The Emperor's Gift

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**dreadblade**

I've just read this, along with all the fluff in the new Crusade Armageddon expansion. So that covers both of Angron's Armageddon incursions and banishments by the Grey Knights...

I realise The Emperor's Gift is now 13 years old, and that the fluff/novels are now much more aligned with the miniatures and game, but a couple of things about the novel rankle a bit:

Firstly, Angron is described as being the size of a Warhound Titan, and he kills over 100 Grey Knight Terminators before he's banished. I'm all for impressive scale in the novels, but that seems a bit OTT. In Crusade Armageddon, a handful of Grey Knights take him down, with a one-on-one duel with a GMDK finishing him off.

Secondly, Logan Grimnar kills a Grey Knight Grand Master in cold blood in front of multiple inquisitors and an entire company of Grey Knights with no comeback at all. Literally none! Now I know that a Chapter Master is almost beyond reproach, but surely killing a Grey Knight Grand Master should have some consequences?

I enjoyed the novel, but those two details kind of ruined the immersion for me.

**Gert**

Grimnar kills Joros because he broke the rules of parlay and showed he was without honour.
His death was not only fair but also would have been entirely expected by any among the Wolves.

Keep in mind, until this point, the Wolves had taken no aggressive action against the forces of the Inquisition in the many engagements of the Months of Shame.

The "parlay" was an attempt by Kysnaros to force the Wolves to submit to the Inquisition, a plan that was always going to fail.

The Grey Knights then try to stop Grimnar and his guard from leaving via teleportiation so their plan can go ahead, so Grimnar and his guard kill them for it.

The Months of Shame are the prime example of the idiocy and self-defeating nature of the Imperium as well as the heavy-handedness of its secret police.

**dreadblade**

From the Space Wolves' point of view, sure, but from the Inquisition's point of view the Space Wolves were interfering with a containment operation, and instead of surrendering as expected, they killed a Grey Knight Grand Master (who was working for the Inquisition) right in front of them. But somehow that didn't seem to concern the Inquisition or add to the charges against the Space Wolves at all.

**Gert**

My dude the Inquisitor literally invades Fenris after that. That's what we would call "consequences".

**dreadblade**

He does, but I saw that as a result of the Space Wolves not cessating their campaign of blocking the Inquisition's containment operation rather than killing Joris. To me, Joris was introduced briefly as an egotistical character who nobody would miss, but that doesn't seem to fit well with the concept of a Grey Knight Grand Master to me.

**Gert**

Grimnar kills Joros, the other Inquisitorial troops try to keep him from teleporting away so they can imprison Grimnar and force the Wolves to submit to the Inquistion.

Turns out that's not a great plan when you're facing down the head of the Chapter widely known for being very good at killing and that has a legacy of going ape when fighting wizard Space Marines.

There would have been consequences, if the Wolves hadn't done a lot of killing and gotten away, and then beaten the Inqusitors forces at Fenris.

And to be clear this is not a "Wolves are bestest ever" thing, this is recognising the hubris of people who think a badge gives them supreme power and don't react well when they get called on it.

**Lathe Biosas**

It also teaches us that the greater daemon known as Mat Ward is no longer around.

If we was in charge of that story, all the Wolves would've been destroyed and Fenris scoured of life... not by the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, but by a neophyte on his first day on the job.

**RaptorusRex**

dreadblade wrote:
I've just read this, along with all the fluff in the new Crusade Armageddon expansion. So that covers both of Angron's Armageddon incursions and banishments by the Grey Knights...

I realise The Emperor's Gift is now 13 years old, and that the fluff/novels are now much more aligned with the miniatures and game, but a couple of things about the novel rankle a bit:

Firstly, Angron is described as being the size of a Warhound Titan, and he kills over 100 Grey Knight Terminators before he's banished. Whereas in Crusade Armageddon, a handful of Grey Knights take him down, with a one-on-one duel with a GMDK finishing him off. I'm all for impressive scale in the novels, but that seems a bit OTT.

Secondly, Logan Grimnar kills a Grey Knight Grand Master in cold blood in front of multiple inquisitors and an entire company of Grey Knights with no comeback at all. Literally none! Now I know that a Chapter Master is almost beyond reproach, but so is a Grey Knight Grand Master surely?

I enjoyed the novel, but those two details kind of ruined the immersion for me. Like the author took things a bit too far for dramatic effect, but unnecessarily.

The first thing is a matter of Daemons' size/power waxing and waning.

**jareddm**

Lathe Biosas wrote:
It also teaches us that the greater daemon known as Mat Ward is no longer around.

If we was in charge of that story, all the Wolves would've been destroyed and Fenris scoured of life... not by the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, but by a neophyte on his first day on the job.

Except the novel had to be rewritten in large portions because the Grey Knights 5e codex came out. Remember, 13 years old. It is exactly what the Ward Grey Knights were intended to be.

**Lathe Biosas**

jareddm wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
It also teaches us that the greater daemon known as Mat Ward is no longer around.

If we was in charge of that story, all the Wolves would've been destroyed and Fenris scoured of life... not by the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, but by a neophyte on his first day on the job.
Except the novel had to be rewritten in large portions because the Grey Knights 5e codex came out. Remember, 13 years old. It is exactly what the Ward Grey Knights were intended to be.

Huh. So the novel was Tzeentchian propaganda. Gotcha.

Was any of the novel referenced in the codex?

**jareddm**

Lathe Biosas wrote:
jareddm wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
It also teaches us that the greater daemon known as Mat Ward is no longer around.

If we was in charge of that story, all the Wolves would've been destroyed and Fenris scoured of life... not by the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, but by a neophyte on his first day on the job.
Except the novel had to be rewritten in large portions because the Grey Knights 5e codex came out. Remember, 13 years old. It is exactly what the Ward Grey Knights were intended to be.

Huh. So the novel was Tzeentchian propaganda. Gotcha.

Was any of the novel referenced in the codex?

Almost the entire novel is directly referenced in a side bar about the First Battle for Armageddon. Everything except for the direct assault on Fenris.

**Lathe Biosas**

jareddm wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
jareddm wrote:
Lathe Biosas wrote:
It also teaches us that the greater daemon known as Mat Ward is no longer around.

If we was in charge of that story, all the Wolves would've been destroyed and Fenris scoured of life... not by the Grand Master of the Grey Knights, but by a neophyte on his first day on the job.
Except the novel had to be rewritten in large portions because the Grey Knights 5e codex came out. Remember, 13 years old. It is exactly what the Ward Grey Knights were intended to be.

Huh. So the novel was Tzeentchian propaganda. Gotcha.

Was any of the novel referenced in the codex?

Almost the entire novel is directly referenced in a side bar about the First Battle for Armageddon. Everything except for the direct assault on Fenris.

Cool. I'm going to have to give it a read.

**dreadblade**

If you can get a free trial of Audible you can get the audio book for free.

**Lathe Biosas**

dreadblade wrote:
If you can get a free trial of Audible you can get the audio book for free.

Free is a good price.

**sigkill**

dreadblade wrote:

Firstly, Angron is described as being the size of a Warhound Titan, and he kills over 100 Grey Knight Terminators before he's banished. I'm all for impressive scale in the novels, but that seems a bit OTT.

I actually think this is quite appropriate. Angron is one of the killiest primarchs even before his corruption, and being a daemon primarch ought to make you even more powerful (or at least killy). It mostly feels wrong because in the game Angron is 385 points - certainly no slouch - while 100 terminators is 3800 points and would wipe him entirely. Angron ought to be too strong to fit in a game of 40k, but of course then we would not have his cool model.

A Warhound titan isn't even that big - maybe around 14m. Sci-fi and fantasy is full of monsters of that size. A daemon primarch ought to be an apocalyptic force; not just a minor challenge for a scout titan. (In the Siege of Terra, Sanguinius single-handedly defeats a Warlord Titan, and while Sanguinius is perhaps a better fighter than Angron, he is not that much better.)

**Gert**

Hard disagree on Bird Boy being only a little bit better than Angry Ron.

He bodies both the Red Angel and Khabanda at the Siege and that's after months of fighting on the walls against all the horrors of Chaos.

That isn't to say that Angron isn't good in a scrap. He's a raging ball of chainsaws that gets pointed in one direction and breaks everything in his way.

**JNAProductions**

Gert wrote:
Hard disagree on Bird Boy being only a little bit better than Angry Ron.

He bodies both the Red Angel and Khabanda at the Siege and that's after months of fighting on the walls against all the horrors of Chaos.

That isn't to say that Angron isn't good in a scrap. He's a raging ball of chainsaws that gets pointed in one direction and breaks everything in his way.

Better, as-in, more skilled in a fight?
100%.

Better, as-in, more able to kill and survive?
Absolutely not. Not when Angron is empowered directly by Khorne.

**BorderCountess**

JNAProductions wrote:
Gert wrote:
Hard disagree on Bird Boy being only a little bit better than Angry Ron.

He bodies both the Red Angel and Khabanda at the Siege and that's after months of fighting on the walls against all the horrors of Chaos.

That isn't to say that Angron isn't good in a scrap. He's a raging ball of chainsaws that gets pointed in one direction and breaks everything in his way.
Better, as-in, more skilled in a fight?
100%.

Better, as-in, more able to kill and survive?
Absolutely not. Not when Angron is empowered directly by Khorne.

Angron wrecking a whole fleet on his own during Arks of Omen was really just Khorne cheating and letting Angron instantly respawn instead of actually waiting for his timer to cool down. If I got to re-form instantly no matter how many times I got vaporized I'd be able to kill a whole army, too.

**Lathe Biosas**

BorderCountess wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Gert wrote:
Hard disagree on Bird Boy being only a little bit better than Angry Ron.

He bodies both the Red Angel and Khabanda at the Siege and that's after months of fighting on the walls against all the horrors of Chaos.

That isn't to say that Angron isn't good in a scrap. He's a raging ball of chainsaws that gets pointed in one direction and breaks everything in his way.
Better, as-in, more skilled in a fight?
100%.

Better, as-in, more able to kill and survive?
Absolutely not. Not when Angron is empowered directly by Khorne.

Angron wrecking a whole fleet on his own during Arks of Omen was really just Khorne cheating and letting Angron instantly respawn instead of actually waiting for his timer to cool down. If I got to re-form instantly no matter how many times I got vaporized I'd be able to kill a whole army, too.

He's a speedier version of Lucius the Eternal or Vulkan.