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I don't subscribe to the emperor being directly affected by worship. The chaos gods aren't real world entities that absorbed warp power. They are warp entities first and foremost.

Even in 40k worshipping a person doesn't power them it just coalesces power in the warp.

Just because you say the name emperor when you pray hard doesn't mean the warp knows where to send it. No one has a true image of the emperor in their mind to find him in the warp anyway.

The reason chaos gods are empowered by worship is because they are emergent properties of emotions in the warp. A person can't directly send worship to khorne, but rage and aggression manifest in the warp and stick to other rage and aggression. That khorne is powered by it is actually beside the point. It would coalesce whether an emergent intelligence appeared or not.

You can't snort drugs 'for khorne'. That excess won't go to him because it doesn't stick.

The emperor isn't an emotion. So the metaphysics of 40k would imply that a warp entity that is an emergent intelligence from say blind faith or authoritarianism might be forming.

The half living emperor could then by retro association actually become basically a daemon Prince of his own warp mirror, given the similarities.

But it wouldn't literally turn him the person into a god, because that's no how warp gods work.

Eh, after the "Greater Good" warp entity incident with that one Tau expansion wave, I think we have to accept that there could be a warp entity of the Worshiped Emperor - though I agree it may not be linked to the Golden Throne Emperor at all.

It's well documented that worship of something has the potential to create a Chaos being that lives off that worship directly.

The concept of a "Chaos God" isn't really a type of chaos entity its simply a really really powerful entity within the warp with a vast following and amount of power.


I recall that at least Khorne and Nurgle were supposed to be birthed from human worship/emotions during history. Slaanesh was birthed by the Eldar and their hedonistic ways.
We have the more recent Greater Good entity.


So the idea that either an existing or new Chaos entity has arisen based off the belief of the Emperor makes perfect sense. What that entity might be and what its goals and intent are is up for debate and impossible to truly know.
We know the Emperor tried to snuff out belief as a concept, most likely because he knew what it would do in the warp.

The big question is if the actual Emperor is connected to the Warp entity or indeed if there's only one. There's potential that there could be two - one the True Emperor and another the twisted form of Emperor that's been created in the minds of people over 10K years.

If that latter idea was true it might explain why the Sisters of Battle gain belief powers whilst many others don't. That they've tapped into belief in one of the entities which is more powerful in warp energies and thus able to feed it back to them in the phyiscal world.

 Overread wrote:
It's well documented that worship of something has the potential to create a Chaos being that lives off that worship directly.

The concept of a "Chaos God" isn't really a type of chaos entity its simply a really really powerful entity within the warp with a vast following and amount of power.


I recall that at least Khorne and Nurgle were supposed to be birthed from human worship/emotions during history. Slaanesh was birthed by the Eldar and their hedonistic ways.
We have the more recent Greater Good entity.


So the idea that either an existing or new Chaos entity has arisen based off the belief of the Emperor makes perfect sense. What that entity might be and what its goals and intent are is up for debate and impossible to truly know.
We know the Emperor tried to snuff out belief as a concept, most likely because he knew what it would do in the warp.

The big question is if the actual Emperor is connected to the Warp entity or indeed if there's only one. There's potential that there could be two - one the True Emperor and another the twisted form of Emperor that's been created in the minds of people over 10K years.

If that latter idea was true it might explain why the Sisters of Battle gain belief powers whilst many others don't. That they've tapped into belief in one of the entities which is more powerful in warp energies and thus able to feed it back to them in the phyiscal world.

In the Dark Imperium novels, the Ulthwe Farseer Illiyanne Natasé has a discussion with Guilliman about what gods might be. Admittedly it is an in-universe discussion so it could be fallible, but one of the theories advanced was whether a being could become a god. The original soul might gather to itself the power from worship, but possibly be changed by this. That could be be what happened to the entity that was the Emperor of 30K. Over thousands of years of worship, the Imperium's faith in the Emperor and the dying souls of the faithful have coalesced into a god that also calls itself the Emperor, except it is the Emperor as imagined by the faithful so it is xenophobic and tyrannical. The original Emperor and this warp Emperor could have willingly or unwilling merged together and now the Emperor has more warp power than ever before even while being physically still nearly dead and shackled to the Golden Throne. The influence of the warp Emperor might also have changed the original Emperor's mind and views. We know Guilliman's experience of communicating with the Emperor was confusing and that the Emperor's mind was very fragmented so that might explain the seemingly illogical or inconsistent actions such as why SoB get miracles at a far higher frequency (enough to be reflected in-game) whereas even faithful Guardsmen and Space Marine Chapters that worship the Emperor as a god don't (outside of rare incidents in novels).

 Hellebore wrote:
Maybe driving humanity through apocalypse after apocalypse until humanity is back to his caveman origins is the intent all along. Not to uplift, but to degenerate back to an Eloi- like existence. One that deprives the chaos gods power by its very simplicity.

Which is basically what the exodites did.

There is some implication that Doombreed is Genghis Khan ascended to Daemonhood, so Chaos was definitely around even in tribal times.

 Overread wrote:
It's well documented that worship of something has the potential to create a Chaos being that lives off that worship directly.

The concept of a "Chaos God" isn't really a type of chaos entity its simply a really really powerful entity within the warp with a vast following and amount of power.


I recall that at least Khorne and Nurgle were supposed to be birthed from human worship/emotions during history. Slaanesh was birthed by the Eldar and their hedonistic ways.
We have the more recent Greater Good entity.

The original fluff from realms of chaos had the modern khorne tzeentch and nurgle awaken during the human mediaeval period.

But again it wasn't due to worshipping them as they didn't exist. It wasn't even due to the worshipping of the concepts that compose them. It was because of the sheer amount of murder, despair and deceit that was occuring at the time.

Similarly slannesh wasn't worshipped into existence, it was emoted into existence. The chaos gods are intelligences that emerge from concentrations of emotions in the warp. If there was no intelligence formed those emotions would still congeal together in the warp.

Khorne is rage given animus through sheer concentration of rage. Its analogous to human consciousness forming when you get a critical mass of neurones interconnecting.

And those that worship khorne only do so through khornate emotions. A khorne worshipper isn't fuelling khorne with deception. So worship as a concept can't do anything, it has no presence in the warp. If it did it would fuel a chaos god of faith, not somehow act as a metaphysical emotion divvying machine.

The worship happens alongside the active ingredient, it isn't itself the active ingredient. If it were then only rage performed in a khornate worshipful manner would fuel khorne, despite it being a fact of 40k that all rage and murder fuels him which is why you can never get rid of chaos. Sentience begets it as a dark mirror.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Maybe driving humanity through apocalypse after apocalypse until humanity is back to his caveman origins is the intent all along. Not to uplift, but to degenerate back to an Eloi- like existence. One that deprives the chaos gods power by its very simplicity.

Which is basically what the exodites did.

There is some implication that Doombreed is Genghis Khan ascended to Daemonhood, so Chaos was definitely around even in tribal times.

His original entry in 2nd Ed said a great human warlord and a lot people would theory hammer he was Hitler, khan, xerxes, or any number of historical warlords.

Ghengis khan was from the 1200s.

The reincarnating shamans all died in 8000 BC, right when civilisation was ramping up in humanity. They chose that date on purpose as it's just before the oldest cities we have from the archaeological record. Lost and the damned said they felt chaos getting more dangerous as humanity moved away from it's hunter gatherer roots. So the original fluff makes it clear that the shamans wanted to prevent civilisation corrupting humanity.

There used to be a chaos god called Malal, now called malice due to copyright reasons.it was chaos turned against choas.

Perhaps when the emperor went to molech Malice saw him as a power agent of order a weapon against the other choas gods and the bound themselves to each other. This granted th emperor Malice’s warp power and Malice the power of the worship of trillions of human souls

mrFickle wrote:
There used to be a chaos god called Malal, now called malice due to copyright reasons.it was chaos turned against choas.

Perhaps when the emperor went to molech Malice saw him as a power agent of order a weapon against the other choas gods and the bound themselves to each other. This granted th emperor Malice’s warp power and Malice the power of the worship of trillions of human souls

That would be dumb.

 RaptorusRex wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
There used to be a chaos god called Malal, now called malice due to copyright reasons.it was chaos turned against choas.

Perhaps when the emperor went to molech Malice saw him as a power agent of order a weapon against the other choas gods and the bound themselves to each other. This granted th emperor Malice’s warp power and Malice the power of the worship of trillions of human souls

That would be dumb.

Why?

mrFickle wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
There used to be a chaos god called Malal, now called malice due to copyright reasons.it was chaos turned against choas.

Perhaps when the emperor went to molech Malice saw him as a power agent of order a weapon against the other choas gods and the bound themselves to each other. This granted th emperor Malice’s warp power and Malice the power of the worship of trillions of human souls

That would be dumb.

Why?

Because Malal/Malice/who gives a cuss was never that important or integral to the setting. Whenever he's referenced, it's a wink and nudge thing.

Because we know the Emperor made a deal with the Four and Malal doesn't exist and cannot exist outside of vague references about Chaos hating everything including itself.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Overread wrote:
It's well documented that worship of something has the potential to create a Chaos being that lives off that worship directly.

The concept of a "Chaos God" isn't really a type of chaos entity its simply a really really powerful entity within the warp with a vast following and amount of power.


I recall that at least Khorne and Nurgle were supposed to be birthed from human worship/emotions during history. Slaanesh was birthed by the Eldar and their hedonistic ways.
We have the more recent Greater Good entity.

The original fluff from realms of chaos had the modern khorne tzeentch and nurgle awaken during the human mediaeval period.

But again it wasn't due to worshipping them as they didn't exist. It wasn't even due to the worshipping of the concepts that compose them. It was because of the sheer amount of murder, despair and deceit that was occuring at the time.

Similarly slannesh wasn't worshipped into existence, it was emoted into existence. The chaos gods are intelligences that emerge from concentrations of emotions in the warp. If there was no intelligence formed those emotions would still congeal together in the warp.

Khorne is rage given animus through sheer concentration of rage. Its analogous to human consciousness forming when you get a critical mass of neurones interconnecting.

And those that worship khorne only do so through khornate emotions. A khorne worshipper isn't fuelling khorne with deception. So worship as a concept can't do anything, it has no presence in the warp. If it did it would fuel a chaos god of faith, not somehow act as a metaphysical emotion divvying machine.

The worship happens alongside the active ingredient, it isn't itself the active ingredient. If it were then only rage performed in a khornate worshipful manner would fuel khorne, despite it being a fact of 40k that all rage and murder fuels him which is why you can never get rid of chaos. Sentience begets it as a dark mirror.

The original RoC describes how some cults can engage in suicide pacts and their souls would coalesce into the warp as a very minor entity. This shows that focused belief and worship can affect how the worshippers' souls behave after death, and shape what forms in the warp. That would also explain why for example the belief in the Greater Good by Tau auxiliaries can form the Greater God warp god, in line with their beliefs. This is as opposed to unfocused emotion and souls just coalescing without clear defined beliefs in which case you get whatever the warp gives you in the end.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

We’re told they’d masquerade as different historical figures, nudging mankind’s development along, using its skills and abilities of precognition to do so.

So….why didn’t he take control much longer?

It is strongly hinted that the Emperor was Alexander the Great (which is stupid), and also that humanity has had lots of other empires before the Imperium. Who's to say that the Imperium of 30k/40k is not just the last in a long series of empires built by the Emperor, which all collapse because he is a powerful but incompetent tool? Maybe the Dark Age of Technology ended in a way not too dissimilar from how 40k is fated to end, and with the same fool at its head? Maybe this has happened many times, and the Long Night just obscures all the previous incidents? Last time, it fell due to a machine rebellion, and this time due to Chaos interference. Every Imperium of his falls to some oversight, but eventually he'll have made all the mistakes one can possible make, and it'll finally last.

Hell, make the Emperor all the big historical conquerors - Alexander, Julius Caesar, the Yellow Emperor, Ghenghis Khan, etc., and say that the "official" histories are just coverups of the Emperor's fundamental incompetence as a leader.

(Yes, I do think the habit of making the Emperor retroactively important is detrimental to the setting - it lessens the tragedy if he was always there and planning it all along, rather than being a single big mistake arising from the natural tendencies of humanity.)

I hate all that "oh actually everything that ever happened in history is secretly because of our cool character" trope. It's in Mage the Awakening and it's the worst thing about that game.

It's the worst part of the Heresy novels when Oll Person has been in every single conflict in history, just dumps me right out of the story every time. And as you say, it make the Emperor seem laughably incompetent if this immortal, regenerating, psychic genius can't get things done in the tens of thousands of years he's been around, everything is still kind of a bodge job.

That's why I prefer the "Emperor wasn't around until the DAOT but he thinks he's been there for ages" take because it makes everything a bit less silly, and leaves our history the hell alone.

Iracundus wrote:
The original RoC describes how some cults can engage in suicide pacts and their souls would coalesce into the warp as a very minor entity. This shows that focused belief and worship can affect how the worshippers' souls behave after death, and shape what forms in the warp. That would also explain why for example the belief in the Greater Good by Tau auxiliaries can form the Greater God warp god, in line with their beliefs. This is as opposed to unfocused emotion and souls just coalescing without clear defined beliefs in which case you get whatever the warp gives you in the end.

I don't see how that applies to worship though. Them all acting in a way they think is holy emoting in a concerted manner, would bind their energy together when they die because like emotions stick together in there. But they aren't worshipping anything because nothing exists to worship. The best you can say is they idolizing a concept not an animus. If their intent is to make a warp god for greed with their deaths they intrinsically know there isn't one yet, because they haven't made it. So they invest in being greedy.

This is where I think worship is correlation causation error. It happens alongside the emotions that actually feed the God, but it itself is not anything other than a focus for the mind to act in ways that feed the entity they worship. Unless a khorne follower can empower khorne through worshipful pacifism it doesn't have an affect. And obviously violence feeds khorne where you're worshipping it or not. So if there is any power behind worship it's the weakest metaphysical force in the warp.

The tau entity is simply the emotions of the auxillia made manifest. A god of selflessness, altruism. Causing billions of entities to train their emote altruism, empathy sympathy would all feed into the warp god. Worship is just the real space cultural construct that aids in directing the emotional state they need to be in to feed that entity.

Da Boss wrote:I hate all that "oh actually everything that ever happened in history is secretly because of our cool character" trope. It's in Mage the Awakening and it's the worst thing about that game.

It's the worst part of the Heresy novels when Oll Person has been in every single conflict in history, just dumps me right out of the story every time. And as you say, it make the Emperor seem laughably incompetent if this immortal, regenerating, psychic genius can't get things done in the tens of thousands of years he's been around, everything is still kind of a bodge job.

That's why I prefer the "Emperor wasn't around until the DAOT but he thinks he's been there for ages" take because it makes everything a bit less silly, and leaves our history the hell alone.

While I agree with the first bit, there are many ways to parse the second. Instead of his age as the limiting variable, it could be his power, intelligence or a number of other things. Ie he isn't a genius but is 40000 years old. Which makes him a man cursed with a self inflicted sysaphean task to save the species, but with limited ability to do so.

Or the fact that the shamans that made him had very different views on how life should be lived to be in harmony with nature, at odds with the industrialised ratrace. So he's fighting human nature itself to bring people back to being one with nature as his creators intended.

We can also look at the fact that, up to the Age of Strife? Mankind had been doing perfectly well thank you. Growing its knowledge, science and maturity pretty organically, at its own pace. Master of its own destiny throughout.

Sure, we’re told, as covered earlier, the entity that would become The Emperor, gave helpful nudges and nip/tucks when it thought it necessary.

But that’s not the same thing “I am leader, all bow and follow my lead”. There evidently was no need for that.

The Age of Strife was the culmination of at least two issues. Mankind’s AI Servants rebelling, and the downsides of man starting to grow into a psychic species.

The AI Rebellion could’ve been the work of an instant (a single, rogue unit transmitting its, for want of a better word, manifesto across the galactic equivalent of the internet), or it could’ve been a long time coming, conducted in secret Ala GSC* until sufficient Men of Iron were onside.

The emergence of Psykers isn’t something you can really control as such. Not even The Imperium’s extreme measures work 100% of the time. And, unlike pre-Age of Strife man? The Imperium knows what Psykers and the associated risks are.

But regardless. With seemingly no central government or overlord? No one person, however powerful, could do a damned thing about either except fight.

That brings us to The Great Crusade. Just about…..but there’s one more event.

The Warp turmoil caused by the Eldar in the run up to Slaanesh’s birth.

Now, that by no means helped anyone. But, with any and all warp travel now incredibly risky, even for Orks? It may have done mankind a favour of sorts.

See, just as mankind was going through its undoubtedly darkest hour? The warp storms meant no galactic power could really press that advantage. Yes, untold worlds and communities were annnihilated, and even into the Great Crusade suffered Xenos raids. But so far as we can make out? Those were localised affairs.

If your world was lucky enough not to have a nearby Ork stronghold, or managed to retain its technological base and all the perks that brought? You were able to ride it out,

But, and this feeds into The Emperor’s plan of Unifiying Terra and launching the Great Crusade being on a strict time limit. Because as soon as Slaanesh’s birth blew out the warp storms? Everyone regained safer and more reliable warp travel.

This is why it was only after Ullanor, when the Orks - the only major galactic power still standing other than mankind - had been broadly contained, did The Emperor take his step back to begin the next part of his plan (Take over and learn how to extend the Webway).

And for that? Mankind needed that central figurehead. That was the only time in our history we arguably needed a Master of Mankind,

Without that singular driving force, reuniting the Sol System? The remaining worlds would’ve been easily picked off one by one by one.

I could even make some argument that having an understanding of the Orky view on existence? By ensuring he had the biggest army with the toughest lads offering the most flightiest fight you ever did fight, The Emperor’s plan was banking on his forces being a lodestone to start drawing in Orky forces, thus sparing far flung holdouts of humanity.

Huh. The last point is a really fun idea. I've always hated that the Primarchs are so physically big, and that the Emperor's projection is also massive. Just silly to me - I never imagined it that way when reading the old background and was surprised by it when it became part of the background in the early 2000s.

But if you see it as the Emperor playing into Ork psychology (and Orks were definitely the most widespread problematic Xenos species at the time of the Crusade) to try and draw them all in for a massive fight, it's quite funny and I don't hate it as much.

My major issue with that is that I think he'd have been flattened if that'd worked as well as it would have needed to - they'd just have been swamped in Orks to a ridiculous degree.

I don't think there was a risk of that. I very much doubt the Orks were ever more than a nuisance to his plans, a problem to be solved, but even if they had been more central, the Great Crusade proved itself eminently capable of dealing with them.

Remember that part of why the Heresy happens is that there is room for it to happen. The xenos by that point are mostly dealt with. The Orks in particular have had their backs broken over and over and were so crushed that Tempest implies that the Ork threat used as a pretext for the Calth Conjunction was almost completely manufactured. Certainly Guilliman was perfectly aware that the force assembled was comically outsized for the supposed threat, and only played ball because he thought it was political theatre and he believed Horus needed the prestige. The Orks were so absolutely shattered that they wouldn't seriously threaten the Imperium again for over a thousand years which is telling when you consider how fast they can spring up!

It really is amazing how much the Heresy snatched defeat from the jaws of the Great Crusade's victory. Did you know that the Imperium planned to have Terminator armour completely replace power armour, as the most advanced models like Tartaros had no real downsides? Those plans didn't happen because the Heresy stopped them. But it's telling how much the Crusade was really just a formality by that point.

Orks are an omnipresent threat. As we know, and presumably mankind knew before too long? Once you’ve got Orks? You’ve pretty much got Orks forever.

You can entirely rid a planet, but it’s the work of generations. And you have to be pro-actively hunting them down all the time.

The same could be done on the galactic scale. You just need sufficient forces to shutdown any nascent Waaagh! before it gets going. Or, let it grow to a certain manageable size, letting it draw in other lingering forces, before confronting them with overwhelming force.

If you can do that? You can manage them. And potentially in such a manner that none survive to get ‘Arder and more Kunnin’ from the defeat/

That was the promise of Ullanor as I see it. The back of the Orky threat broken, potentially forever. Had the Heresy not occurred? It seems entirely possible the Imperium would be of such strength and number. Heck, even having the Primarchs as a “Come And Get A Really Good Fight Over Here, You Viridian Sizable Lady’s Chemise” lodestone.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m also entirely persuaded along the same lines that the Eldar did much the same before, either directly or through the oft hinted at artificial defenders of their former realm.

Break the back once, manage the number, and reduce the menace to a constant nuisance. And for the ancient Eldar? Don’t wipe them out because watching the misery Orks inflict on others is just too fun.

If we combine a few Eldar technologies together we can see potential means by which they kept the Orks at a manageable level.

They use psychic engines which draw warp energy to power things. This is as close to a perpetual motion machine as you can get. They will always be able to draw power. Psychoplastics can be grown and healed by the application of warp energy. Combine those two in one machine and you've got an endlessly powered, endlessly repairing weapon.


Add to this the void weaver, super heavy built from the ancient Terra forming technology that consists of monofilament and wrairhbone parasites to chop up and break down everything organic, you have a plausible way to de contaminate a planet of Ork spores - a perpetually running and repairing planet scourer.

Their robot armies built with similar technologies means they could provide an Ork population with an endless opponent that keeps them at just the right level of containment, killing the biggest off and sniping the oddboys so they are perpetually stuck in a feral state.


And there you have a plausible Ork control measure that would work for as long as that empire functioned..the birth of slannesh blew up all the psychic engines like a galactic EMP, as they drew their power from the increasingly unstable warp, bursting the Ork dam and letting them flood the galaxy again.

Yup, I’d agree with that. And we can reasonably infer from Commoragh’s ongoing nightlife that they didn’t wipe out the Orks for selfish, entertainment purposes.

I think we could even argue there’s a level of Orky Organisation that’s No Threat to the then Eldar civilisation, but still plenty to keep other races in their relative foxholes. If you can keep it at or around that level? You have a second layer of personal defences, after a fashion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can also consider the Waaagh! in a wider context. It’s not just a holy war equivalent, but a mass migration. The Orks gathering their forces then heading out to wherever they currently aren’t. Not just for a really big fight, but for all the resources.

We know Ork civilisation has generalised stages of development, reflected by the staggered appearance of Oddboyz. I shan’t go into that in great detail here.

The Waaagh! is essentially another implication of that. A societal stress reaction to attack (everyone, duff ‘em up dem gits!) and/or to resource scarcity. Something that spread among the normally fractious and anarchic tribes to get them all pulling (and punching and kicking and fighting and screaming and stomping and gouging) in more or less the same direction until the threat is neutralised, you’ve acquired sufficient new resources for abundance or, I suppose, you’ve met the resource issue in the middle and enough of you got perished that scarcity is alleviated.

 Hellebore wrote:

I don't see how that applies to worship though. Them all acting in a way they think is holy emoting in a concerted manner, would bind their energy together when they die because like emotions stick together in there. But they aren't worshipping anything because nothing exists to worship. The best you can say is they idolizing a concept not an animus. If their intent is to make a warp god for greed with their deaths they intrinsically know there isn't one yet, because they haven't made it. So they invest in being greedy.

This is where I think worship is correlation causation error. It happens alongside the emotions that actually feed the God, but it itself is not anything other than a focus for the mind to act in ways that feed the entity they worship. Unless a khorne follower can empower khorne through worshipful pacifism it doesn't have an affect. And obviously violence feeds khorne where you're worshipping it or not. So if there is any power behind worship it's the weakest metaphysical force in the warp.

The tau entity is simply the emotions of the auxillia made manifest. A god of selflessness, altruism. Causing billions of entities to train their emote altruism, empathy sympathy would all feed into the warp god. Worship is just the real space cultural construct that aids in directing the emotional state they need to be in to feed that entity.

The beliefs of the Tau auxilia shaped how the Greater Good god looked. There is no reason a philosophy of collectivism and altruism has to look like a Tau but the beliefs of the Tau auxilia result in a five fingered Tau (probably from the influence of all the humans under Tau rule).

The following is my attempt at integrating everything into how the warp works and is admittedly my headcanon but I think it is internally consistent:

Warp gods are conglomerations of warp/psychic energy and souls are also made of this energy. They can be formed unconsciously through like attracting like until they reach critical mass to be born. However the example of the suicide pact entities from the original RoC and the Greater Good god show that it is also possible to create warp gods/entities through active means.

There is the willing or unwilling sacrifice of souls towards a god. The sacrifice sends the energy of these souls directly to the target god instead of just pouring that energy into the warp (like pouring a cup of water into the ocean), where anyone can attempt to scavenge it. The psychic energy of these souls either join the god, strengthening them in the process, or can be used to do things, which is why daemons treat souls like fuel and currency.

Worship however directs psychic energy towards a god too and is like a willing sacrifice of an infinitesimal amount of the soul, with more devoted acts sacrificing more. It is why gods value the acts of their champions rather than that of a lowly cultist. Species that are more psychically powerful are worth more, so the worship of an Eldar (whose souls shine brightly in the warp) is worth more than that of a scrawny human scribe deep in a hive. However, the tiny motes of worship multipled by quadrillions of humans over 10 thousand years adds up. That is why the Eldar gods weakened pre-Fall as active worship of them and their traditional values waned. The Ork gods are powerful because they are a reflection of all the Ork souls that join them and also the Orks' unwavering belief in essentially Orkiness, and that belief shapes their gods into Gork and Mork, who are basically giant Orks and a reflection of the Ork psyche. That is why the Ork gods, while being powerful and nearly invulnerable to harm, are also not dominating and ruling the warp. Just as Orks love fighting, including against each other, so do their gods and it is in their gods' nature to fight each other as much as it is to fight others.

The beliefs and worship of the mortals shapes the entity that forms (or which feeds from them). That is why the beliefs of the Tau auxilia created a Tau looking god, and why the Eldar pantheon seem to all basically be Eldar in form. Unfortunately, humanity seems largely too weak psychically and too unaware to consciously create warp gods, while the Eldar descended too far into decadence to care. In the absence of conscious active shaping, the warp forms something original out of the conglomeration of souls and psychic energy, resulting in forms like Tzeentch which are not of any specific organized relgion.

The worship of the Imperium may have created an Emperor warp god that merges with the Emperor of 30K, and changes him to fit more in line with the beliefs of his subjects. That is one of the theories advanced by the Eldar Farseer in discussion with Guilliman. Maybe the 30K Emperor didn't want religion, but after thousands of years of worship, maybe the Emperor of 40K now wants worship because he gains strength from it, and perhaps the views of the Emperor warp god have influenced and changed the views of the original Emperor.

Within such a paradigm, psykers are souls that are able to channel energy from the warp and this energy can do work in realspace, like any other form of energy. Supernatural effects and miracles are warp driven effects that are channeled by the god, so pushed from the warp side rather than a mortal manipulating warp energy from realspace side. That is why for example in the original story of the Fall of Cadia, the activation of the Necron pylons dimmed Celestine's light while also weakening daemons, since Celestine is basically a daemon of the Emperor.

 Hellebore wrote:

Or the fact that the shamans that made him had very different views on how life should be lived to be in harmony with nature, at odds with the industrialised ratrace. So he's fighting human nature itself to bring people back to being one with nature as his creators intended.

I don't think a neolithic man (or gestalt) would have any particular appreciation for "harmony with nature", as nature at that point meant starvation, child mortality, and dying of infections. And of course a total disregard for the environmental impact of human activity, as no human activity at the time had major impact on nature (at least not on a scale that an individual could perceive).

While I prefer the theory of the Emperor as a bioweapon or warlord left over from the DAoT (simply the one who "won"), the neolithic origin is pretty clearly the official one ever since the very earliest references. And it can also work to explain some of his eccentricities, and doesn't require the stupidest parts of his background (being Alexander the Great).

Specifically, what if the Emperor still basically thinks like a neolithic farmer? The way you survive is to be deeply distrustful of anyone outside your tribe due to prevalent low-level violence, nature is as much an enemy as an ally, uncertainty is very risky, and you display power through displays of bulky material wealth (actually this one might be too premature for a true neolithic farmer). He even uses religion to maintain control. While he perhaps intellectually knows that religion is fraud (or dangerous) and that englightened secularism is the way forward, his instincts still lead him towards the exact same basically religious mechanisms that he grew up with. (If you want to promote athetism, maybe don't walk around like a golden demigod with a bloody halo of all things.)

The Emperor just expands the notion of "tribe" to all of humanity, and instead of burning down forests to make cropland (again, not sure if that actually happened in neolithic Anatolia), he burns the galaxy much more than Horus ever did. While the Emperor is clearly stated as trying to make ecological repairs to Terra, it's not clear to me that this is due to any particular affection for nature, as much as because he thinks it is useful. He razes the Himalayas to build his home, which I think should put to rest any idea that the Emperor cares about "harmony with nature".

(None of this analysis requires any assumptions on Ork behaviour.)

On the xenocidal nature of The Emperor?

Look at modern day Britain. Not too close, it’s not that pretty a picture. But during the warmer months? I can go for a walk in a wood or a forest or a heath with zero fear of being attacked by a carnivorous animal. Because we drove the big things to absolute local extinction ages ago.

We don’t need to pack bear spray or a firearm to dissuade hungry fauna, because there’s nothing left to offer that threat.

We’re also completely rabies free, so if the smaller critters do decide to come and have a nibble? I shouldn’t get a particularly nasty disease (would still seek medical aid of course. Low risk doesn’t mean you get complacent).

That seems to be the thinking behind the Great Crusade’s Xenocidal rampage. Remove all threats. Leave mankind dominant, unassailed and unassailable.

I am not defending it necessarily. But looked at on the long term scale? It’s a means to an end. A morally indefensible act for a technically morally defensible outcome.

From there? Man has the galaxy. All of it. And with a central leader, proper mutually beneficial trade networks could ensure an abundance for all.

So you guys all agree that the Eldar and presumably the Golden Age humans could easily have wiped out the Orks?

And the Eldar didn't because they were amusing, and the Golden Age humans didn't for some other reason?

Poor form! I think the Orks were just too difficult to eradicate, too canny when it gets down to it and far too successful a weapon. I'm sure they could win battles against the Orks but they were spread too thin, and the Orks were always growing out there in the far reaches of space, terraforming otherwise totally barren planets into Ork worlds just by existing.

Orks need far less tech to survive on barren worlds than Eldar or humans do, being essentially a kind of lichen (algae symbiotically paired with fungus) means they can live on bare rock with no real useable atmosphere and slowly through leeching nutrients from the rock and photosynthesis they can re-organise the atmosphere into something that supports more complex Ork life. The baseline need for food for Orks would be a lot lower due to their photosynthetic nature and so their barren worlds could house deceptively large populations of Orks.

The Galaxy is massive and the human and eldar empires would be necessity have to leave a lot of those barren, useless systems uncolonised and focus on the nicer, more amenable systems. That's ceding a huge amount of ground to the Orks and it's just not going to be feasible to visit all of these places and eradicate them before they get too dangerous!

I don't think any of the great Empires could fully deal with Orks, just keep their numbers down inside their borders.

Eradicate? Not necessarily. The Galaxy is a big place. Huge. Mind bogglingly so.

Even with Warp Travel, you can’t simply go wherever you want, whenever you want. So a systemic extermination across the galaxy seems…well I never like to say impossible, so will settle for Incredibly Bloody Unlikely.

Then add in the Ork approach to Warp Travel. Which is basically….build a big ship, or hitch a ride on Space Hulk. Press the big red GO button. See what happens.

Which pushes such an extermination into the even further Incredibly Bloody Unlikely. Because you just cannot fully predict where they’ll turn up.

Manage? Yes. Oh yes you can manage them. All you “need” to do is having sufficient forces of sufficient mobility that when a Waaagh! is gathering, or perhaps just appears in your system? You can kick the snot out of it.

You’ll still suffer losses, of course you will. But hardly anything compared to not being prepared.

We kind of see that with the modern Imperium. What it lacks in responsiveness, it has in spades for “well, feed more troops in”. Great for the Orks, because that fight never ends. And in a way? Being able to stalemate Orks is something of a second, maybe third place. It keeps them in position and drawing in more and more, because that’s clearly a Really Good Fight.

It just needs to work more on the “and now they’re gathered, proper overwhelming hammer blow to shatter them, and who knows how many would be Next Big Warbosses.

So the Orks are the least dangerous major species in 40K?

We've really been done dirty.

Who said that? We’re not talking about 40K. We’re talking ages past, and how a sufficiently numerous civilisation with near infinite military resources when needed might tackle Orks. I mean it’s not the thread’s original topic, but here we are.

Far and away? Orks are the single most successful species the Galaxy has ever known. They outlasted the Old Ones, the C’Tan, the Necron, the Eldar, who knows how many others. They outlasted the golden age of mankind.

They’re persistent, but they are predictable. For the most part. Until they aren’t. And it’s that last bit that’s the main pain for everyone else, because you never know when they’ll stop just gleefully running into your traps because it is after all still a Really Good Fight, and instead turn the trap against you in a way previously not thought possible.

Think of it like Command and Conquer. The key to managing the Orky population is their Tech Tree. If you can arrest that? They’re not too tricky. But arresting it on a huge scale is the problem.

Let’s consider it on a single planet scale. Perhaps we’ll choose Angelus.

There? The Orks were planet bound, trying to get enough gubbins and worky bits and scrap to build a new ship. At that point? Angelus’ Orks weren’t a threat to The Imperium. And it seems possible to have even an escort frigate in orbit, periodically bombarding the build site. Until such time as the Orks on the planetside build orbital defence weapons (and they absolutely could for avoidance of all doubt)? That tactic would keep them where they are.

Or indeed until an Orky fleet of any description does what they do best, and just sort of turn up unannounced in case there’s any interesting fights on offer.

But the point is because of how their society is structured? It is possible to arrest a given Ork world’s development.

Other species might put out a distress call. I’m not convinced Orks would care to do that.


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Compare to Humanity. Dead Emperor is BIG trouble. So many factions would result.

And unlike Orks? You can’t necessarily just clobber the biggest and loudest of your rivals to assert dominance and have it gleefully respected.

Because most Orks? They just want a Boss that’s ded ‘ard and leads them to the best fights.

Orks are basically a galactic fungal infection. Once a planet is infested with spores, its basically impossible to get rid of them short of annihilating the environment with fire and starting over. Even massively technologically advanced civilizations would struggle to eradicate that sort of problem.

It is simply easier to maintain an active military and periodically cull the ork population before they form proper Waaaghs and I expect that was the standard procedure with all civilizations that existed during the DAoT. They are nuisance that you manage, because they CAN become a huge problem if they get left alone. Billions will die and you will lose many planets if a Waaaagh forms, but if you follow procedure you can manage the orks. They might even be useful if turned against your rivals.

 Da Boss wrote:
So the Orks are the least dangerous major species in 40K?

We've really been done dirty.

Definitely not the least dangerous. That definitely goes to the T'au. But they are the most manageable. Orks are utterly chaotic, but in a predictable way. You can manipulate and control the chaos they cause, which means you can keep populations of orks below where they become an actual problem OR you can control their actions with external pressures to control them on a larger scale.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Other species might put out a distress call. I’m not convinced Orks would care to do that.

Definitely not. If a population of orks is being managed on an Imperial world with periodic culls the orks are probably perfectly happy with the situation. They get into constant fights and are just happy with how things are. They don't know they're missing bigger fights out there and their ignorence is bliss.

You could probably Gaslight a population of orks into being willing live-fire training dummies for the Imperial Guard.

They may do it on an instinctual level (Weirdboyz) if they can’t actually get to grips. Hence the Angelus example.

Not Angelus specifically, but its status as an Ork held world that’s not too deep into its technological evolution. Park a ship or two in orbit, periodic bombardment of the main settlement. Not so much to wipe out the Orks, just to undo their hard work rebuilding GorkaMorka.

There, unless the Orks can build a surface to orbit defence of sufficient oomph to take out the ships keeping them in check? They’re contained. Which isn’t much fun for the Orks.

In such a situation? Weirboyz might, however subsconsciously, throw out a beacon or call for aid. Something to draw spacefaring Orks to the planet.