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I know that depending on the edition, sometimes space marine squads could only be either 5 man or 10 man, but they could also be between 5-10, like choosing 6, or 8, etc.

I'm just wondering what the game might look like if space marine squads were limited to being 5 man only, make them feel like smaller elite squads, the framework of the discussion that I am going to bring up will be limited based on my familiarity with 3-6th ed, so I dunno what newer editions are like for this kind of thing.

The way I see it is: tac squads would be 5 man, and get to take 2 weapon options either heavy or special weapons. dev squads being 5 man still get to choose 4 heavy weapon. assault squads being 5 man still get their plasma pistols but they gain some options for like.. power weapons or power fists or flamers like special assault squads (black template, blood angels, etc)

Razorbacks become 1 squad transports, but rhinos drop pods and land raiders can transport 2 squads, while drop pods and land raiders can transport 1 dreadnought.

Without extra marines to pad out the squads, each squad becomes a little more important to use well, and maybe transports or deep strike become more important to use to redploy your force as needed.

Well…that’s was 3rd to a Min-Maxxer. 5 man Las/Plas, maybe a Vet Sarge for some HTH clout.

All it did was maximise the firepower of your 2 Troop Compulsory, whilst leaving as many points as possible for support units. So history has kind of already answered your question.

I do however agree that Assault Squads should have more access to toys. The Chainsword may be a signature weapon, but it’s not like Power Weapons are a rare technology. Indeed they’re pretty damned common place, and nicely scalable right up to Titan sized. Could probably make a starship ram using the same technology to be honest. If you had the sanctioned STC, natch.

While I favored 10 man squads, I was a minority. Most people in the 3-7th era took 5 man squads as the norm. Putting a formal cap on it would not meaningfully change the game. Letting a 5 man squad take the full 10 mans worth of gear might make them feel elite, but not solve the issue that in the late middlehammer era, a 3+ armor save was not worth a whole lot, and marines in the open died like guardsmen.

The extra bodies made the unit more survivable, at the cost of efficiency. Particularly with Dev squads, where once you started taking hits the squad lost performance fast at 5 men. So the bolter huggers in the back didn’t do much, but let the big guns fire longer under fire by soaking wounds.

The lack of split fire was an issue as well. You could get a lot done with massed bolter fire, but if you were using that, the special/heavy might be wasted. And vice versus. You could gear for specialization or flex. Both had valid points. But if you wanted to get the most out of bolters, you needed the mass of 10 man squads. In 5 man squads the special/heavy weapons were the relevant aspect of the squad, and the bolters were just a tax you paid for the guns you wanted. Which to be fair, worked for a large number of people.

Capping squads at 5 would also mess with the ability to stash an extra guy in a spare seat of transports, and also the breakpoint for when things triggered at percent casualties in some editions.

They’re also an odd relic of 2nd Ed.

Then, your Taccies just came in 10 Man Squads (Codex Ultramarines), and could split into Combat Squads, allowing you to spread your resources out some.

Whether you did Combat Squad or not, you could split fire. So your Heavy Weapon was rarely wasted on less than ideal targets.

Furthermore, in 2nd Ed it was damned rare to see squads bigger than 10 models. And most infantry weapons were single shot per turn (Shuriken Catapults were a notable and bloody nasty exception). So whether Combat or Full Squad, you weren’t exactly outnumbered by a given target.

Finally? Rapid Fire was something unique to Astartes. Provided the squad was stationary (stationery? Correct use is something my brains steadfastly refuses to learn), it could fire its Bolters twice. So again, even a bare bones combat squad could kick out solid firepower.

Come 3rd Ed? You kept Combat Squads, but everything else there changed. Lots of Rapid Fire. Lots of units well in excess of 10 strong. No more splitting your fire.

 Nevelon wrote:
While I favored 10 man squads, I was a minority. Most people in the 3-7th era took 5 man squads as the norm. Putting a formal cap on it would not meaningfully change the game. Letting a 5 man squad take the full 10 mans worth of gear might make them feel elite, but not solve the issue that in the late middlehammer era, a 3+ armor save was not worth a whole lot, and marines in the open died like guardsmen.

The extra bodies made the unit more survivable, at the cost of efficiency. Particularly with Dev squads, where once you started taking hits the squad lost performance fast at 5 men. So the bolter huggers in the back didn’t do much, but let the big guns fire longer under fire by soaking wounds.

The lack of split fire was an issue as well. You could get a lot done with massed bolter fire, but if you were using that, the special/heavy might be wasted. And vice versus. You could gear for specialization or flex. Both had valid points. But if you wanted to get the most out of bolters, you needed the mass of 10 man squads. In 5 man squads the special/heavy weapons were the relevant aspect of the squad, and the bolters were just a tax you paid for the guns you wanted. Which to be fair, worked for a large number of people.

Capping squads at 5 would also mess with the ability to stash an extra guy in a spare seat of transports, and also the breakpoint for when things triggered at percent casualties in some editions.

I would probably make the command squad be something like... Lieutenant, Champion, Apothecary, Techmarine, and Banner Bearer, and you can break those characters off to other squads, and that's how you could get the 6 man teams, in addition to your other HQ like Librarian, Chaplain, Force Commander, etc.

BanjoJohn wrote:
I know that depending on the edition, sometimes space marine squads could only be either 5 man or 10 man, but they could also be between 5-10, like choosing 6, or 8, etc.

Fixed unit sizes like the former are an invention of 10th edition, I am pretty sure. It was done to discourage kitbashing and increase character sales (can't convert an Intercessor to a Captain if the remaining 9 are no longer a legal unit) and/or simply a move from GW to make things easier for themselves in balancing, so they can achieve prettier winrates.

Or maybe whoever came up with Power Level was offended that the system was rightly mocked and wholly rejected even by the newest players, and decided to make everyone have to play with it no matter what.

Who knows. In either case, if there was an edition with fixed unit sizes like that before 10th, it must have been some RT/2nd edition weirdness before I started (like what Mad Doc Grotsnik is talking about).

As for if you limited it to 5, Nevelon is on the money. Everyone took 5 anyway so forcing 5 would do nothing. In fact as I recall I didn't see much in the way of tacticals at all, 5 or 10. People just took Scouts to pad troops slots and sit on objectives since they were cheaper and not likely to die to much that wouldn't have killed the tacticals as well.

Chaos marines could take squads of 20 at one point. Banner of Khorne or Slaanesh made for a mean melee brick.

I wouldn't like it personally, because more options are always better than fewer options.

When you have many options, you can choose not to take the options you don't like. This is why the "eliminate trap choices" people have always confused me. Eliminate them yourself by not picking them. Problem solved.

For me, the best was when the squads could be anywhere from 5-10, with individual model costs to facilitate the seven model unit. I like that the best BECAUSE it's the most choice. Truth be told, I'm personally going to go 10 man until I run out of points, but I still prefer to have the choice 5,6,7,8, or 9 because that's the most options.

Why would you want to limit/force Marines into squad configurations which were considered problematic even at the time?

 Ashiraya wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I know that depending on the edition, sometimes space marine squads could only be either 5 man or 10 man, but they could also be between 5-10, like choosing 6, or 8, etc.

Fixed unit sizes like the former are an invention of 10th edition, I am pretty sure. It was done to discourage kitbashing and increase character sales (can't convert an Intercessor to a Captain if the remaining 9 are no longer a legal unit) and/or simply a move from GW to make things easier for themselves in balancing, so they can achieve prettier winrates.

Or maybe whoever came up with Power Level was offended that the system was rightly mocked and wholly rejected even by the newest players, and decided to make everyone have to play with it no matter what.

Who knows. In either case, if there was an edition with fixed unit sizes like that before 10th, it must have been some RT/2nd edition weirdness before I started (like what Mad Doc Grotsnik is talking about).

As for if you limited it to 5, Nevelon is on the money. Everyone took 5 anyway so forcing 5 would do nothing. In fact as I recall I didn't see much in the way of tacticals at all, 5 or 10. People just took Scouts to pad troops slots and sit on objectives since they were cheaper and not likely to die to much that wouldn't have killed the tacticals as well.

2nd edition, tactical squads could only be 10 man, or 5 man. Terminator squads could only be 5 man. Other squads had limits like that too