Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I'm watching a tactics video for the future 'Nid army I have about half the models for, about 6 months old. The narrator pops out with "...and if you put the Neurotyrant in a squad of Zoanthropes, they can all take advantage of the Big Guns Never Tire rule, because of the Monster Keyword."

That...simply can't be right, my head-cold addled brain thought. That's not how that actually works, is it? Dutifully, I open up the Core Rules. No help (giant surprise there ), so off to the FAQ files and Rules Commentary. In the KEYWORD section of the commentary is states very plainly:

--If a rule specifies that it applies to a model/unit with a KEYWORD, it only applies to a model/unit with that keyword on its datasheet.
--If a rule specifies that it applies to ‘non-KEYWORD’ models/units, it only applies to models/units that do not have that keyword. For example, if a rule applies to non-VEHICLE units, it only applies to units that do not have the VEHICLE keyword.
--Some units can contain models that have different keywords. While this is the case, such a unit is considered to have all of the keywords of all of its models, and so is affected by any rule that applies to units with any of those keywords. Remember that attacks are made against units, not models.

Then, after a somewhat pointless example, it immediately states:

--If a rule only applies to models with a specific keyword, then it instead only applies to models in such a unit that have the correct keyword.

How are these not directly contradictory? Like I said, I'm a bit doped up on cold meds, but it appears to say:

1) If a rule applies to a unit OR model with a KEYWORD, it only applies to the unit OR model with that KEYWORD actually physically printed on its datasheet.
2) blah blah blah the opposite of the first one, essentially.
3) Now I can tack on a Leader (Neurotyrant) to a Zoanthrope unit, and the unit (note it doesn't say models, just unit here) is considered to have all of the KEYWORDS of all of its models. So now the Neurotyrant becomes Infantry, and the Zoanthropes become Monsters. Similarly, if I put the Tyrant into some Tyrant Guard, they suddenly all get to Fly, and become Synapse for the purposes of measuring the 6".

And then...and then...it follows that up with:

4) If a rule only applies to a model with a specific KEYWORD (such as only Monsters and Vehicles being able to use the Big Guns Never Tire rule, or only the Tyrant actually having the Synapse KEYWORD on their sheet, not the Guard), then it only applies to models in such unit that have the correct KEYWORD.

WTF?

So by all of that nonsense, the way I'm reading it is, a unit gets all of the KEYWORDS of each model, which is usually a hefty negative. I.e. said Tyrant and Guard are now subject to Anti-Psyker/Infantry/Monster weapons as a unit.
When it comes to a beneficial special ability, KEYWORDS like Synapse letting you measure range from non-Synapse KEYWORD bearing models in the unit, or the aforementioned Zoanthropes using BGNT, it's a big nope.

Do I have that cogitated out correctly in my addled brain? What did I miss? Why can't the rules be clear?

It sounds like you've come partway to the right conclusion, although it has nothing to do with a rule being beneficial or not. It works because there's a distinction between a unit having a keyword, and a model in a unit having a keyword.
A unit has the combined keywords of all models within it.
However some models within that unit may not have all of those keywords.

So a combined zoanthrope/neurotyrant unit is considered to be both a Monster and an Infantry unit.
However for the purposes of a rule that refers to a specific model within the unit, a zoanthrope model still not considered a Monster, and the neurotyrant model is not considered Infantry.


You have to look at each rule to see whether it applies to a unit, or to a model.

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
Monster and Vehicle units are eligible to shoot in their controlling player’s Shooting phase even while they are within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ...

Big Guns Never Tire states that it applies to Monster/Vehicle Units. So you check the keywords of the unit to see whether it applies. Having a neurotyrant attached to those zoanthropes means the unit has the Monster keyword, so it does indeed mean they can shoot (and be shot at) while in combat.

The Anti-X ability you mentioned is another such rule. A squad of tyranid warriors with an attached winged tyranid prime becomes vulnerable to Anti-Fly weapons, despite only one model in the unit having that keyword.

As for rules which refer to a specific model rather than a unit, Synapse is indeed an example of that.

SYNAPSE
If your Army Faction is TYRANIDS, while a TYRANIDS unit from your army is within 6" of one or more friendly SYNAPSE models, that TYRANIDS unit is said to be within Synapse Range of that model and of your army. ...

So if you have a hive tyrant attached to a squad of tyrant guard, then you measure synapse range only from the hive tyrant. Not from the guard. You measure to a unit however, so only one model from a unit of termagants needs to be in range for the whole termagant unit to be within synapse range of the tyrant.

Another example of some rules that refer to individual models instead of their unit are the rules for movement, such as flying or moving through ruins. Zoanthrope models are infantry, so are able to move through ruin walls. However the attached neurotyrant is not infantry so is unable to move through a ruin wall even though the other members of its unit can do so.

Arson Fire wrote:
It sounds like you've come partway to the right conclusion, although it has nothing to do with a rule being beneficial or not. It works because there's a distinction between a unit having a keyword, and a model in a unit having a keyword.
A unit has the combined keywords of all models within it.
However some models within that unit may not have all of those keywords.

So a combined zoanthrope/neurotyrant unit is considered to be both a Monster and an Infantry unit.
However for the purposes of a rule that refers to a specific model within the unit, a zoanthrope model still not considered a Monster, and the neurotyrant model is not considered Infantry.


You have to look at each rule to see whether it applies to a unit, or to a model.

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
Monster and Vehicle units are eligible to shoot in their controlling player’s Shooting phase even while they are within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ...

Big Guns Never Tire states that it applies to Monster/Vehicle Units. So you check the keywords of the unit to see whether it applies. Having a neurotyrant attached to those zoanthropes means the unit has the Monster keyword, so it does indeed mean they can shoot (and be shot at) while in combat.

The Anti-X ability you mentioned is another such rule. A squad of tyranid warriors with an attached winged tyranid prime becomes vulnerable to Anti-Fly weapons, despite only one model in the unit having that keyword.

As for rules which refer to a specific model rather than a unit, Synapse is indeed an example of that.

SYNAPSE
If your Army Faction is TYRANIDS, while a TYRANIDS unit from your army is within 6" of one or more friendly SYNAPSE models, that TYRANIDS unit is said to be within Synapse Range of that model and of your army. ...

So if you have a hive tyrant attached to a squad of tyrant guard, then you measure synapse range only from the hive tyrant. Not from the guard. You measure to a unit however, so only one model from a unit of termagants needs to be in range for the whole termagant unit to be within synapse range of the tyrant.

Another example of some rules that refer to individual models instead of their unit are the rules for movement, such as flying or moving through ruins. Zoanthrope models are infantry, so are able to move through ruin walls. However the attached neurotyrant is not infantry so is unable to move through a ruin wall even though the other members of its unit can do so.

Wow. THANK YOU for that detailed analysis/description. When you spell it out like that, it makes perfect sense, and it was obviously my lack of reading comprehension (or the cold meds...yeah, we'll blame those) for not quite getting to the correct conclusion. The light bulb went on, and I'm starting to understand better how GW has laid out the rules in 10th edition.

Seriously. I love this place for just such responses as that.

Arson Fire wrote:
It sounds like you've come partway to the right conclusion, although it has nothing to do with a rule being beneficial or not. It works because there's a distinction between a unit having a keyword, and a model in a unit having a keyword.
A unit has the combined keywords of all models within it.
However some models within that unit may not have all of those keywords.

So a combined zoanthrope/neurotyrant unit is considered to be both a Monster and an Infantry unit.
However for the purposes of a rule that refers to a specific model within the unit, a zoanthrope model still not considered a Monster, and the neurotyrant model is not considered Infantry.


You have to look at each rule to see whether it applies to a unit, or to a model.

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
Monster and Vehicle units are eligible to shoot in their controlling player’s Shooting phase even while they are within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units. ...

Big Guns Never Tire states that it applies to Monster/Vehicle Units. So you check the keywords of the unit to see whether it applies. Having a neurotyrant attached to those zoanthropes means the unit has the Monster keyword, so it does indeed mean they can shoot (and be shot at) while in combat.

The Anti-X ability you mentioned is another such rule. A squad of tyranid warriors with an attached winged tyranid prime becomes vulnerable to Anti-Fly weapons, despite only one model in the unit having that keyword.

As for rules which refer to a specific model rather than a unit, Synapse is indeed an example of that.

SYNAPSE
If your Army Faction is TYRANIDS, while a TYRANIDS unit from your army is within 6" of one or more friendly SYNAPSE models, that TYRANIDS unit is said to be within Synapse Range of that model and of your army. ...

So if you have a hive tyrant attached to a squad of tyrant guard, then you measure synapse range only from the hive tyrant. Not from the guard. You measure to a unit however, so only one model from a unit of termagants needs to be in range for the whole termagant unit to be within synapse range of the tyrant.

Another example of some rules that refer to individual models instead of their unit are the rules for movement, such as flying or moving through ruins. Zoanthrope models are infantry, so are able to move through ruin walls. However the attached neurotyrant is not infantry so is unable to move through a ruin wall even though the other members of its unit can do so.

That is such a good explanation of it thank you, was going to try and answer myself but could never have got it that clear. Bravo!