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My buddy is feeling nostalgic and wants to play 3rd edition again. I've never played it having formally started with 40k in 4th. I have the rules and a few of the codices. I've even found an online list builder for it (newrecruit.eu). It feels kind of incomplete compared to the later editions. Is there a collection of resources to add that make a "definitive" 3rd edition with WD articles, Chapter Approved, FAQs, etc? A final form if you will.

Funny you should ask, BanjoJohn has just put up a thread in the rules forum where they are collecting a 3rd ed battlebible:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/816543.page

3rd ed isn't that much different from 4th, there are just a few specific tweaks to LoS, charging and combat that were made.

If you've played 4th you can very easily play 3rd. However 3rd lasted longer than any other edition due to LoTR taking up resources, so they released alot of alternate/experimental rules through WD as soft updates until 4th.

 Hellebore wrote:
Funny you should ask, BanjoJohn has just put up a thread in the rules forum where they are collecting a 3rd ed battlebible:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/816543.page

Cool. Thanks.

 Hellebore wrote:
3rd lasted longer than any other edition due to LoTR taking up resources, so they released alot of alternate/experimental rules through WD as soft updates until 4th.

Good times. Good times.

I definitely liked that period for that increased creativity, it felt like a living rulebook with dynamic additions.

I'd prefer a 6 year cycle with that kind of system throughout rather than the current 3 year.

But I think the 3 year cycle is probably precisely calibrated to the average attention span of the majority of their customers, knowing they'll get tired of it in 3 years and to keep them in you have to do something new. The newer players wouldn't know any better.

It's only the multi generational players that it affects.

 Hellebore wrote:
I definitely liked that period for that increased creativity, it felt like a living rulebook with dynamic additions.

That's actually the crux of the problem for me. How much of the dynamic changes were embraced by the wider community? Were there some that were considered good changes and adopted by nearly all while others were universally dismissed?

 Arschbombe wrote:
That's actually the crux of the problem for me. How much of the dynamic changes were embraced by the wider community? Were there some that were considered good changes and adopted by nearly all while others were universally dismissed?

Some of the really early ones were folded into later books - such as the 5++ terminator saves.
GW also ran a few reprints - there were two different Chaos 3.5 books if I remember correctly.

FAQs were hit and miss. Most of them were more FAQ than errata (aka - play as written) but there were a couple of poorly edited books that needed more (again the chaos 3.5 codex is the prime example).

Chapter approved and forgeworld is where you start to see a more deviation as these were limited availability, but for the most part they were new units rather than rule changes. Their reception varied greatly group to group likely in response to how they were first used - bringing the last chancers wasn't going to ruffle many feathers, bringing forgeworlds 'your unit runs off the board, no saves' inferno shells was liable to give all forgeworld units a bad rep.

And finally tournament rules and clarifications were not even consistent between tournaments (I remember a highlander tournament pack back in the day that stated yes - necrons would be penalised for only having one troops choice in their codex - tough luck). Some of these packs did include errata and faqs that did address serious issues that GW didn't, but at the same time they were aimed at WAAC players and not casual games (i.e. the argument that models not affected by minor psychic powers were still affected by siren because they weren't the target, depending on what your interpretation of the word 'effect').

You can try and work your way through the changes that GW made and a 3rd edition battle bible will probably get you there.

However, I think part of the fun of 3rd is that everything you need to play some games is in the core book, including army lists. It's nice simplicity gives a relatively stripped down version of 40k compared to 2nd Edition. Before I went all-in on One Page Rules, I had already revisited 2nd edition (and not enjoyed it much) and was dabbling with the idea of playing some 40k straight from the 3rd edition book.

All this to say, before adding everything, I'd try a few games straight from the core book to see how you like the bones of the system before adding stuff.

If you like 3rd Edition, you can play my life destroying Anti-Fun "Telephone Pole" Imperial Guard Armoured Company.

Gather a bunch of Basilisks, Griffon Mortar Carriers, a smattering of Leman Russ Exterminators, and a Leman Russ Vanquisher... and Lord Solar Macharius. Then automatically go first and lay pie plates on your opponents.

Actually, don't play that army.

3rd edition is probably my favourite of all the 40k games I've played. (Have played RT, started with 2nd, and played 9th/10th).

The simplicity of the system is probably the main selling point for me, could probably run a half decent game of it right now without any rulebooks to hand whatsoever.

Crunch started to come in with units special rules, and most units would only have one or two special rules to remember if they weren't already an army wide rule.

In fact if I were to write my own rules set I'd probably take alot of inspiration from this edition, Any crunch you wanted could be spinkled on top.

Yes, I am working on the 3rd edition battle bible. I'm making my way through the last few army codex's. There's about 70 issues of white dwarf that cover all of 3rd edition, there's 3 "chapter approved" books that were released that cover some of the white dwarf articles, FAQ's and whatnot, there's also City Fight, codex armageddon, and codex eye of terror. And there's even Citadel Journal issues which came out with optional rules as well.

Even by the end of 3rd edition there were some optional alternative rules, like the "trial assault rules" were never official and you could choose to use those or the rules presented in the rulebook.

There's boat loads of stuff in 3rd edition. Tons of options. I lived through it all when it was coming out so much of it is coming back as like "remembered knowledge" but a lot of it is understandably difficult for people to grok if they're catching up from the beginning.

A simple way of describing it is that its very close to 4th edition, some codex's have fewer options, but in some ways there are many many options. So many options.

BanjoJohn wrote:
A simple way of describing it is that its very close to 4th edition, some codex's have fewer options, but in some ways there are many many options. So many options.

Late 3e/early 4e was the era of having a hundred options, of which the same handful were taken in almost every army either because they were some crazy wombo-combo, or because most of the other options were trap choices, knowledge checks, or ludicrously specialised.

I will say, some of the stuff with special character is a bit whack. Marneus calgar got such a huge downgrade from 2nd to 3rd. He had no invulnerable save in 3rd edition so he could get worn down by power weapons or one-shotted by a power fist.

BanjoJohn wrote:
I will say, some of the stuff with special character is a bit whack. Marneus calgar got such a huge downgrade from 2nd to 3rd. He had no invulnerable save in 3rd edition so he could get worn down by power weapons or one-shotted by a power fist.

It was true for all special characters, and monstrous creatures really. The avatar was a shadow of his bloodthirster smashing self from 2nd ed. The phoenix lords were pretty poor in 3rd. It took getting to 4th for them to get more interesting profiles.

3rd ed iirc actually started as a WW2 rule set from Rick and/or Andy which they retrofitted onto 40k. So they weren't looking for war ending combat monsters in their stats. Having said that, the average kill count of a marine character on the charge was pretty close to 2nd ed, if not exceeded it due to the lack of outnumbering bonuses. A charging captain with termi honours 2CCWs got 6 attacks, master crafting rerolled to hit meant they'd usually hit 5-6 times and kill 3+ enemy depending on how tough they were. A 2nd ed captain at WS7 would defeat 3 marines before drawing on the 4th and losing to 5th and 6th, potentially getting killed if you left your power fister to last, getting him several punches and taking off the captain's wounds.


Of all the things I don't like about 3rd ed, the treatment of characters as just slightly better generic characters was actually something I liked. I'm not a big fan of one guy going super saiyan. And primarchs can get in the bin with their currently ridiculous pandering profiles...

I agree with that, I don't necessarily think that special characters should have been uber powerful, but some kind of invulnerable save to prevent the chapter master from getting 1-shotted would be nice. A generic space marine force commander with power fist, storm bolter, and iron halo would have been more effective than marneus calgar, or even storm bolter and one lightning claw and an iron halo.
Some special characters did have invulnerable saves, and some feel okay not having them, but a chapter master is on a different level.

I never liked the way Instant Death worked. It led to small handful of (usually space marine) characters getting to ignore it (Adamantine Mantle, Rune of Chaos) while everyone else's characters just got instagibbed.

Actually come to think of it, it was sort of a parallel to the Walker v Monstrous Creature problem.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
I never liked the way Instant Death worked. It led to small handful of (usually space marine) characters getting to ignore it (Adamantine Mantle, Rune of Chaos) while everyone else's characters just got instagibbed.

Actually come to think of it, it was sort of a parallel to the Walker v Monstrous Creature problem.

I didn't mind it on super short range weapons like the Wraithguard had. It made sense for their weapons.

What I wasn't a huge fan of was the Basilisk Pie Plate erasing your command squad

I don't think there was a problem with the concept but as always the execution.

Rules that bypass instant death shouldn't have existed, or they should have had it resolve differently.

Ie ID could have been just causing 2 wounds instead of 1, which in the low damage era of 3rd would have been pretty dangerous.

In that era where you either got a save or you didn't, invulns were pretty mandatory for all characters. So I would have basically just made it an independent character rule - IC (X+) to reflect the character's plot armour...

An easy fix would be multiply wounds dealt by the target's W score before saves are rolled. Then it's unlikely a 3 W 5++ character will die instantly but even less likely for them be completely unharmed, which I feel works better for a guy with a forcefield getting hit by a krak missile.

 Hellebore wrote:
Ie ID could have been just causing 2 wounds instead of 1, which in the low damage era of 3rd would have been pretty dangerous.

Solves the instantly dead 3W hero problem without getting in the way of too much else, and gives them a little premium over the 2 wound variants.

Though 3e did really push the need for meat shields command squads.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
I never liked the way Instant Death worked. It led to small handful of (usually space marine) characters getting to ignore it (Adamantine Mantle, Rune of Chaos) while everyone else's characters just got instagibbed.

Actually come to think of it, it was sort of a parallel to the Walker v Monstrous Creature problem.

It's a parallel also because the solution can be the same. Multiwound Damage capacity for high powered weapons. If you can roll for the amount of Damage given, it brings MCs more into parity with Vehicles, and gives a slight reprieve against Instant Death.

I think I'd have just made every weapon Strength 8 and above cause 2 wounds instead of 1, make them a little better against characters and MC's

3rd edition was almost two editions. After the "trial close combat rules" came out, Marine codex 2.0, Chaos Marines 2.0, Dark Eldar 1.5, and Dark Angels 1.5 there was A LOT of bloat (but kind of good bloat).

Stats were also smaller back then. One wound, one attack marines. Terminators even started as 1-wound, 2- attacks, and no invulnerable save. Their 5++ got added in by FAQ later.

The expected lower stats were the cause of a veteran player blowing up on me once. He was totally surprised when a unit of 8 Ork Truck Boys wiped a full tactical squad in one turn. That's 28 attacks limiting g saves to a 4+, followed by 6 Nob attacks with a power claw.

I don't remember a Marine codex 2.0


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I think I'd have just made every weapon Strength 8 and above cause 2 wounds instead of 1, make them a little better against characters and MC's

That's an effective and simpler solution. Nice suggestion.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't remember a Marine codex 2.0

There wasn't one. Chaos was the only army that got a full second codex, with the Dark Angels and Dark Eldar both getting small updates in otherwise identical books.

There wasn't a marine codex 2.0, but you could argue with all of the alternative space marine chapter army lists that existed from white dwarf articles, and options for things like the land raider crusader, secondary librarian psychic powers, and the new transport rules, that marines, by FAQ and by Chapter Approved, became a second codex through editing.

BanjoJohn wrote:
There wasn't a marine codex 2.0, but you could argue with all of the alternative space marine chapter army lists that existed from white dwarf articles, and options for things like the land raider crusader, secondary librarian psychic powers, and the new transport rules, that marines, by FAQ and by Chapter Approved, became a second codex through editing.

Yeah I remeber all that stuff. I've still got my Chapter Approved books from that time, and they're filled with goodies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't remember a Marine codex 2.0

There wasn't one. Chaos was the only army that got a full second codex, with the Dark Angels and Dark Eldar both getting small updates in otherwise identical books.

Yeah, thought so. Imperial Guard got a 1.0 and a 2.0. The 2.0 one is the great Doctrines one.

Oh yeah, forgot about the Guard redo as well...

 insaniak wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I don't remember a Marine codex 2.0

There wasn't one. Chaos was the only army that got a full second codex, with the Dark Angels and Dark Eldar both getting small updates in otherwise identical books.

The Marine Codex got an updated second printing, but it was only small changes, like the 5+ invulnerable on Terminators and making the Emperor's Champion available to all Chapters. And it didn't get the 'updated' badge on the cover like the Dark Angels did, so both versions look identical.

This kind of discussion is why I made this thread in the first place. People have different recollections from their time with the edition which may have been at the end of the edition or closer to the beginning. Like the 5+ invulnerable save for terminators. My buddy remembers it as having always been that way. Whereas, even though I never played third, I knew it was added halfway through the edition through a WD article that was later republished in the first chapter approved book.

When I read the core rules for 3rd the impression I get is that it's really stripped down. No USRs like Feel No Pain or Eternal Warrior. I can't find anything in the rules that says you can't assault out of transports. Which I guess is why rhino rush was a thing that I've heard about. But again my buddy remembers differently. So we may actually be looking at 4th edition instead. LOL.