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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






 alextroy wrote:
I think a big reason that Horus Hersey can get away with Legends in Tournament Play is that their model range actually allows for easy kit-bashing while many of the current and future 40K models do not. Add in that many of the units never had models to begin with, meaning players were already kit bashing or converting this models and you have a much lower barrier for newer players to use those units also.

Also, they did hedge their stance, "...the current plan is that all official Warhammer-run events will allow legacy units."

It's a couple of reasons.

Firstly, Heresy is a smaller game i.e. there are far fewer armies and factions to play, and the units in those factions are 90% shared. Legion Tacticals are Legion Tacticals, Solar Aux Lasrifle Sections are Solar Aux Lasrifle Sections, there are not four or five variations on that one unit depending on which faction you play. There are named characters and unique units, but the wider number of armies is still smaller.

Secondly, and this is the really important one, there is practically no competitive Heresy scene in the community. That isn't to say one doesn't exist, as this can be seen in the likes of Throne of Skulls or at events like Adepticon. However, the vast majority of community and GW-sponsored/run events are narrative-based, and the Heresy community as a whole can be particularly picky on that front. That isn't to say that you aren't allowed to bring an army that will perform well, far from it, but if you've rocked up to an event with Stone Gauntlet Imperial Fists with 40 Phalanx Warders, Rogal Dorn, and 20 Lascannon Heavy Support, you will not be coming away with "Favourite Player". You'll find that a lot of Heresy events will do list checking and will ask people to tone down what they're bringing.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Okay, why are units with current models (HH) considered verboten for balance passes? Just wondering. Models on sale, currently available. So, why? Had rules in 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th. What changed?

Separation of Church (40k) and State (HH). Can't have people buying from the wrong product lines now can we?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




U.k

Put them on the app would help, even it was a button to toggle them.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Andykp wrote:
Put them on the app would help, even it was a button to toggle them.


I would definitely love to see this happen.
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think practicing for a tournament indicates a lack of integrity, Jake.


The way I read his post was people who go "I refuse to play you unless you tournament practice with me"

I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

If you want to tournament practice, arrange that ahead of time. Don't expect everyone at the store to cater to what you want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyldhunt wrote:


Third, I find the framing of the question a little weird. The only thing that really makes a legends unit a legends unit is that it isn't being regularly updated to keep it balanced in the context of competitive play. So if your hypothetical scenario involves regularly balancing/updating "legends" units, then it feels inacccurate to frame it as, "making legends units tournament legal." It's more like you're making legends units non-legends and then also just instantly making them unavailable through the GW store.


Yeah, I agree I did frame it a little weird. It's more that I was trying to think of what it would take to break the perception of people's self imposed aversion to Legends units. If they were "official" in the way that they seem to be now in HH, I thought that might be the way to go about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
... And, if rules came out which made Chronus really good, or that made Scout Snipers the go-to character killer unit, or some rules combo made the Thunderfire Cannon a unit-deleting monster, then those who had access to those limited edition units would be at an advantage.

That would seem to be an argument against making those units go-tos in future rules, rather than a reason to not use them now.


Essentially this. I get the reason to be weary of that, and if this was old GW where it took forever to correct balance issues, I'd be in agreement with Smudge. However, Now that we are getting points updates every three months and frequent balance passes, worst case scenario is some unintededed rules makes a bunch of people who already have models really strong for a few months until it gets nerfed... that already happens, it's just that now people can run out and buy a bunch of these busted units, only for them to be nerfed immediately after, so more money for GW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2025/07/07 16:15:52


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NE Ohio, USA

 Tawnis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think practicing for a tournament indicates a lack of integrity, Jake.


The way I read his post was people who go "I refuse to play you unless you tournament practice with me"

I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

If you want to tournament practice, arrange that ahead of time. Don't expect everyone at the store to cater to what you want.


One would think proper tourney prep would also include practice dealing with the unexpected.

Surely your foe fielding something out of Legends (especially some of the least seen options) should qualify.
   
Made in us
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In My Lab

 Tawnis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think practicing for a tournament indicates a lack of integrity, Jake.


The way I read his post was people who go "I refuse to play you unless you tournament practice with me"

I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

If you want to tournament practice, arrange that ahead of time. Don't expect everyone at the store to cater to what you want.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that being a weird (to me, at least) mentality.
But the idea that someone who only wants to practice for tourneys and therefore turns down games with Legends models or what-have-you isn't some kind of grievous wrong. You're allowed to turn a game down for any reason.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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On the Surface of the Sun aka Florida in the Summer.

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think practicing for a tournament indicates a lack of integrity, Jake.


The way I read his post was people who go "I refuse to play you unless you tournament practice with me"

I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

If you want to tournament practice, arrange that ahead of time. Don't expect everyone at the store to cater to what you want.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that being a weird (to me, at least) mentality.
But the idea that someone who only wants to practice for tourneys and therefore turns down games with Legends models or what-have-you isn't some kind of grievous wrong. You're allowed to turn a game down for any reason.


I never returned to a local game store, because their stable of players review people's lists and then decide if you are worth playing against.

They told me that I could play with them when I was serious and bought Canis Rex .

Which I'm never going to do. So now I play elsewhere.

There are all sorts of gate-keepers floating around the hobby.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Just because you're doing something right doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're doing...
CLICK HERE --> Mechanicus Knight House: Mine!
 Ahtman wrote:
Lathe Biosas is Dakka's Armond White.
 
   
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In My Lab

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think practicing for a tournament indicates a lack of integrity, Jake.


The way I read his post was people who go "I refuse to play you unless you tournament practice with me"

I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

If you want to tournament practice, arrange that ahead of time. Don't expect everyone at the store to cater to what you want.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that being a weird (to me, at least) mentality.
But the idea that someone who only wants to practice for tourneys and therefore turns down games with Legends models or what-have-you isn't some kind of grievous wrong. You're allowed to turn a game down for any reason.


I never returned to a local game store, because their stable of players review people's lists and then decide if you are worth playing against.

They told me that I could play with them when I was serious and bought Canis Rex .

Which I'm never going to do. So now I play elsewhere.

There are all sorts of gate-keepers floating around the hobby.
That's entirely within their rights.
And entirely within yours to say "Yeah, feth that, I'll play elsewhere." Which I definitely agree with.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lathe Biosas wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
I don’t think practicing for a tournament indicates a lack of integrity, Jake.


The way I read his post was people who go "I refuse to play you unless you tournament practice with me"

I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

If you want to tournament practice, arrange that ahead of time. Don't expect everyone at the store to cater to what you want.
Yeah, I don't disagree with that being a weird (to me, at least) mentality.
But the idea that someone who only wants to practice for tourneys and therefore turns down games with Legends models or what-have-you isn't some kind of grievous wrong. You're allowed to turn a game down for any reason.


I never returned to a local game store, because their stable of players review people's lists and then decide if you are worth playing against.

They told me that I could play with them when I was serious and bought Canis Rex .

Which I'm never going to do. So now I play elsewhere.

There are all sorts of gate-keepers floating around the hobby.
That's entirely within their rights.
And entirely within yours to say "Yeah, feth that, I'll play elsewhere." Which I definitely agree with.


Yeah, exactly. Those guys being toxic isn't going to change if the store owner forces them to play you. You're both just going to have a miserable game. Best to do what you did and find a better place to play.

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Minnesota

 Tawnis wrote:
I'm not sure if lack of integrity is the right way to phrase it, but I have met a few people like this and I just don't understand the mentality. They won't play someone with Legends because it would never come up in a tournament, but they are perfectly fine ROFLstoming Johnny newguy's casual thematic list because that's all the models he has.

It's easy: what they care about is winning. They want to stomp Johnny's casual army because it means they win. But their internet meta guide based on the latest tournament winners doesn't cover Legends units, so they don't know if they will win that game. They say they're "practicing for a tournament" to get out of playing a game that their internet guides haven't prepared them for.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
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In My Lab

I feel like people are hating on tournaments and more competitively-minded players far too much here.

Yes, you can be a tournament prick.
You can also be a fluffbunny prick.

Telling someone "I don't want to play you because you have Legends units," is no worse than saying "I don't want to play you because your army doesn't feel cohesive or thematic."
If you're just playing how you want to play, that's fine. It's when you're trying to dictate how others play that it's an issue.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Stealthy Kroot Stalker





 JNAProductions wrote:
I feel like people are hating on tournaments and more competitively-minded players far too much here.

Yes, you can be a tournament prick.
You can also be a fluffbunny prick.

Telling someone "I don't want to play you because you have Legends units," is no worse than saying "I don't want to play you because your army doesn't feel cohesive or thematic."
If you're just playing how you want to play, that's fine. It's when you're trying to dictate how others play that it's an issue.


Yeah, I wasn't talking about tournament players in general, I'm one of them myself, and most of us also like our fluffy games. I certainly enjoy running silly lists like oops all cavalry or taking my Imperial Agents for a spin.

It's more the specific person (and like you pointed out they can be on either side of this) who refuses to play against anything that they don't personally approve of. Both your examples are good, but I would also add the people who refuse to play against anyone who hasn't painted every single one of their models or any other kind of "you do this? that's the wrong way to play" mentality.

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