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So, was doing a little Mathhammer on the Tzaangor Enlightened with bows for the army I'm building and realized that if you can manage to get the full re-roll buff on a big unit (10+ on 3 dice with multiple attempts possible, so not too hard), they can put out serious damage. With 30" Range, great movement and a reactionary move, it's not going to be too hard to keep these guys alive in your games and at only 80pts per 6 (assuming you can afford the $ to get 18 models) this is what their damage looks like against a big Knight. 

54 Shots hitting on 4's with Lethal Hits will get you an average of 9 Lethals, but since you're only wounding on 6's anyway, you re-roll all the non-lethals fishing for more. That gives you 7.5 more Lethal hits, then rolling 6's to wound on the remaining 15 hits (from the 4's and 5's), that gives you 2.5 more for a total of 19 wounds at AP -2 D:2 Ignores Cover. That will put even the toughest vehicles on a 4+ save, dealing off 18-20 damage on average. Even the biggest Knights only have around 24 wounds, so it shouldn't be that hard to finish the job with a Doombolt, some grenades, a little fire from elsewhere, ect. And if your target doesn't have a 4+ invul, you can put the AP spell into them as well for even more damage. Or if they're on a 3+ save naturally, it's way more damage as well.

That's 240 points of Tzaangor Enlightened with 1 spell buff taking out most or all of a 400+ point titanic unit in a single attack.

Edit: So just realized I messed up the math, it's the melee ones that have three attacks, not the ranged ones which only have 2, so it's be more like 12-14 damage to a big unit, which is less impressive, but still not bad. Especially considering that these are also solid against MEQ units and and cheap enough to run around doing actions and screening things if needed too. I still think they're really strong, just a little less strong than I thought. 

Agree they only have 2 shots each - but hard to fault the impact. Admittedly you'd only get that on one unit per turn but still.

Perhaps this is just cynical, but I can't work out why both Enlightened are priced at 50/80. Feels like a few games where 240 points of greatbows blows up a few "big" units will prompt something of an urgent rethink.

Fundamentally its bizarre the first 3 cost 16.66 points a model, and the next 3, who have exactly the same stats, cost merely 10. This is the sort of thing you'd expect if the second three are relegated to glorified lasgun wielding wound-tokens.

I'd argue - even with the reactive move - its not that hard to jump out and kill these guys. But I'm not sure that's completely true. T4 5++ 2 Wounds isn't that bad a defensive profile as AP1 is plentiful enough - and very good for those points covered above.

On a wider topic - perhaps one for the "what to expect in 11th", but I wonder sometimes whether GW will eventually get rid of "fishing". Doesn't really feel like its an international buff to "reroll" abilities. Or I guess at this point maybe it is - but the lethality of 9th has always been lurking in the wings.

I'm not too sure, but it's certainly possible they could get a hike. It depends how noticeable it is. I think they're going to be a great jack of all trades unit, but it will be a lot of cumulative value over the course of the game rather than anything super flashy, so I think they'll only get a nerf if everyone catches on and starts running 18 per list. (Though GW may let that simmer for a bit until everyone has purchased 18.)

The 3 man unit used to cost less, not sure if it was ever 40, but it was 45 for a while, and people were just using it to hide and do actions for super cheap. They increased a lot of small units like that, the Krootox are the same, its' 40 points per 1, but only 60 for 2 and 90 for 3.

Exactly, how many times is a 5 man squad of marines in the backline just too out of reach to deal with when more pressing units are right in your face.

Yeah, it's hard to say if that's an intentional part of the system or not as its use is pretty niche, but is a heck of a force multiplier when used. It's the same with Farstalker Lethals and Lone Spear Re-rolls, I've downed Primchs and Knights in one turn with them (though they have the benefit of shooting and charging with their Lethal Re-rolls, though it's only against one target per game.)

I think GW have an issue with any unit being much below 50 points, as it becomes too good at doing actions. But 6 of these guys for 80 points seems like a steal.

My perhaps warped view at the moment is all the Chaos books are probably going to need to be looked at. Between them and Eldar its feeling very much like 10.5 Edition has arrived. In some respects thats good - I think the books are well written. But I feel GW has started once again being too free with handing out rerolls, lethal hits and AP bonuses with little regard for the consequences.

I guess I should judge Space Wolves, but my mind just glazes over.

That's the hard part about having this massive game based on a D6 system, there are only so many stat lines you can give things for variation that they stretch to find other ways of making something stronger or weaker. Re-rolls do give some extra flexibility here, but they are becoming very prevalent.

For example I main Kroot and with my 3 Lone Spears I'm re-rolling nearly all of my hit rolls all game long. When you have a blanket option like that, what else are people going to do but jam their list full of that choice or things that can take advantage of it?

First, yes 80 points for 6 is too cheap. However, I don't think they are going to be the huge problem where you see three units of them in every list. First, they are only BS4 (well 3 if you invest 55 points in a character) and while you can get the re-rolls to help that out, it is more limited as it will only be on one unit, and sometimes you might not have a psyker in range of the unit you want to hit with that, and some times you are going to fail the test either only getting 1's to re-roll or maybe nothing. And trust me having played TS every edition they existed, you will fail that casting roll when you really need it at times.

I think the real problem with them is not spamming 3 of them. I think the issue is that for 80 points that move really quick and have a reactive move, that is great value for an mission unit, but then they also have good damage out put, so you are kind of getting two bangs for your buck. I think you will see one unit of 6 (maybe 3) in almost every TS list. I certainly plan on bringing them in both of the lists I am contemplating.

Now the real units that you need to think about people spamming is the Mutalith. That thing is dangerous.

You're also talking about a unit that will absolutely shredded by heavy bolters. They practically require a Shaman to be good, and they really struggle to even benefit from the Tzaangor-focused detachment. Heck, using the detachment ability on them carries a 2/3 chance of killing one of your own models outright.

These things are Eldar levels of glass cannon, in my opinion.

 BorderCountess wrote:
You're also talking about a unit that will absolutely shredded by heavy bolters. They practically require a Shaman to be good, and they really struggle to even benefit from the Tzaangor-focused detachment. Heck, using the detachment ability on them carries a 2/3 chance of killing one of your own models outright.

These things are Eldar levels of glass cannon, in my opinion.

Eh...
Eldar are paying what - 15-17~ points per model for 1 wound T3 Aspect Warriors.
In this case for a unit of 6 you are paying 13.33~ points a model with 2 wounds. Sure there is plenty of D2 weapons out there - but also still a reasonable amount of D1.

Also their base shooting is quite good. I mean its a contrived example - but shoot some intercessors. 12 shots, 2 lethals, 4 regular hits. 4.66~ wounds. 3 Dead Intercessors. Return on 80 points of shooting of about 62%. Grand scheme of things killing a few Space Marines isn't mission critical - but it can add up. And this is on a fast unit with a free D6 reaction move that is obviously therefore just "good" at the scoring side of the game.

To turn it around, shoot them with 5 Intercessors. 20*2/3*1/2*2/3=4.44 wounds. Call it two dead. So a 33% points return. Just above half the above.
Break out the terror of 8th edition tables - a Dissie Ravager. 9*2/3*7/6*2/3*2/3=3.11. So say 3 for 40 points, from a 110 point vehicle - for a 36.4%~ return.

Basically its not as if these guys are in any sense invincible, but it seems like you have good odds of winning trades and helping score objectives etc.

I mean I doubt I'd ever have the models - but I've been talked into taking 3 squads in every list. Can't really see why you wouldn't.

 BorderCountess wrote:
You're also talking about a unit that will absolutely shredded by heavy bolters. They practically require a Shaman to be good, and they really struggle to even benefit from the Tzaangor-focused detachment. Heck, using the detachment ability on them carries a 2/3 chance of killing one of your own models outright.

These things are Eldar levels of glass cannon, in my opinion.

You can give them the Exalted Sorcerer on disk to protect them from ranged attacks. You're more than doubling the cost of the unit, but you're getting a fast caster with a reactive move that can't be shot outside 18" which is also pretty good. Not sure if the cost is worth the payoff though...


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Tyel wrote:


Basically its not as if these guys are in any sense invincible, but it seems like you have good odds of winning trades and helping score objectives etc.

I mean I doubt I'd ever have the models - but I've been talked into taking 3 squads in every list. Can't really see why you wouldn't.

Yeah, exactly. While they are rarely going to do anything flashy, They are a solid workhorse that can do a bit of everything whenever they are needed it to. And if they do get killed off, you're only down 80 points.