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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hold up, just thinking,

We know a given Marine will have two Progenoid implanted, and that at least one is harvested as soon as it matures.

And we know the matured Progenoid is used to culture a new batch of the various implant organs that make a Marine a Marine.

But, I’m not sure it’s documented that each Progenoid can only culture one of each implant? I don’t want to waffle on further here, as I may simply be misremembering or ignorant of a given source there.

The old Index Astartes Rites of Initiation article was fairly clear in that regard.

First in the section on progenoids: ‘When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote transplanted in the recipient Marine.’
Then in the section on Founding new Chapters: ‘From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted in two more slaves, from which come four more progenoids and so on.’

Apparently 55 years to get to 1,000.

Ah cool! At least that one is settled

Phase 18 - Progenoids. There are two of these glands, one situated in the neck, the other deep within the chest cavity. These glands are important to the survival of the Marine's Chapter. Each organ grows within the Marine, absorbing hormonal stimuli and genetic material from the other implants. After five years, the neck gland is mature and ready for removal. After ten years, the chest gland becomes mature and is also ready for removal. A gland may be removed any time after it has matured. These glands represent a Chapter's only source of gene-seed. When mature, each gland contains a single gene-seed corresponding to each zygote implanted into the recipient Marine. Once removed by surgery, the progenoid must be carefully prepared, its individual gene-seeds checked for mutation, and sound gene-seeds stored. Gene-seeds can be stored indefinitely under suitable conditions.

Gene-seed can only be obtained by removing one or both progenoid organs from a living (or very recently deceased) Marine.[---] The whole purpose of the progenoid organ is to provide gene-seed to enable the Chapter to continue. It is not possible to create a zygote in any other way. Each Chapter's stock of gene-seed is therefore unique to itself.

[i]As each Marine has only two progenoid glands, the rate at which a Chapter can create new Marines is restricted.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think that Geneseed can be cloned - but please don’t quote me on that!

If the seed can’t be cloned directly I have no doubts that Bile could clone a creature to make gene seed for harvesting. Or just straight up clone marines. That’s been done aswell as cloning primarchs. The kill them and pull the glands out

However in the bile trilogy he trades with Trazyn to get a huge shipment of HH era geneseed that’s been held in stasis and I sort of thought one of primary reason for this from a setting perspective was to explain how the black legion could maintain its ranks aswell as other war bands.

And to explain how bile can not be part of the EC but stay safe - it’s because there is a lack of apothecary skill amongst the legions and bile does the best work and can train others if suitably rewarded.

Bile being Bile, I don’t think he’d just stop at one successful, proven process.

I’ve not read his books, but he strikes me as the sort of want fresh samples to try even more new things. And a stock of perfectly preserved Crusade/Heresy era is going to be about as uncorrupted and mutated as one might hope.

From a scientific research point of view, you’d want matching stock to better judge your progress and have control samples and that. So if something does go wrong, you’ve a better chance of understanding exactly what that was, and where correction might lie.

Importantly, it was pre-Blight EC geneseed as well so not just uncorrupted but almost as pure as it could be.

Whilst we are on this topic.

Inductii.

1. Are they still a thing in some post-heresy Chapters

2. Theoratically, is there anything stopping rando Chapter *insert number here* from deciding, 'yeah, you know what, instead of rebuilding ourselves the long way, how about we mass produce and settle for 'acceptable' bodies for the grinder.

A lot of current Chapters are basically Inductii anyway.

The Imperial Fists ended up losing the ability to implant certain organs in their Astartes because so many Inductii were made without them that it irreparably damaged their geneseed.

It's maybe not flash induction in the same sense but hypnoindoctrination is still the go to for Chapters getting their inductees to be loyal and mesh with the Chapter creed or ethos.

And to help them manage their altered biology. Something easily overlooked, but a vital step.

You can just bung in wriggly greenish-pink things 1-13 and expect the body to know what to do with them, beyond reject them almost certainly killing the person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeah, I’d agree that given millennia of degradation of Geneseed stocks and understanding of the overall process? I’d agree pre-Primaris, Firstborn likely were at a mid-point between Peak Maureen and Inductii.

The major upside of the Primaris Project is less the spangly upgrades, and more the objective return of understanding to the process. And provided nothing too awful happens to Cawl and his copies? That knowledge and understanding can be issued and reissued time and time again.

Of course, whether Chapter Traditions will allow them to take heed of said Improved And Presumably Pretty Accurate Knowledge is where the fun of the background lies.