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It's the army. It has so many buffs and debuffs that everything in it becomes OP once they're applied.

I have yet to see a game where my friend's Deathguard don't win by turn 4 with most of the army intact, and the list is just random stuff thrown together.

I'm running Blightlords with Lord Of Virulence, Plague Marines with supporting characters, and two Princes (one of each type).

They're absolutely stomping.

Wayniac wrote:
Is it the army though, or just competitive wonks spamming OP units until it's nerfed and then moving to the next meta options? Given that basicallyh all the competitive players magically had 3 HBL Drones now that they're good, and you see them in every list... I question if it's just the typical "GW can't balance gak and competitive gaks gravitate towards what's broken"

I'm not an expert - but it feels like everything.

I mean HBL Drones are ludicrous - but as various competitive people have said, if you push them up to a sensible value (125~ points?) competitive DG players probably just pivot into Predators (never thought I'd say this in the 2020s) that are still good at 130 (?).
I think we are in the 10.5~ era, which is to say GW has inexplicably stopped caring about combos.
It makes the codex fun - you can run basically anything and it feels good. But it also means almost everything is a bit too cheap - and the real bargains are comically so.

I mean if we are doing anecdotes - the guy I probably play against the most has Sisters and DG. And over the last few weeks I can say they very much not the same.

Wayniac wrote:
Is it the army though, or just competitive wonks spamming OP units until it's nerfed and then moving to the next meta options? Given that basicallyh all the competitive players magically had 3 HBL Drones now that they're good, and you see them in every list... I question if it's just the typical "GW can't balance gak and competitive gaks gravitate towards what's broken"

Tripple drone isn't just because it's too cheap. It's because it fills a gap in DG shooting that no other unit can fill
That said, 100 points for it is a joke. There is no reason why it shouldn't cost the same as a predator.
It's also worth noting that many people already had the tripple mower drones from previous metas, you can just weapon-swap those models to HBL if you didn't glue on the fleshmower.

Besides that, the army is absolutely part of the problem. Previously, DG were an army with next to no synergy, and now everything synergizes with everything. I guess GW underestimated the effect - but so did many other people. Outside of obvious powerful things like the HBL drone, rapid ingress death shroud and biologus, many previewers got their prediction of meta lists and detachment tiers dead wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I fully agree with the DG posters above me. The army is great fun to play, but definitely way too strong.

My list is pretty much a mess:


Originally, this list was just meant to test what the new codex can do, bringing one of everything. However, every other game is a complete stomp, and I win more of the close games than I lose. That's why I stick with it despite not being competitive at all. People who do not have a deep understanding of 10th edition tactics basically do not have a fighting chance.

Given I play DG and also don't have a deep understanding of 10th edition tactics, I should be fine playing then lmao


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And yeah lol played an all jetbike eldar list (1500 points) and got slaughtered. Completely pushed out of everything. I did learn that the army still needs boots on the ground to get objectives. 3x10 poxwalkers infiltrating is cool but does nothing if they get wiped out first turn before you can score. But to be fair I had played since like last October.

Wayniac wrote:
Given I play DG and also don't have a deep understanding of 10th edition tactics, I should be fine playing then lmao


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah lol played an all jetbike eldar list (1500 points) and got slaughtered. Completely pushed out of everything. I did learn that the army still needs boots on the ground to get objectives. 3x10 poxwalkers infiltrating is cool but does nothing if they get wiped out first turn before you can score. But to be fair I had played since like last October.

You need high skill to outmaneuver them, not to operate them. If you spent turn 1 wiping that many poxwalkers, you pretty much played right into their hands. Their job is to restrict movement and keep you busy ("jail") until the other units arrive where they are supposed to be.

Sorry, I was the DG player and he steamrolled ME like it was nothing. With massed shuriken cannon fire he basically wiped 80% of my stuff by top of 2 and kept me out of the middle the entire game. I lost by like over 50 VP. The three squads of poxes were trivially easy to wipe out with almost zero effort from him via shooting. My vehicles were easily shot by bright lances,etc.

Which is why I realized I need actual bodies not gimmicks.

Odd. Bright lances aren't that good at killing our vehicles unless the have hot dice. In general, I've felt like eldar do have a better fighting chance than most armies, but not that good.

What exactly did you run?

 Jidmah wrote:
Odd. Bright lances aren't that good at killing our vehicles unless the have hot dice. In general, I've felt like eldar do have a better fighting chance than most armies, but not that good.

What exactly did you run?

Detachment: Virulent Vectorium

Lord of Virulence w/Daemon Weapon of Nurgle
Lord of Contagion w/Furnace of Plagues
6x Deathshroud (w/ LoC)
3x Deathshroud
10x Plague Marines (3x Plasma, 2x Blight Launchers, 1x Spewer)
2x Myphitic Blight-Hauler
1x Plagueburst crawler
3x10 Poxwalker

He had... something like:

Eldrad (just for the extra CP per round he said)
10 Storm guardians (just bodyguard for Eldrad, stood on his backfield the whole game and did nothing)
5x3 Jetbikes with Shuriken cannon
1x6 Jetbikes with shuriken cannon
2x Warwalkers with bright lances
1x wraithlord with bright lance
3x Vyper with bright lance
1x3 Shining Spears
1x3 Shroudrunners

He got first turn, so wiped out all three of my poxwalker squads I had put onto the three no man's land objectives and took them. He had some rule where he could like put his guys back into reserve at the start of the movement phase and then drop them down again at the end so he was able to outflank me the entire game. two bright lance vypers shot my plagueburst crawler down easily in one round of shooting since they popped down on a flank where I had nothing (I kept both my deathshroud in reserve)

Mainly, it was being outmaneuvered from turn one, and mass shuriken cannon fire (plus him using two strategems frequently that gave him full rerolls and +1 AP) just wiped out pretty much all my infantry. I did, admittedly, forget like 90% of my stratagems (this was my first game in like 9 months). But it definitely feels like I went too heavy on toys and had like zero ground presence (since poxwalkers die to a stiff breeze). By the start of MY first turn (he got to go first) I had only the blight haulers, PBC and like 5 or so plague marines who were left alive which let him dominate the board until bottom of two when I could bring down by Deathshroud, and by then it was already too late.

Well, no surprise here, you put more than half your army into reserves (which is not allowed, by the way) and then got zoned out of everything by a fast army. 250 is the maximum amount of points you are allowed to reserve at 1000 points.

Outside of that there isn't really a reason to run 10 man squads of plague marines unless you plan to attach characters. Six deathshroud with a enhanced LoC also is a lot of overkill. Three is bodyguard models is plenty to eliminate pretty much anything your opponent could throw at you and walk through two more units.

Getting killed that quickly also most likely meant that you weren't hiding your army well enough during first turn - even pox walkers should either be as close to the opponent as possible to block movement or hidden from sight. If it wasn't possible to hide those units, it directly goes to not enough terrain

Two vipers popping a PBC also isn't normal, Yes, PBC aren't great and cost way to much, but hitting both, wounding both and you not rolling a single save and then both rolling high enough to deal 12 damage is quite lucky.

Last, one of the reasons to puck the virulent vectorium are its useful stratagems, plus you really need to rapid ingress that LoC/deathshroud unit. Disgustingly resilient is very efficient against shuriken cannons.

In summary, next time:
1. Don't break the rules to kneecap yourself
2. Split your big squads into smaller squads
3. Hide turn 1. It's easier to fight bikes off an objective that to protect it agains them.
4. Use stratagems. If your opponent is pumping an extra CP into them and you are not using them at all, you are bringing a plague knive to a bright lance fight.

We were playing 1500, not 1000, so I should have been fine there. But yeah, definitely did NOT use terrain to my advantage (our group always has an issue with how terrain works, it's always so confusing to us, some of us are getting terrain footprint markers to help), should have put the Poxwalkers in cover not on the objective (he would have still been able to get there first, as he got first turn, but I might have been able to get control of them after)

Assuming you ran the LoV solo, you still end up at 550, which is illegal even at 2000.

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming you ran the LoV solo, you still end up at 550, which is illegal even at 2000.

Isn't it up to 50%? Or did they change that. Like I said it's been like.. probably 10 months or more since I last played 40k so I'm having trouble remembering stuff. LoV was not in reserve, just the LoC+6 and then the unit of 3.

Did I misremember that? I could have sworn we (local group, that is) always played that it was a percentage of your points, not a flat limit (I would have sworn under oath that's how much I thought this was the case). Was that always a thing in 10th? Did we just all forget it and play with 9th rules still, or something (we play infrequently and none of us are competitive so we're not like often going over each other's lists with a fine tooth comb to make sure it's legit. we probably should. I know now that I really need to just re-read everythng from scratch.)

I thought it was 25% but Deep Strike is exempt.

Wayniac wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Assuming you ran the LoV solo, you still end up at 550, which is illegal even at 2000.

Isn't it up to 50%? Or did they change that. Like I said it's been like.. probably 10 months or more since I last played 40k so I'm having trouble remembering stuff. LoV was not in reserve, just the LoC+6 and then the unit of 3.

Did I misremember that? I could have sworn we (local group, that is) always played that it was a percentage of your points, not a flat limit (I would have sworn under oath that's how much I thought this was the case). Was that always a thing in 10th? Did we just all forget it and play with 9th rules still, or something (we play infrequently and none of us are competitive so we're not like often going over each other's lists with a fine tooth comb to make sure it's legit. we probably should. I know now that I really need to just re-read everythng from scratch.)

Orkeosaurus wrote:I thought it was 25% but Deep Strike is exempt.

The 25% applies to units placed into Strategic Reserves and for units placed into Reserves it is dependent on the mission pack you are using.
If Leviathan:

Which of their units will start the battle in Reserves (including Strategic Reserves). No more than half the number of units in a player’s army can start the battle in Reserves, and the combined points total of those units cannot be more than half the total of their army. Units embarked within a TRANSPORT that are set up in Reserves also count as being set up in Reserves for these limits.

If Pariah:

No more than half of the units in your army can start the battle in Reserves, and the points total of those units cannot be more than half of the points total of your army (units embarked within a TRANSPORT that is set up in Reserves also count towards these limits).

So if all your terms were in reserves at 550 points it should be fine at a 1500 points game.

Thanks for clearing that up. I've been playing orks almost all edition, didn't have too much contact with deep strike there