Biggest buffs & nerfs in 40k History.

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**-Guardsman-**

Arschbombe wrote:
Have you all forgotten the re-rollable 2++ on Screamers?

I haven't forgotten it, because I've never heard of it. Wow. I presume this required some kind of combo, like a psychic power and/or an aura?

**Tyel**

Calbear wrote:
A bit tangential, but I believe no multi-model unit in 40k should have a permanent 3++ invulnerable save against everything. A 3++ invulnerable save or 2++ invulnerable save might be justifiable if it's granted by a stratagem, or part of a Enhancement, or only works against ranged attacks, or it's only on an expensive & unique Character, but the idea of having a block of Marines or even a block of Custodes automatically shrugging off 2/3rd of all attacks regardless of any other roll just feels odious. And the only way to get around it is either mortal wounds, somehow removing the invulnerable save, or just keep spamming many attacks and hope you get lucky (and the former wasn't available in earlier editions).

In general, I'm not a fan of the ubiquity of invulnerable saves in 40k. In many cases, it feels like the Invulnerable Save is the real save and the typical armor save only matters when weaker units/weapons are shooting. Which calls in the question what is the value of armor penetration anyway if everything worth a damn will have 4++ save regardless of your AP value. Ideally, armor penetration values would be reduced across the board, but only special units would have permanent invulns while it is conditional for everyone else (similar to Feel No Pain). But there's only so much you can do with the limited granularity of a D6 system.

I think 3++ invuls are obnoxious because you can just "get lucky".

But... I'm not sure this is a D6 System issue, as... armour saves in general issue.

I mean for some reason 3++ is this obnoxious abomination - but shoot some MEQ (so... half the armies played atleast?) with AP- and its functionally the same? This is why most weapons have a pip of AP - but then in turn the better ones have to be AP-2 or higher. Which then invites the value of invuls.
Although with that said Invuls are often overvalued I think. If you have a 2+/4++, you are only benefiting if your unit is being hosed by AP-3 or higher. There some units that can put that out - but not that many.

I mean when we talk about marines - its usually a two way issue. Not only has the model got a Storm Shield so whatever you've shot at it has bounced on that 3++. But now its broken out a power fist or thunder hammer etc, and proceeded to kill whatever its charged into. What made it good was being odds on to win trades. If it was completely pillowfisted you wouldn't care.

Archons with a 2++ until you take a wound would I think be quite overpowered if Archons were one of the prime melee threats in 40k. But for most of 40k - like now - they are marginal at best. With full rerolls to hit and wound, I might get a Terminator. Scary stuff.

**JNAProductions**

-Guardsman- wrote:
Arschbombe wrote:
Have you all forgotten the re-rollable 2++ on Screamers?

I haven't forgotten it, because I've never heard of it. Wow. I presume this required some kind of combo, like a psychic power and/or an aura?

Cursed Earth times three, generally.
They natively rerolled saves of 1, but only had a 5++ normally.

**A.T.**

-Guardsman- wrote:
Arschbombe wrote:
Have you all forgotten the re-rollable 2++ on Screamers?

I haven't forgotten it, because I've never heard of it. Wow. I presume this required some kind of combo, like a psychic power and/or an aura?

Psychic Power - Forewarning or Cursed Earth depending on edition (4++)
Grimoire of true names (2++)
Daemon of Tzeentch (reroll 1s)

Warp surges on the warp storm table also granted +1 but wasn't needed here. 6th edition was awash with random tables and buff combos. And of course there was invisibility... +3 cover saves in 6th buffed up to snapshots only in 7th - if you can imagine playing against a 2++ rerolling unit that you only hit on 6s, and of course the joys of malefic summoning.

5th edition was up and down, particularly with GK and crons at the end, but 6e and 7e really went off the rails as there were much more durable and dangerous deathstars than the screamers by the end of it.

**Arschbombe**

JNAProductions wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
Arschbombe wrote:
Have you all forgotten the re-rollable 2++ on Screamers?

I haven't forgotten it, because I've never heard of it. Wow. I presume this required some kind of combo, like a psychic power and/or an aura?
Cursed Earth times three, generally.
They natively rerolled saves of 1, but only had a 5++ normally.

I had to look it up to remember how it worked. It wasn't particular to Screamers. They were just the best option because they were jetbikes who wanted to get into melee with S5 attacks at AP2 ( so ignored all armor saves). Daemons were natively 5++ saves from the core rules. Fateweaver could get powers from Divination. One of which was Forewarning that gave a unit a 4++. Then a Lord of Change would take the Grimoire of True Names. Each movement phase it could target a unit and improve its invuln save by 2 on a D6 roll of 3+. Fateweaver could re-roll a single D6 each turn for any purpose. And as pointed out Daemons of Tzeentch always rerolled save rolls of 1. So it was a bit convoluted, but it worked most of the time. Very unpleasant to deal with.

**Jayden63**

alextroy wrote:
Once upon a time, there was a weapon rule called Rending. A Rending weapon automatically wounded and could not be Saved on a Hit Roll of 6. Rending weapons were King. Then the edition changed and Rending automatically wounded and could not be Saved on a Wound Roll of 6. Many a unit and weapon wailed at the reduction in effectiveness.

I know this one all too well. My pack of 12 demonettes used to get 6 rending hits on the charge in 4th ed. It really made a bunch of 15 point T3 with a 5++ save models do their job. You send them into something expensive and delete it, because on your opponents next turn they vaporized to just about any amount of shooting. When it got changed to the wound roll that number dropped to three and suddenly those units started giving up VPs instead of winning them, because they just could no longer hit hard enough to earn those VPs before dying to the same amount of incoming fire as before.