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 Wyldhunt wrote:


If you agree that 0-1 can be a limitation for mechanics that by their nature would be a problem if armies could take multiples of them, then hey! Common ground! Good deal.
If you're instead saying that all armies should basically just have some number of undercosted units that are then "balanced" by a 0-1 restriction, I disagree with you.

I disagree with the premise that named characters are automatically undercosted. Belial is actually cheaper than the generic Terminator Captain. And worse.
The basic power armor captain is X number of Points.
Original Sicarius is X+5 and probably undercosted.
New Sicarius is X+15 and lost a bunch of what he had, got a new Rites of Battle-esque ability that can now be used, So I'd say he is probably now being costed closer to if not correctly
Ventris is also X+15 and about right.

A Gravis Captain is Y points.
Calgar in Gravis Armor is Y + 120 points. About half of that is explained by two Bladeguard bodyguards. Two enhancements the Chapter Master stat upgrades and some boosted wargear for 60 points doesn't feel undercosted.

A Terminator Captain is Z points.
Terminator Calgar (with the exact same stats and gear just without the two extra models and their bespoke rule) is Y+60 and Z+45 leading me to believe the cost problem with Calgar - if there is one - is in the Terminator Captain or the Aggressor Captain.

* Honor Guard of Macragge: He gets feel no pain wihle he's attached to a squad of honor guard. Other captains could probably have body guards that are especially good at keeping their bosses from getting sniped out.

You're getting Honor Guard of Macragge very wrong. He gets the FNP when the two Victrix Guard are still alive not the entire bodyguard. That rule is there to let the Bodyguard he comes with at least try to prevent PRECISION.

While this unit contains one or more Victrix Honour Guard models, this unit’s MARNEUS CALGAR model has the Feel No Pain Yadda Yadda

I was under the impression that the honor guard were the entirety of the unit rather than just models that could join another unit. My bad. Although the point I was making still stands. This is essentially a rule that lets a VIP's protectors protect him from getting sniped by giving Calgar FNP. There's nothing about Calgar that makes him the only marine in the galaxy capable of being protected from snipers (and other precision attacks) by his personal guards.

Just to be clear because your phrasing in the above quote was a little ambiguous, we're both on the same page that I was saying this rule just gave Calgar FNP, right? I wasn't saying that the entire unit he's attached to gets FNP.

Yes, I didn't think you meant the entire unit got FNP, I think you were incorrectly describing the ability as requiring the opponent to chew through 30 or more T6ish wounds of Bodyguard to get rid of the FNP. I also think you're incorrect for trying to claim this rule was about Calgar. Terminator Calgar does not have this rule. This rule was about the two bodyguards. When they went away because he switched to Terminator Armor, the rule went away.

Did you get this so extremely wrong on purpose or in "good faith"?

You're making a lot of personal attacks in this thread, so I thought it might be good to clarify exactly what you're suggesting here. Hypothetically, in this scenario where I'm intentionally going out of my way to get a rule slightly wrong, what's my goal? Are you picturing me crouched over a keyboard plotting out ways to like, ruin your life by suggesting some named character datasheets become generic options instead? Walk me through that scenario, Breton. What kind of villainous antics am I up to?

I asked a question. Like you do when you ask if I'm trolling or in good faith. If you thought it was a personal attack, why did you do it?

And I strongly disagree. Inspiring Leader definitely should NOT be readily available. It is way too mechanic breaking

Cool. Fair enough. Then as Insectum suggested, make it a 0-1 upgrade option for generic characters. And chiming in on your follow-up conversation with Insectum:

It probably shouldn't be for every chapter (master). Doctrines are/were primarily a UM thing.

There's a genuine argument to be made here about wanting to protect niches and faction personality. I can definitely recognize that. Hey! More common ground!

Now that said, I'd be tempted to look at a rule like this not asa *doctrine* thing but as a general mobility thing. Plenty of armies have access to a similar rule to this either as a strat, a character ability, or whatever.

No, they (generally) don't. They have access to PART of the rule. I JUST finished explaining this. They have some PART of this ability but not the whole thing. Firestorm gives you Assault which lets you advance and shoot. But not Fall back and Shoot. Stormlance lets you charge after an advance or a fallback - the Hit and Run rule from earlier White Scars identity. As I just said, The only place Marines can get this sort of rule outside of Calgar is in the Bastion Det and I suspect that's a testbed for improving BATTLELINE units.

Generally, it just reflects the unit being "slippery" and "mobile." So I think there's a case to be made for letting a generic character do something similar. A white scar bike captain smashing his way from what combat to another without stopping would be pretty well represented by this rule. So would a raven guard captain commanding his squad to break away from the chaff so they can focus on attacking a priority target.

Trying to set aside as many variables as possible for the sake of finding more common ground, would you at laest agree that a generic UM captain could reasonably have this ability if it were limited to being a 0-1 option? At that point, it's 0-1 so no worries about it being too strong when taken by multipel units. It's UM, so no worries about wanting a doctrine-like rule to be limited to the doctrine chapter. The only difference at that point is that it's not specifically locked to the datasheet of a power fist guy who also hangs out with his honor guard.

To be honest, no. I can and repeatedly have agreed with the general concept - that most bespokes should be part of a generic character builder - but in this particular case no this particular one I wouldn't turn it loose on the public - especially in a system that allows you to stack two bespokes/enhancements to build the generically bespoke nameds. And doubly so in a system that lets you attach two characters that could theoretically stack FOUR Enhance/Bespokes. I think that would easily create a multitude of Aggressor Bomb stackings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you can reasonably make rules for every single member of a class of unit, I think they’re fine being bespoke.

Primarchs have 16, at most, for 40k. You can make 16 datasheets.
Phoenix Lords have less than a dozen. You can definitely have a datasheet for each one.

There’s around four digits worth of Chapter Masters. You could technically make a sheet for each of them, but that’s wildly impractical.

They definitely shouldn't even try. Those chapters aren't theirs to do it with. I mean sure they put the names and color schemes of what? 50? 60? of them in a Space Marine Codex, but they've put almost no fluff out there for them. Those are the player's chapters. And that's even before the truly DIY chapters. GW should not be making those datasheets. That's what the DIY Character creator should be for. They SHOULD make datasheets for all the chapters (but not necessarily all the characters) they DO "own". The 8 Primogenitors, and a couple of the subsequent foundings (Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Fleshtearers, etc. They should make Chapter Master, Chief Libby, Master of Sanctity, Captain Iconic, Captain Black Sheep, and anything fluffy. They should make generic Chatacter Blister Packs and Chapter Specific Character Upgrade packs. So you they don't have to make a Gregor Dessian model, you just buy the right Armor Base, and use upgrade sprue pieces 7 through 12 which are arms, shoulderpads, a head, and a chest piece or something. They should have one iconic Captain for each chapter - the guy who does it exactly the way that chapter does things (think Suboden) and they should have a Blacksheep Captain (think Sammael but not that Black sheep means biker - Dark Angels are kind of the Terminator Chapter).

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you can reasonably make rules for every single member of a class of unit, I think they’re fine being bespoke.

Primarchs have 16, at most, for 40k. You can make 16 datasheets.
Phoenix Lords have less than a dozen. You can definitely have a datasheet for each one.

There’s around four digits worth of Chapter Masters. You could technically make a sheet for each of them, but that’s wildly impractical.

They definitely shouldn't even try. Those chapters aren't theirs to do it with. I mean sure they put the names and color schemes of what? 50? 60? of them in a Space Marine Codex, but they've put almost no fluff out there for them. Those are the player's chapters. And that's even before the truly DIY chapters. GW should not be making those datasheets. That's what the DIY Character creator should be for. They SHOULD make datasheets for all the chapters (but not necessarily all the characters) they DO "own".

But why?

Genuinely, why? If they can trust the players to make the Chapter Masters and Captains for their own Chapters, why not for the Big Chapters? Why do you need GW to make the ENTIRE Chapter Command for those Chapters? Can't GW just say "hey, Chapter Master Biggus Namius can be represented with X abilities, Captain Lessus Importus can be represented with Y, and Chief Librarian Nerdicus should take Z".

If you're concerned about players only picking the "broken" options, then should we not also be concerned by players picking "broken" named characters (ie, Calgars and Ventrises showing up in every Ultramarines army)? Players will, as I'm sure you're aware of, optimise the fluff out of something if they want to. So why does it matter about if they take the most powerful abilities on their custom characters? They're already doing that, via taking the most effective Epic Heroes in the first place.

I genuinely don't get why you believe that GW *should* do this. Why do they NEED to make all these bespoke characters, especially if you're also going to claim that players should be able to make custom heroes themselves, just not specifically from the Big Chapters? What does that add to the game?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you can reasonably make rules for every single member of a class of unit, I think they’re fine being bespoke.

Primarchs have 16, at most, for 40k. You can make 16 datasheets.
Phoenix Lords have less than a dozen. You can definitely have a datasheet for each one.

There’s around four digits worth of Chapter Masters. You could technically make a sheet for each of them, but that’s wildly impractical.

They definitely shouldn't even try. Those chapters aren't theirs to do it with. I mean sure they put the names and color schemes of what? 50? 60? of them in a Space Marine Codex, but they've put almost no fluff out there for them. Those are the player's chapters. And that's even before the truly DIY chapters. GW should not be making those datasheets. That's what the DIY Character creator should be for. They SHOULD make datasheets for all the chapters (but not necessarily all the characters) they DO "own".

But why?

Genuinely, why? If they can trust the players to make the Chapter Masters and Captains for their own Chapters, why not for the Big Chapters? Why do you need GW to make the ENTIRE Chapter Command for those Chapters? Can't GW just say "hey, Chapter Master Biggus Namius can be represented with X abilities, Captain Lessus Importus can be represented with Y, and Chief Librarian Nerdicus should take Z".

Because GW "owns" those Chapters. Players "own" their own chapters. GW has chosen to control some chapters, and thus they should fully support those Chapters they chose.

If you're concerned about players only picking the "broken" options, then should we not also be concerned by players picking "broken" named characters (ie, Calgars and Ventrises showing up in every Ultramarines army)? Players will, as I'm sure you're aware of, optimise the fluff out of something if they want to. So why does it matter about if they take the most powerful abilities on their custom characters? They're already doing that, via taking the most effective Epic Heroes in the first place.

I genuinely don't get why you believe that GW *should* do this. Why do they NEED to make all these bespoke characters, especially if you're also going to claim that players should be able to make custom heroes themselves, just not specifically from the Big Chapters? What does that add to the game?

There are 8 more captains beyond the two I said should be made. I get you don't get it, but I don't get why you don't get it. Those are the Chapters GW made. They should be the ones to fully support and flesh out all of those chapters. They should also create a matrix so people can make their own dudes for their chapters. They shouldn't make the Chapter Command of Chapters they opened up to the players by not doing anything but color scheme or that players made entirely themselves. This isn't contradictory.

And why is “Here’s a datasheet to represent Calgar and no one else,” better than “Here’s a datasheet that, with upgrades ABC, represents Calgar.”?

Edit: I will also note that at no point have I called for people to be unable to field Calgar-mini or rules.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And why is “Here’s a datasheet to represent Calgar and no one else,” better than “Here’s a datasheet that, with upgrades ABC, represents Calgar.”?

Edit: I will also note that at no point have I called for people to be unable to field Calgar-mini or rules.

As I just mentioned Upgrade A (the Inspiring Leader movement Super Doctrines) should be locked down. Hard. Further Upgrade B, being the Gauntlets of Ultramar should be Calgar only. What is the difference between a Calgar datasheet, and a datasheet that represents Calgar already making all the decisions for you and representing Tor Garaddon already making all the decisions for you, in addition to now making the datasheet 2 pages long?

Because there should be customization. The ability to mechanically express a variety of characters, from GW’s creations to your own. Something that is currently lacking.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because there should be customization. The ability to mechanically express a variety of characters, from GW’s creations to your own. Something that is currently lacking.

How does a datasheet that makes Calgar with Options ABC (and theoretically) Tor Garadon with Options DEF etc allow for customization?

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because there should be customization. The ability to mechanically express a variety of characters, from GW’s creations to your own. Something that is currently lacking.

How does a datasheet that makes Calgar with Options ABC (and theoretically) Tor Garadon with Options DEF etc allow for customization?

AEF.
BCD.
AFG.

I thought that’d be pretty obvious. It’s not “Here’s one option to make Calgar,” it’s “Calgar is a Captain, upgraded to Chapter Master. He is armed with twin MC Powerfists, and an MC Storm Bolter. He has the Nimble and Tactical upgrades from the Leadership category.”

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because there should be customization. The ability to mechanically express a variety of characters, from GW’s creations to your own. Something that is currently lacking.

How does a datasheet that makes Calgar with Options ABC (and theoretically) Tor Garadon with Options DEF etc allow for customization?

AEF.
BCD.
AFG.

I thought that’d be pretty obvious. It’s not “Here’s one option to make Calgar,” it’s “Calgar is a Captain, upgraded to Chapter Master. He is armed with twin MC Powerfists, and an MC Storm Bolter. He has the Nimble and Tactical upgrades from the Leadership category.”

One of the problems with that is you just eliminated the Gauntlets of Ultramar. Which means eliminating the Talon of Horus. And Drach’nyen. And Maugetar. And Gnarlrod. And Gorechild. And all the wargear that is in itself a character in the world.

No. It doesn’t.

The Gauntlets of Ultramar would still exist. They would be represented by twin MC Powerfists and the MC Storm Bolter.

 JNAProductions wrote:
No. It doesn’t.

The Gauntlets of Ultramar would still exist. They would be represented by twin MC Powerfists and the MC Storm Bolter.

That's the point I just made. Its not the Gauntlets of Ultramar. Its a hum drum pair of powerfists. Its not the Talon of Horus. Its just a claw. Its not Drach'nyen its just a sword.

It's not a hum drum pair of Powerfists and Storm Bolter. It's a Master Crafted pair of Powerfists and a Master Crafted Storm Bolter combined together by GW and given the name Gauntlets of Ultramar, an example of what players could build themselves. Except my Chapter Master instead chooses a Power Sword, gives it the Master Crafted upgrade, then chooses a Melta Pistol, and I combine them both into a polearm and I call it the Staff of Fire.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's not a hum drum pair of Powerfists and Storm Bolter. It's a Master Crafted pair of Powerfists and a Master Crafted Storm Bolter combined together by GW and given the name Gauntlets of Ultramar, an example of what players could build themselves. Except my Chapter Master instead chooses a Power Sword, gives it the Master Crafted upgrade, then chooses a Melta Pistol, and I combine them both into a polearm and I call it the Staff of Fire.

No its not. Its a unique set of power fists with an underslung something bolter (Its no longer a storm bolter with the arrival of Aggressors) once worn by Roubute Guilliman himself before being handed down to the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. At one point, when swarming was a thing, it made it impossible to be swarmed.

The Talon of Horus was originally called the Warmaster's Talon, it was created by Master Adept Urtzi Malevolus, and became a badge of the Warmaster's Office. It was the weapon that killed the Primarch Sanguinius.

There's a difference between these types of weapons and the Talssarian Tempest Blade, or a Diresword, or an Axe of Ultramar

I'm kind of confused what the disconnect going on in this thread is. I feel people are making the argument that a good strong set of customization options would be a fun way to express characters, and that most (not all but most) named characters could then be specific builds of those options to show what exactly you can do. That way Calgar has ABC, Dante has DEF, Shrike has GHI, and Chapter Master So and So has AH while Such and Such has CDG, etc. People are using Space Marines merely because it is the easiest, but at his core Yarrick is a Commissar with a Power Fist, laser eye, and Bolt Pistol (I think I forget the exact gun he carries) with a rule that makes him a bit harder to kill outright (which could be a generic ability that someone can then pick from). Same can be said for a lot of characters.

Here's hoping the new character customization rules are fun. From the warcom articles it feels kind of simplistic but I've seen things that seem bland but them come out really cool later. But for examples of character customization, I mean just look at older 40k, like the 3.5 dexes are always held on a pedestal for a reason, or for modern stuff look at Old World - big character gets 100 points of magical items to customize, small character gets 50 points, also most characters have a few options they can pick of the non magic variety.

 kurhanik wrote:
I'm kind of confused what the disconnect going on in this thread is. I feel people are making the argument that a good strong set of customization options would be a fun way to express characters, and that most (not all but most) named characters could then be specific builds of those options to show what exactly you can do. That way Calgar has ABC, Dante has DEF, Shrike has GHI, and Chapter Master So and So has AH while Such and Such has CDG, etc. People are using Space Marines merely because it is the easiest, but at his core Yarrick is a Commissar with a Power Fist, laser eye, and Bolt Pistol (I think I forget the exact gun he carries) with a rule that makes him a bit harder to kill outright (which could be a generic ability that someone can then pick from). Same can be said for a lot of characters.

Here's hoping the new character customization rules are fun. From the warcom articles it feels kind of simplistic but I've seen things that seem bland but them come out really cool later. But for examples of character customization, I mean just look at older 40k, like the 3.5 dexes are always held on a pedestal for a reason, or for modern stuff look at Old World - big character gets 100 points of magical items to customize, small character gets 50 points, also most characters have a few options they can pick of the non magic variety.

The Disconnect is a combination of the end result goal. Some want to get completely get rid of special characters in and of themselves. Some want to effectively but not outright get rid of special characters. Personally I want to keep the special characters we have (and have GW finish making the ones they should for all of the GW Craftworlds, Chapter+Companies, Septs, Dynasties etc) and have an relatively equal option to make your own for those chapters/companies/septs/craftworlds etc Which means neither "solution" is right the whole time, and we'd have to take some of each.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
No. It doesn’t.

The Gauntlets of Ultramar would still exist. They would be represented by twin MC Powerfists and the MC Storm Bolter.

That's the point I just made. Its not the Gauntlets of Ultramar. Its a hum drum pair of powerfists. Its not the Talon of Horus. Its just a claw. Its not Drach'nyen its just a sword.

4th edition codex:

The Gauntlets of Ultramar are a pair of master-crafted power fists with built-in bolters that fire with the same weapon profile as a single storm bolter (note that only the power fists count as being master-crafted)

Dudeface wrote:

The Gauntlets of Ultramar are a pair of master-crafted power fists with built-in bolters that fire with the same weapon profile as a single storm bolter (note that only the power fists count as being master-crafted)

Ta daaaa!!!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

The Gauntlets of Ultramar are a pair of master-crafted power fists with built-in bolters that fire with the same weapon profile as a single storm bolter (note that only the power fists count as being master-crafted)

Ta daaaa!!!

And to reinforce how pointless this conversation is, the three components of that weapon, power fist, storm bolter and master crafted have all had different rules over the last 35 years despite ostensibly representing the same thing.

Are powerfists
S8 ap-5 dam1 like 2nd or
Sx2 ignore saves strike last like in 3rd or
Sx2 ap2 specialist melee weapon, unwieldy like in 6th or
S? Ap-2 D2 -1 to ws like in 8th

Master crafted in 2nd ed had better range modifiers
In 3ed it was reroll to hit
Now it's extra damage


There is no objective measure for how they should be represented.

For their original appearance they weren't even master crafted. Gw will never settle in a profile because because it takes away their ability to resell you the same game with slightly different rules. If they decide that power fists should make you go last again that will happen and apologists will claim it's the best representation yet. Until they change it back and then THAT version will be the best.

Two chapter masters armed with a pair of powet fists in 40k don't have enough differences to need bespoke weapon profiles

IIRC 'Master Crafted' became a modifier for wargear later, and before you just had 'Master Crafted Bolt Pistol' and their ilk as their own wargear cards with their own unique profiles.

Breton wrote:

2) They don't want the players to keep "breaking" the game. It still happens when we can't sit there and mix and match 2 or more out of a pool of 20-30 Enhancements on generic characters - how much worse would it be if we could? Imagine a Terminator Captain leading a squad of Terminators who get to Fallback, Advance, Charge, Shoot yadda yadda all day long (Inspiring Leader). Now imagine when they advance and charge they also add 1 to each/both rolls. (Grandmaster of the Ravenwing) How about Champion of the King's Guard (Arjac) and Oathbound(Ulrik) from the Space Wolves? I'm now making a 10 man Terminator Squad Plus a Terminator Captain who gives them both of those, and a Terminator Ancient that gives them the Trifold Path of Shadow from Shrike That unit now adds 1 to Hit and Wound, and Rerolls all hits and wounds vs a type keyword? and can't be shot from outside 12". And I still have a slot open on the Ancient for Inspiring Leader from Calgar. We SHOULD be able to apply multiple small to middling "enhancements" to every character to make them both typical of their type and distinctly different from each other. But those pre-chosen bespokes on the nameds need to be carefully screened for inclusion. They made sure you can't double up with those two Wolves bespoke enhancements based on who each character could join. I would not want to see Inspiring Leader from Calgar stacked on top of Knight Champion of Macragge OR Lead from the Front off of Sicarius.

I find this a puzzling argument because there are plenty of ways to mitigate this sort of thing. To name a few:

- Artefacts & Warlord Traits (as distinct from 'regular' wargear) were both 1 per model and 1 (of each type) per army. This means you can't just stack half a dozen artefacts onto a single model to create Godking Buffzilla. Nor can you have multiple of the same bonuses in your army.

This would, incidentally, also be a good way to represent the defining aspects of many special characters without needing to have unique dataslates for them. Rather than making their specific dataslate unique, you would instead make their key components (weapons, abilities or whatever) unique such that an army is still only able to represent one.

- Another option would be something akin to Lead Roles for Harlequins in 9th, whereby they can buy a new ability but it replaces their core ability (meaning, again, you can't stack abilities). Thus, a model would have to choose between Leader from Calgar, Knight Champion of Macragge or Lead from the Front (and once again, they could all be 1/army).

- If you prefer the detachment route, you could further lock the above to specific detachments (e.g. if you want Calgar's leadership ability, you need to be playing Ultramarines, which would thus lock you out of the equivalents from Space Wolves, Black Templars et al.).

Part of the reason I use these as examples is that they all of them are from 1 edition ago. So it's not as if this is uncharted territory for GW.

What's more, let's say GW doesn't trust its playerbase to not have fun wrong 'abuse' the system. The easiest way to fix that is by giving those players beta rules to playtest. Use their feedback to see which wargear combinations are problematic and need to be restricted or made mutually-exclusive.

Hell, they could even use similar feedback from prior editions, rather than just throwing all notes in the bin and starting again every time they stick a new number on the game version.

 Daba wrote:
IIRC 'Master Crafted' became a modifier for wargear later, and before you just had 'Master Crafted Bolt Pistol' and their ilk as their own wargear cards with their own unique profiles.

Yes it was two items in 2nd, a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol. Master crafting extended their ranges by 8 and 6 inches respectively and the bolt got a +1 to hit at long range. Otherwise they were identical to the standard version. So mc has been longer range, rerolls to hit and extra damage. No consistency at all despite representing the same thing.

Its why there's no point in arguing over whether a weapon 'must' be distinctive for anything beyond personal preference. Gw certainly doesnt care as is abundantly clear when you just glance at virtually any weapon across editions.

Breton wrote:

 kurhanik wrote:
I'm kind of confused what the disconnect going on in this thread is. I feel people are making the argument that a good strong set of customization options would be a fun way to express characters, and that most (not all but most) named characters could then be specific builds of those options to show what exactly you can do. That way Calgar has ABC, Dante has DEF, Shrike has GHI, and Chapter Master So and So has AH while Such and Such has CDG, etc. People are using Space Marines merely because it is the easiest, but at his core Yarrick is a Commissar with a Power Fist, laser eye, and Bolt Pistol (I think I forget the exact gun he carries) with a rule that makes him a bit harder to kill outright (which could be a generic ability that someone can then pick from). Same can be said for a lot of characters.

Here's hoping the new character customization rules are fun. From the warcom articles it feels kind of simplistic but I've seen things that seem bland but them come out really cool later. But for examples of character customization, I mean just look at older 40k, like the 3.5 dexes are always held on a pedestal for a reason, or for modern stuff look at Old World - big character gets 100 points of magical items to customize, small character gets 50 points, also most characters have a few options they can pick of the non magic variety.

The Disconnect is a combination of the end result goal. Some want to get completely get rid of special characters in and of themselves. Some want to effectively but not outright get rid of special characters. Personally I want to keep the special characters we have (and have GW finish making the ones they should for all of the GW Craftworlds, Chapter+Companies, Septs, Dynasties etc) and have an relatively equal option to make your own for those chapters/companies/septs/craftworlds etc Which means neither "solution" is right the whole time, and we'd have to take some of each.

Wouldn't having a robust character customization system and then keeping bespoke datasheets for the characters who wouldn't neatly fit into that system be an effective way to "take some of each"? If so, then it sounds like the main thing you and I disagree about is whether or not it makes sense to get rid of some existing bespoke datasheets and let them be handled by the generic character customization system.

Breton wrote:I disagree with the premise that named characters are automatically undercosted.

Cool! Do you think that named characters should ever be intentionally undercosted? Personally, I do not. Asking because I'm still trying to figure out if I was understanding the points you were making in previously posts correctly.

* Honor Guard of Macragge: He gets feel no pain wihle he's attached to a squad of honor guard. Other captains could probably have body guards that are especially good at keeping their bosses from getting sniped out.

Yes, I didn't think you meant the entire unit got FNP, I think you were incorrectly describing the ability as requiring the opponent to chew through 30 or more T6ish wounds of Bodyguard to get rid of the FNP.

Nope. Bolded the word in my quote for emphasis. All I was saying was that it's a rule that lets the guy's protectors protect him from sniper attacks more effectively.

I also think you're incorrect for trying to claim this rule was about Calgar. Terminator Calgar does not have this rule. This rule was about the two bodyguards. When they went away because he switched to Terminator Armor, the rule went away.

Sure. In which case, we can throw that rule out. The point I was making was that Calgar doesn't really have any abilities that are especially unique to himself (in terms of lore), so we can toss out that special ability and leave him with even fewer Calgar-specific things that justify him having his own datasheet. That's a point for the argument that Calgar could reasonably be represented with a generic datasheet, yes?

Did you get this so extremely wrong on purpose or in "good faith"?

You're making a lot of personal attacks in this thread, so I thought it might be good to clarify exactly what you're suggesting here. Hypothetically, in this scenario where I'm intentionally going out of my way to get a rule slightly wrong, what's my goal? Are you picturing me crouched over a keyboard plotting out ways to like, ruin your life by suggesting some named character datasheets become generic options instead? Walk me through that scenario, Breton. What kind of villainous antics am I up to?

I asked a question. Like you do when you ask if I'm trolling or in good faith. If you thought it was a personal attack, why did you do it?

Breton wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If you can reasonably make rules for every single member of a class of unit, I think they’re fine being bespoke.

Primarchs have 16, at most, for 40k. You can make 16 datasheets.
Phoenix Lords have less than a dozen. You can definitely have a datasheet for each one.

There’s around four digits worth of Chapter Masters. You could technically make a sheet for each of them, but that’s wildly impractical.

They definitely shouldn't even try. Those chapters aren't theirs to do it with. I mean sure they put the names and color schemes of what? 50? 60? of them in a Space Marine Codex, but they've put almost no fluff out there for them. Those are the player's chapters. And that's even before the truly DIY chapters. GW should not be making those datasheets. That's what the DIY Character creator should be for. They SHOULD make datasheets for all the chapters (but not necessarily all the characters) they DO "own".

But why?

Genuinely, why? If they can trust the players to make the Chapter Masters and Captains for their own Chapters, why not for the Big Chapters? Why do you need GW to make the ENTIRE Chapter Command for those Chapters? Can't GW just say "hey, Chapter Master Biggus Namius can be represented with X abilities, Captain Lessus Importus can be represented with Y, and Chief Librarian Nerdicus should take Z".

Because GW "owns" those Chapters. Players "own" their own chapters. GW has chosen to control some chapters, and thus they should fully support those Chapters they chose.

They don't own them any more than they "own" any published Chapter. The only Chapters GW doesn't "own" are completely homebrew ones. Anything named by GW is a GW Chapter, no matter if you're the Ultramarines or Omega Marines. So, can players only make custom heroes if they're not using a GW Chapter? What about if I want to represent Chaplain Leandros of the Ultramarines? Or Acheran? Or Chairon? Or Saul Invictus? Or Agemman?

If you're concerned about players only picking the "broken" options, then should we not also be concerned by players picking "broken" named characters (ie, Calgars and Ventrises showing up in every Ultramarines army)? Players will, as I'm sure you're aware of, optimise the fluff out of something if they want to. So why does it matter about if they take the most powerful abilities on their custom characters? They're already doing that, via taking the most effective Epic Heroes in the first place.

I genuinely don't get why you believe that GW *should* do this. Why do they NEED to make all these bespoke characters, especially if you're also going to claim that players should be able to make custom heroes themselves, just not specifically from the Big Chapters? What does that add to the game?

There are 8 more captains beyond the two I said should be made. I get you don't get it, but I don't get why you don't get it. Those are the Chapters GW made. They should be the ones to fully support and flesh out all of those chapters. They should also create a matrix so people can make their own dudes for their chapters. They shouldn't make the Chapter Command of Chapters they opened up to the players by not doing anything but color scheme or that players made entirely themselves. This isn't contradictory.

GW made the Chapter, but it doesn't mean that they need to prescribe everything to do with it. Will they publish a list of what units each company has, and you can only bring those units if you're playing that company? Will there be a list of names for every vehicle, so that every vehicle is correctly named? Why haven't GW gotten rid of the option for Ultramarines to play Vanguard Spearhead or Blood Angels to play Gladius?

Back to characters: GW could very well just say "yes, Marneus Calgar is the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. You can represent him by using a Captain in Terminator or Gravis Armour, with the following upgrades and wargear:
- Chapter Master
- Two Master Crafted Power Fists (grants Twinlinked)
- Two Master Crafted Storm Bolters (grants Twinlinked)
- Advance, Shoot and Charge Rule
- +1CP Rule
- +1 Toughness"

GW gets to dictate what "Marneus Calgar" is meant to be like, and doesn't need to make a unique datasheet to do it. Then, all they need to do is restrict exactly how many of each ability can show up (if that's what they're concerned about, which I personally don't think they are), and voila.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I thought that’d be pretty obvious. It’s not “Here’s one option to make Calgar,” it’s “Calgar is a Captain, upgraded to Chapter Master. He is armed with twin MC Powerfists, and an MC Storm Bolter. He has the Nimble and Tactical upgrades from the Leadership category.”

One of the problems with that is you just eliminated the Gauntlets of Ultramar.... And all the wargear that is in itself a character in the world.

Already been done in the past, GW's pre-empted you there.

5th edition Space Marines Codex:
Calgar: "Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile" - the only unique part is the bolter attachment, which has a bespoke profile.
Sicarius: "Talassarian Tempest Blade: This is a power weapon. If Sicarius wishes, he can attempt a single 'coup de grace' attack in lieu of his normal close combat attacks. If the coup de grace hits, it is resolved at a Strength of 6 and causes Instant Death, regardless of the wounded model's Toughness." - a regular power sword with a unique attack mode which it can swap out for. Also carries a regular plasma pistol, not even the new artisan one.
Tigurius: "Rod of Tigurius: The Rod of Tigurius is a master-crafted force weapon." Nothing unique except the name.
Cassius: "Infernus: This is a master-crafted combi-flamer, lovingly crafted and modified by Cassius himself. Note that the boltgun is loaded with hellfire rounds and will therefore wound any model on a 2+." A generic weapon, but has hellfire rounds (which were a generic upgrade that any Captain or Chapter Master could have). Still pretty normal.
Telion: "Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Telion commonly carries a boltgun equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It can be fired with the following profile" - the first COMPLETELY unique weapon on this list, and only because he had the very first Stalker Pattern Boltgun with bespoke rules. This is the correct use of a unique profile, because literally nothing like this existed anywhere else in the Codex.
Chronus: nothing unique or named
Pedro Kantor: "Dorn's Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has the following profile" - unique storm bolter profile, but ONLY refers to the storm bolter! The power fist is just a power fist, and isn't even called Dorn's Arrow.
Darnath Lysander: "The Fist of Dorn: This is a master-crafted thunder hammer. All hits from the Fist of Dorn are resolved at Strength 10 and add +1 to rolls on the vehicle damage table." - generic weapon, with an extra bit of strength and bonus rule. Still easily just reflected as a generic weapon, but I'll grant that this is more unique.
Kayvaan Shrike: "The Raven's Talons: These are a pair of master-crafted lightning claws. They also bestow the Rending special rule on Shrike's close combat attacks." - again, a generic weapon, with a single special rule. Slightly more unique than a normal weapon, but less so than Lysander's.
Vulkan He'stan: Two weapons! "The Gauntlet of the Forge: This armoured gauntlet can be fired as a heavy flamer." and "The Spear of Vulkan: This is a master-crafted relic blade." Literally two generic weapons. The only unique part is the name, and that Vulkan can have a heavy flamer. Still just represented with generic stats.
Kor'sarro Khan: "Moonfang: This is an ancient power sword and a relic of the White Scars Chapter. Any rolls to wound on which Kor'sarro scores a 6 will cause Instant Death, regardless of the target's Toughness." A generic power sword with a unique Devastating Wounds-esque effect. Again, doesn't need a unique profile, and can be represented with a special rule.

So, out of 10 heroes in the 5th edition codex, one has an entirely unique weapon profile (Telion), two have unique ranged weapon profiles but a generic melee (Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, and Pedro Kantor's Dorn's Arrow, which I *could* count seperately because Dorn's Arrow only refers to the storm bolter, and not the power fist in the 5th ed book), two have a generic weapon normally unavailable to them (Cassius and Vulkan), four have a generic weapon, with a single added special feature (Sicarius, Lysander, Shrike and Khan), and two have has completely generic weapons (Tigurius and Chronus).

Given that the majority of these characters only have generic weapon profiles (with a single added rule on them), this could easily be represented in the same way Enhancements are in current 10th ed (this model's X has +1 Y) or so on. All GW has to do is have a little page on each Chapter, and on it, it lists all these special characters, and then gives the list of what options to take in order to represent them. On the fluff pages for those characters, it can then say about how Sicarius' sword is actually the Talassarian Tempest Blade and his pistol is called Luxos, and so on.

And this isn't even getting into how most special rules in 10th are just drawn from a list of generic ones, and renamed before distribution.

 vipoid wrote:

Breton wrote:

2) They don't want the players to keep "breaking" the game. It still happens when we can't sit there and mix and match 2 or more out of a pool of 20-30 Enhancements on generic characters - how much worse would it be if we could? Imagine a Terminator Captain leading a squad of Terminators who get to Fallback, Advance, Charge, Shoot yadda yadda all day long (Inspiring Leader). Now imagine when they advance and charge they also add 1 to each/both rolls. (Grandmaster of the Ravenwing) How about Champion of the King's Guard (Arjac) and Oathbound(Ulrik) from the Space Wolves? I'm now making a 10 man Terminator Squad Plus a Terminator Captain who gives them both of those, and a Terminator Ancient that gives them the Trifold Path of Shadow from Shrike That unit now adds 1 to Hit and Wound, and Rerolls all hits and wounds vs a type keyword? and can't be shot from outside 12". And I still have a slot open on the Ancient for Inspiring Leader from Calgar. We SHOULD be able to apply multiple small to middling "enhancements" to every character to make them both typical of their type and distinctly different from each other. But those pre-chosen bespokes on the nameds need to be carefully screened for inclusion. They made sure you can't double up with those two Wolves bespoke enhancements based on who each character could join. I would not want to see Inspiring Leader from Calgar stacked on top of Knight Champion of Macragge OR Lead from the Front off of Sicarius.

I find this a puzzling argument because there are plenty of ways to mitigate this sort of thing. To name a few:

- Artefacts & Warlord Traits (as distinct from 'regular' wargear) were both 1 per model and 1 (of each type) per army. This means you can't just stack half a dozen artefacts onto a single model to create Godking Buffzilla. Nor can you have multiple of the same bonuses in your army.

The discussion is about creating named characters or generic characters equivalent to the named characters (or both) in a creation matrix . All the nameds pretty much have two bespokes (Warlord Traits) and at least one Relic (Super Master Crafted Weapons) The stated goal does involve a high degree of stacking. Even the generic builds now involve three Warlord Traits/Bespokes/Enhancements. The difference is two are preselected, and one is optional. The implied mechanics would allow for stacking multiples of the same Bespoke/Warlord Trait/Enhancement. I mean someone else has already suggested giving 0-1 to a potent one rather than allowing doubling and tripling and more implictly agreeing these bespokes/enhancements/etc would become not-1-per-army. And you already can double and triple up because many of those bespokes are on the same generic chracter you can take three times.

What's more, let's say GW doesn't trust its playerbase to not have fun wrong 'abuse' the system.

Do you think this snark helps? There have been how many times and how many ways they've had to released a major rework to end something game breaking like Aggressor Bombs?

I don't think designing it to my dreams would be easy.
And I am well aware that the more customizable a unit is, the greater the chance for there to be brokenly good options (whether in isolation or in combinations).

But "It'd be hard to do," is not the same as "It isn't worth doing."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
They don't own them any more than they "own" any published Chapter. The only Chapters GW doesn't "own" are completely homebrew ones. Anything named by GW is a GW Chapter, no matter if you're the Ultramarines or Omega Marines. So, can players only make custom heroes if they're not using a GW Chapter? What about if I want to represent Chaplain Leandros of the Ultramarines? Or Acheran? Or Chairon? Or Saul Invictus? Or Agemman?

Yes they do "own" them. and own them more. They're the ones fleshing them out already. If they start it, they should finish it. There should not be a mix of what they release and what others release in conflict.

If you're concerned about players only picking the "broken" options, then should we not also be concerned by players picking "broken" named characters (ie, Calgars and Ventrises showing up in every Ultramarines army)? Players will, as I'm sure you're aware of, optimise the fluff out of something if they want to. So why does it matter about if they take the most powerful abilities on their custom characters? They're already doing that, via taking the most effective Epic Heroes in the first place.

I genuinely don't get why you believe that GW *should* do this. Why do they NEED to make all these bespoke characters, especially if you're also going to claim that players should be able to make custom heroes themselves, just not specifically from the Big Chapters? What does that add to the game?

There are 8 more captains beyond the two I said should be made. I get you don't get it, but I don't get why you don't get it. Those are the Chapters GW made. They should be the ones to fully support and flesh out all of those chapters. They should also create a matrix so people can make their own dudes for their chapters. They shouldn't make the Chapter Command of Chapters they opened up to the players by not doing anything but color scheme or that players made entirely themselves. This isn't contradictory.

GW made the Chapter, but it doesn't mean that they need to prescribe everything to do with it. Will they publish a list of what units each company has, and you can only bring those units if you're playing that company? Will there be a list of names for every vehicle, so that every vehicle is correctly named? Why haven't GW gotten rid of the option for Ultramarines to play Vanguard Spearhead or Blood Angels to play Gladius?

Oh look. You're another one who even quotes something I said, and still lies about it not being said.

There are 8 more captains beyond the two I said should be made.

Back to characters: GW could very well just say "yes, Marneus Calgar is the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines. You can represent him by using a Captain in Terminator or Gravis Armour, with the following upgrades and wargear:
- Chapter Master
- Two Master Crafted Power Fists (grants Twinlinked)
- Two Master Crafted Storm Bolters (grants Twinlinked)
- Advance, Shoot and Charge Rule
- +1CP Rule
- +1 Toughness"

GW gets to dictate what "Marneus Calgar" is meant to be like, and doesn't need to make a unique datasheet to do it. Then, all they need to do is restrict exactly how many of each ability can show up (if that's what they're concerned about, which I personally don't think they are), and voila.

Thats how they chose to do it? And they slapped on extra rules. So it sounds like you're again being dishonest and you don't think GW gets to decide how Calgar is represented?

Already been done in the past, GW's pre-empted you there.

5th edition Space Marines Codex:
Calgar: "Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain a pair of integrated bolters that can be fired with the following profile" - the only unique part is the bolter attachment, which has a bespoke profile.
Sicarius: "Talassarian Tempest Blade: This is a power weapon. If Sicarius wishes, he can attempt a single 'coup de grace' attack in lieu of his normal close combat attacks. If the coup de grace hits, it is resolved at a Strength of 6 and causes Instant Death, regardless of the wounded model's Toughness." - a regular power sword with a unique attack mode which it can swap out for. Also carries a regular plasma pistol, not even the new artisan one.
Tigurius: "Rod of Tigurius: The Rod of Tigurius is a master-crafted force weapon." Nothing unique except the name.
Cassius: "Infernus: This is a master-crafted combi-flamer, lovingly crafted and modified by Cassius himself. Note that the boltgun is loaded with hellfire rounds and will therefore wound any model on a 2+." A generic weapon, but has hellfire rounds (which were a generic upgrade that any Captain or Chapter Master could have). Still pretty normal.
Telion: "Stalker Pattern Boltgun: Telion commonly carries a boltgun equipped with a targeter and loaded with silenced shells. It can be fired with the following profile" - the first COMPLETELY unique weapon on this list, and only because he had the very first Stalker Pattern Boltgun with bespoke rules. This is the correct use of a unique profile, because literally nothing like this existed anywhere else in the Codex.
Chronus: nothing unique or named
Pedro Kantor: "Dorn's Arrow: This ancient and venerated storm bolter has the following profile" - unique storm bolter profile, but ONLY refers to the storm bolter! The power fist is just a power fist, and isn't even called Dorn's Arrow.
Darnath Lysander: "The Fist of Dorn: This is a master-crafted thunder hammer. All hits from the Fist of Dorn are resolved at Strength 10 and add +1 to rolls on the vehicle damage table." - generic weapon, with an extra bit of strength and bonus rule. Still easily just reflected as a generic weapon, but I'll grant that this is more unique.
Kayvaan Shrike: "The Raven's Talons: These are a pair of master-crafted lightning claws. They also bestow the Rending special rule on Shrike's close combat attacks." - again, a generic weapon, with a single special rule. Slightly more unique than a normal weapon, but less so than Lysander's.
Vulkan He'stan: Two weapons! "The Gauntlet of the Forge: This armoured gauntlet can be fired as a heavy flamer." and "The Spear of Vulkan: This is a master-crafted relic blade." Literally two generic weapons. The only unique part is the name, and that Vulkan can have a heavy flamer. Still just represented with generic stats.
Kor'sarro Khan: "Moonfang: This is an ancient power sword and a relic of the White Scars Chapter. Any rolls to wound on which Kor'sarro scores a 6 will cause Instant Death, regardless of the target's Toughness." A generic power sword with a unique Devastating Wounds-esque effect. Again, doesn't need a unique profile, and can be represented with a special rule.

You are so dishonest. Lets cherry pick one edition, and like about the rest? I wonder what some of the themes in 5th were. Perhaps some sort of crack down on characters? And Aren't you the guy claiming Phoenix Lords are different than Chapter Masters and Captains based ONLY on the fluff? But not universally (As in "in universe") famous wargear IN THE FLUFF are just bits?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

Trying to use your personal head cannon to claim that they're not is an impressive level of gymnastics.

I didn't see anything that was personal headcannon. A Chapter Master is fundamentally just a guy with rank A Phoenix Lord is a sort of immortal demon armor that posesses the wearer. There may have been hundreds of thousands of Chapter Masters since the OG foundings. The Phoenix Lords have been the same entities for millenia, reborn time and again. Phoenix Lords are more akin to Primarchs of their respective shrines in terms of "history", and more like Lucius the Eternal in manifestation.

Is that you?

So, out of 10 heroes in the 5th edition codex, one has an entirely unique weapon profile (Telion), two have unique ranged weapon profiles but a generic melee (Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, and Pedro Kantor's Dorn's Arrow, which I *could* count seperately because Dorn's Arrow only refers to the storm bolter, and not the power fist in the 5th ed book), two have a generic weapon normally unavailable to them (Cassius and Vulkan), four have a generic weapon, with a single added special feature (Sicarius, Lysander, Shrike and Khan), and two have has completely generic weapons (Tigurius and Chronus).

Given that the majority of these characters only have generic weapon profiles (with a single added rule on them), this could easily be represented in the same way Enhancements are in current 10th ed (this model's X has +1 Y)

That's not what has been suggested. What was suggested was just making it a literal MC weapon wihout ANY +1 Anything. Have you tried being less dishonest?

You are so dishonest. Lets cherry pick one edition, and like about the rest?

Not everyone who disagrees with you is "dishonest" Breton. You were making the case that GW shouldn't use generic weapon stats to represent certain pieces of wargear. Smudge was pointing out that they've done so in the past meaning that it can be done. (Edit: And I don't recall there being a bunch of complaints about such weapons using generic profiles/rules at the time, which suggests that this was generally considered an acceptable way of doing things.) If you want to make the case that handling such wargear would be less satisfying in some way, you can, but then we'd basically just be discussing whether or not Calgar's particular power fists and stormbolters are so special that they somehow don't fit the fluff or desired gameplay by being generic. Smudge's point here is valid and constructive for the conversation at hand.

And Aren't you the guy claiming Phoenix Lords are different than Chapter Masters and Captains based ONLY on the fluff? But not universally (As in "in universe") famous wargear IN THE FLUFF are just bits?

The case that some people are making about phoenix lords is that representing them with the same stats as a generic exarch might not feel sufficiently lore-accurate because it wouldn't necessarily acknowledge the vast differences in their level of skill or the weird magic stuff they occassionally do including the instant-ressurrection trick they have.

So the concept we're touching on here is a difference in degrees to which a given set of rules matches/doesn't match the lore of the unit/weapon being represented. In other words, some people may feel that phoenix magic and martial skill being represented as equivalent to a generic exarch would fail to reflect the lore of the phoenix lord in a satisfying way on the tabletop. Conversely, some people are saying that Calgar's power fists and storm bolters aren't so dramatically different from a normal pair of fists and storm bolters that they have to be some bespoke weapon profile.

I frequently field Ahriman. He has the Black Staff. It's nifty and all, but ultimately it's basically just a force weapon. They could represent it as a generic force weapon if they wanted to, and it wouldn't somehow undermine Ahriman's representation on the tabletop.

Calgar’s powerfists are less unique (in terms of actual ability) than a Phoenix Lord is.
I don’t think that should be controversial.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Wouldn't having a robust character customization system and then keeping bespoke datasheets for the characters who wouldn't neatly fit into that system be an effective way to "take some of each"? If so, then it sounds like the main thing you and I disagree about is whether or not it makes sense to get rid of some existing bespoke datasheets and let them be handled by the generic character customization system.

That would be how I would do it. Except I wouldn't get rid of any of the bespoke datasheets just because they're bespoke data sheets. They finally got rid of Tycho. And they should have. He died way way way before the first Primaris set foot on anywhere. He should not have been commanding them. Unfortunately they didn't replace him. Well, they did, but with a sort-of generic Blood Angels Captain and Death Company Captain for his two roles/datasheets. Blood Angels currently have no Named Captains of any Company which I think is a mistake. Every faction (technically subfaction but Marines are pretty much the only subfactions left and are treated as their own faction anyway) should have the some number of special characters. They should be the ones you read about in the books, or see in the video games. In other words Titus is far from the only character(s) who should have made the jump. Special Characters should do one of two things (or both) be the gateway characters for people jumping from Black Library or Dawn of War to the tabletop, be there for people already in the tabletop for remaking the black library books or otherwise want to play in GW's sandbox.

Breton wrote:I disagree with the premise that named characters are automatically undercosted.

Cool! Do you think that named characters should ever be intentionally undercosted? Personally, I do not. Asking because I'm still trying to figure out if I was understanding the points you were making in previously posts correctly.

The depends on what you mean by undercosted. I assume you mean costing fewer points than they are worth, instead of costing fewer points than a generic dude. They should cost what they're worth. That doesn't mean you can't (intentionally) make a special character weaker than the generic dude who is then cheaper than the generic dude. They did that with Cassius once and it was kind of cool. They did it accidentally with Belial here. Lets imagine we're remaking the story of Ragnar. Impetuous Headstrong younger fresh promotion. It makes sense he might not have everything a generic captain has and would thus be cheaper. Cheaper isn't undercosted. So it depends on what you mean by undercosted. Well there may be one exception. As we can tell being this late in the edition cycle: GW will and does modify the points costs to influence army creation. Not enough people are playing Belial? Make him cheaper. Too many people are playing Aggressors? Make them expensive. They will modify points costs just to make units more or less common not necessarily based on their cost benefit. I don't have a particular issue with that, but I'm a big fan of variety.

* Honor Guard of Macragge: He gets feel no pain wihle he's attached to a squad of honor guard. Other captains could probably have body guards that are especially good at keeping their bosses from getting sniped out.

Yes, I didn't think you meant the entire unit got FNP, I think you were incorrectly describing the ability as requiring the opponent to chew through 30 or more T6ish wounds of Bodyguard to get rid of the FNP.

Nope. Bolded the word in my quote for emphasis. All I was saying was that it's a rule that lets the guy's protectors protect him from sniper attacks more effectively.

That's what I said. didn't = Did NOT think that.. I DID think you were inaccurately claiming opponents had to kill 18+ Attached Unit wounds (or however many the attached unit had) AND 8 Victrix Guard wounds to get rid of the FNP on Calgar.

I also think you're incorrect for trying to claim this rule was about Calgar. Terminator Calgar does not have this rule. This rule was about the two bodyguards. When they went away because he switched to Terminator Armor, the rule went away.

Sure. In which case, we can throw that rule out. The point I was making was that Calgar doesn't really have any abilities that are especially unique to himself (in terms of lore), so we can toss out that special ability and leave him with even fewer Calgar-specific things that justify him having his own datasheet. That's a point for the argument that Calgar could reasonably be represented with a generic datasheet, yes?

Baharroth has two bespokes that are both more common than Calgar's. Why are you more interested in getting rid of Calgar's datasheet which is far more unique than Baharroths? I mean in terms of lore or in terms of the datasheet his bespoke isn't rare at all. I've already seen you're about to accuse me of being "partisan" and I'm going to show you the things I said that disprove your attempt to poison the well, but for now lets just ask why you want to save a "unique" datasheet - from your faction - that Includes extremely basic abilities like Lift and Re-Drop - while deleting one from the Space Marine faction - that has/had the only example to exist in the game - especially when you can't even spend the time to correctly articulate his rules?

Did you get this so extremely wrong on purpose or in "good faith"?

You're making a lot of personal attacks in this thread, so I thought it might be good to clarify exactly what you're suggesting here. Hypothetically, in this scenario where I'm intentionally going out of my way to get a rule slightly wrong, what's my goal? Are you picturing me crouched over a keyboard plotting out ways to like, ruin your life by suggesting some named character datasheets become generic options instead? Walk me through that scenario, Breton. What kind of villainous antics am I up to?

I asked a question. Like you do when you ask if I'm trolling or in good faith. If you thought it was a personal attack, why did you do it?

Honestly, *most* of the phoenix lord weapons aren't even all that special. Karandras's claw has historically basically just been a power fist. There's a scene in the Jain Zar novel where someone is surprised Jain would be willing to abandon her weapons and she's like,

"Meh. I can just make another one."

Which tells me that Jain's glaive isn't necessarily some super special one of a kind weapon with the heart of a dead god powering. It's probably just an executioner being wielded by someone who's just that good.

(Though obviously bespoke profiles for phoenix lords would give you more flexibility in handling the weapons that don't necessarily have equivalents like Baharroth's blinding blade.)