why they are everywhere, and also lessens their hero status and that of the Imperium, by presenting an organisation that uses criminals as their representatives to the wider galaxy, and is structured in a way that produces a lot of them...

Guard become more of a planetary or system-wide set-up, basically replacing the current PDF, but capable of being co-opted by sector Warmasters and deployed around the galaxy when necessary to bolster other Imperial forces (also feeding into the Marine forces as this would be widely unpopular, leading to desertion and mutiny, leading to conscription into the Marines).

I really like this idea. 30k fluff made them out to be the main thing as well. It's also inefficient to ferry around cannon fodder on space ships, using regular ships to mobilize a billion souls on a Hive World to war, makes total sense, relatively cheap compared to even getting a hundred thousand soldiers from another world.

 CynosureEldar wrote:

F) Female space marines would be a thing on the spot, I dont care the in-universe reason, but I would be sure to have a nice and clear public announcement that anyone that has a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem.

I got a problem with that statement and I'm unpleasantly surprised it did not get more backlash so far.

"Female Space Marines will be ruled out categorically. This will never change in the future and everybody who got a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem."

Do you get how silly this reads? Broadly speaking, I would oppose the introduction of FSM into the setting, but I got no problem with people who think otherwise or bring FSM models to a game.

Your statement is needlessly antagonistic and won't do anything to reconcile the two groups. You know, not everybody is against FSM because they want to keep girls out of the game or other misogynistic reasons.

 a_typical_hero wrote:

 CynosureEldar wrote:

F) Female space marines would be a thing on the spot, I dont care the in-universe reason, but I would be sure to have a nice and clear public announcement that anyone that has a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem.

I got a problem with that statement and I'm unpleasantly surprised it did not get more backlash so far.

"Female Space Marines will be ruled out categorically. This will never change in the future and everybody who got a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem."

Do you get how silly this reads? Broadly speaking, I would oppose the introduction of FSM into the setting, but I got no problem with people who think otherwise or bring FSM models to a game.

Your statement is needlessly antagonistic and won't do anything to reconcile the two groups. You know, not everybody is against FSM because they want to keep girls out of the game or other misogynistic reasons.

Trying to use a false equivalence is not going to support your argument.

Youre trying to say that a position of inclusion is just as bad as one of exclusion which is ridiculous and few people should take seriously. We live under rules that make it illegal to exclude people as part of our social contract, people are included every day that weren't 40 years ago.

You can make absolutely any argument you want to justify deliberate exclusion that doesn't invoke conscious and deliberate misogyny, but it's ultimate outcome is exclusion. Women were excluded from riding trains when they first appeared, not because men hated them and didn't want them to have access to trains, but because they believed through a culture of systemic unconscious sexism that women were inferior and trains would be dangerous to their delicate constitutions.

Plenty of exclusionary practice has been performed from a perception of benevolence, which is why your intentions don't matter, because it's not you that has to suffer the consequences of said exclusions. Doing it with a smile is irrelevant.

But nobody gets excluded from playing Warhammer right now?

If people would only play the game if they see themselves represented, then no man would play Sororitas and nobody would play Demons and Xenos.

I find it highly ironic that you accuse me of having a position of exclusion while defending a statement that literally calls for people to be excluded as inclusive at the same time.

 Hellebore wrote:

Trying to use a false equivalence is not going to support your argument.

Youre trying to say that a position of inclusion is just as bad as one of exclusion which is ridiculous and few people should take seriously.

What.

He was specifically arguing against exclusion.

 insaniak wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Primarchs are gone, and space marines are de-emphasised. They also return to be gritty penal legionaries that are feared and hated, instead of venerated shiny semi-divine knights. And this actually allows them to be heroic on occasion, without seeming too much like fascist propaganda, as they too are just one lowly cog in a terrible machine. And female space marines have always existed of course.

While I understand the sentiment behind it, I think as a goal 'de-emphasising' the space marines is going to be like nailing jelly to a tree. They're always going to be the most popular faction in the game, and the background should lean into that... The problem with the current background is that having the marines as a precious and limited resource doesn't jibe with the tabletop, where they're everywhere. So yes, return marines to their roots, but have them be the primary military arm of the Imperium. That explains why they are everywhere, and also lessens their hero status and that of the Imperium, by presenting an organisation that uses criminals as their representatives to the wider galaxy, and is structured in a way that produces a lot of them...

Guard become more of a planetary or system-wide set-up, basically replacing the current PDF, but capable of being co-opted by sector Warmasters and deployed around the galaxy when necessary to bolster other Imperial forces (also feeding into the Marine forces as this would be widely unpopular, leading to desertion and mutiny, leading to conscription into the Marines).

Good point actually. I wouldn't go as far as making them so common that they displace IG to PDF status, but they could cease to be this ultra rare super special thing they currently are.

And while we are it, lets increase the chapter sizes at least tenfold. Thousand marines is just laughable number. And no, do not increase the amount of ships they have, just increase their carrying capacities as the current ones make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Increase both Chapter sizes but also Chapter numbers.

I wouldn't be surprised if we put all Space Marine players that play a custom Chapter together in the world we would run out of spaces for custom Chapters.

 Hellebore wrote:

 a_typical_hero wrote:

 CynosureEldar wrote:

F) Female space marines would be a thing on the spot, I dont care the in-universe reason, but I would be sure to have a nice and clear public announcement that anyone that has a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem.

I got a problem with that statement and I'm unpleasantly surprised it did not get more backlash so far.

"Female Space Marines will be ruled out categorically. This will never change in the future and everybody who got a problem with that is no longer welcome anywhere in the GW ecosystem."

Do you get how silly this reads? Broadly speaking, I would oppose the introduction of FSM into the setting, but I got no problem with people who think otherwise or bring FSM models to a game.

Your statement is needlessly antagonistic and won't do anything to reconcile the two groups. You know, not everybody is against FSM because they want to keep girls out of the game or other misogynistic reasons.

Trying to use a false equivalence is not going to support your argument.

Youre trying to say that a position of inclusion is just as bad as one of exclusion which is ridiculous and few people should take seriously. We live under rules that make it illegal to exclude people as part of our social contract, people are included every day that weren't 40 years ago.

You can make absolutely any argument you want to justify deliberate exclusion that doesn't invoke conscious and deliberate misogyny, but it's ultimate outcome is exclusion. Women were excluded from riding trains when they first appeared, not because men hated them and didn't want them to have access to trains, but because they believed through a culture of systemic unconscious sexism that women were inferior and trains would be dangerous to their delicate constitutions.

Plenty of exclusionary practice has been performed from a perception of benevolence, which is why your intentions don't matter, because it's not you that has to suffer the consequences of said exclusions. Doing it with a smile is irrelevant.

You could extend the same thing to every other group. Why can't Space Marines accept crippled dwarfs? Because it makes no sense for a superhuman martial brotherhood in a fascist space empire to do so. You cannot have a cohesive setting without exclusion, that means excluding melee units from Tau, excluding women from the hyper-masculine Space Marines, excluding breathing units from the Necrons, excluding Psykers from World Eaters. If you include everything in every faction you don't have distinct factions which makes the setting and game far less interesting.

Trying to shove in representation everywhere isn't as good a stance as wanting different factions to be distinct, it's much worse, completely without merit. That's not to say that Femarines is an idea without merit (it being biologically impossible is silly), but saying that these kinds of ideas should always be implemented and never criticized is wrong. I'm okay with there being female Space Marines, like a couple of dozen across the galaxy, write a book series about one of them, let people make custom chapters that only have women, but Space Wolves should not canonically be 1/2 or even 1/9 women. Equating this belief with racism, misogyny or being a Tau player and wanting me to leave the hobby for it is also wrong and is not as good a stance as saying that we can all have different opinions on the merits of including Femarines.

Most women are far more delicate than most men. You can invoke whatever you want but there are biological differences between men and women and the fantasy of Space Marines builds on these differences to make something super manly. Even if you had Space Marines that were technically female the difference would be almost irrelevant because Space Marines are biologically and socially engineered to be as manly as possible. As much value as it brings socially to show girlpower with Femarines, as much benefit I say it has to uphold the lore the game has had for over a decade that Space Marines are men and it fits the aesthetic appeal of the manly faction to be purely male. Art matters too, you can't have Mona Lisa if every painting has to include every gender and ethnicity.

Excluding women from sitting on trains is not the same thing as representation. I welcome women to the hobby, even if they have bad taste and want Femarines or play Tau. Excluding exclusionary people is still exclusion, you just have to accept that sometimes exclusion is good, like when you're excluding Nazis or people that demand everything be rainbow coloured or people that call you names if you disagree with them.

For 1 day?

I'd organise a massive raid of concept art and republish the old art books and then have a bunch of new ones put into publication with loads of awesome art and concept art.

I'd also make it policy that art/concept art books must be put on regular production cycles not "one and done" .

I'd also ban ALL double page spread artwork across the entire company. (I mean I'd make that a freaking law for ANY firm publishing art - I loath opening up an artbook and there's an amazing bit of art with the entire focal point of the middle utterly ruined because its going into the middle of the page - unless you crack the spine and break the book)

 Overread wrote:
For 1 day?

I'd organise a massive raid of concept art and republish the old art books and then have a bunch of new ones put into publication with loads of awesome art and concept art.

I'd also make it policy that art/concept art books must be put on regular production cycles not "one and done" .

I'd also ban ALL double page spread artwork across the entire company. (I mean I'd make that a freaking law for ANY firm publishing art - I loath opening up an artbook and there's an amazing bit of art with the entire focal point of the middle utterly ruined because its going into the middle of the page - unless you crack the spine and break the book)

I think that's a great idea, but I'd release books in paperback so more people could afford them, not just the 100£ special hardbacks.

Blood Angels (one of the biggest Marine subfactions) takes cripples for their initiates.

And I'd like to point out that your exclusions are either something that's not inherent or even real (melee units and pyskers) or so broad as to encompass literally every human (breathing units). Except for women.

Out of curiosity, for those arguing for female Space Marines, are you also in favour of male Sisters of Battle and male Daughters of Khaine?

 vipoid wrote:
Out of curiosity, for those arguing for female Space Marines, are you also in favour of male Sisters of Battle and male Daughters of Khaine?

If those were flagship factions that would get about as much attention than the rest of the factions combined, then I definitely would.

 vipoid wrote:
Out of curiosity, for those arguing for female Space Marines, are you also in favour of male Sisters of Battle and male Daughters of Khaine?

I don't know enough about Daughters of Khaine or Sigmar in general to have input.
For Misters of Battle? I don't think it's needed, but if that's the requirement for female Marines, then sure.

There's a big difference between not excluding a historically and, to a sad extent presently, discriminated against half of the population in the flagship faction; and including men in a non-flagship faction.

Oh . . . This conversation again.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh . . . This conversation again.

I meant this to be a fun thread...

The road to frustrating internet discourse is paved with fun intentions.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh . . . This conversation again.

I meant this to be a fun thread...

Sometimes you have to beat the fun into people until they comply!

If that fails then there's no hope; they might make a useful servitor or something

 JNAProductions wrote:

There's a big difference between not excluding a historically and, to a sad extent presently, discriminated against half of the population in the flagship faction; and including men in a non-flagship faction.

I find this a baffling argument. And I say this as someone with no horse in this race.

You clearly don't care about factions in 40k or AoS being female-only, yet somehow a faction being male-only is an absolute travesty.

I've seen people say that this is a holdover from the 80s, but if anything I would have thought it would be a holdover from the entirety of human history, where (barring some very rare exceptions) armies were exclusively male.

The fact that Space Marines are hyper-masculine (or at least a 12-year-old's idea of hyper-masculine) to a cartoonish degree would also seem to lend itself to them being all-male, irrespective of any lore regarding the creation process.

Moreover, you seem to be equating having a male-only faction in a completely fictional, sci-fi army to real-world discrimination, which is absolute nonsense.

Not only that, but "not sending women into an eternal meat-grinder to witness and commit untold atrocities, with the only end being an agonising death at the hands of any one of the nightmarish creatures they fight" is somehow equated to discriminating against women.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

There's a big difference between not excluding a historically and, to a sad extent presently, discriminated against half of the population in the flagship faction; and including men in a non-flagship faction.

I find this a baffling argument. And I say this as someone with no horse in this race.

You clearly don't care about factions in 40k or AoS being female-only, yet somehow a faction being male-only is an absolute travesty.

I've seen people say that this is a holdover from the 80s, but if anything I would have thought it would be a holdover from the entirety of human history, where (barring some very rare exceptions) armies were exclusively male.

The fact that Space Marines are hyper-masculine (or at least a 12-year-old's idea of hyper-masculine) to a cartoonish degree would also seem to lend itself to them being all-male, irrespective of any lore regarding the creation process.

Moreover, you seem to be equating having a male-only faction in a completely fictional, sci-fi army to real-world discrimination, which is absolute nonsense.

Not only that, but "not sending women into an eternal meat-grinder to witness and commit untold atrocities, with the only end being an agonising death at the hands of any one of the nightmarish creatures they fight" is somehow equated to discriminating against women.

The single biggest 40k faction excluding half the population, in a way that impacts the real world by people using it as an excuse to be actually exclusive and discriminatory towards women is different from a much smaller faction being women-only.

Including female Marines wouldn't make the Imperium a better place-if anything, it shows they literally do not care. Doesn't matter who you are, you're getting surgeries, genemodding, and then being sent to war.
But it could very well make the actual hobby a better place.

 JNAProductions wrote:
The single biggest 40k faction excluding half the population, in a way that impacts the real world by people using it as an excuse to be actually exclusive and discriminatory towards women is different from a much smaller faction being women-only.

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about with this.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh . . . This conversation again.

I meant this to be a fun thread...

Yeah I was hoping it wouldn't turn into this after the first few mentions.

. . .

I like Tyranid Warriors! I like that they're (or at least used to be beforethe various scale inflations) on a different scale than the baseline unit of all other races.

A fun thread is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
The single biggest 40k faction excluding half the population, in a way that impacts the real world by people using it as an excuse to be actually exclusive and discriminatory towards women is different from a much smaller faction being women-only.

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about with this.

i'm a woman who always feels at least somewhat alienated in the hobby because of the FSM issue. am i not in the real world?