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As far as I can ascertain, older edition Chaos Havoc squads could include special weapons as well as heavy weaponry but loyalist devastator squads cannot do the same. Has a in-unverse reason ever been given for this?

And second question, were a loyalist Chapter to decide to allow their devastators to run around with special weaponry (ie, 4 flamers, for example), would they get reprimanded? or would that sort of eccentricity be so down the list of concerns that no one would give a damn.

It’s the Codex, which is more a set of recommended guidelines for how to get the most out of a relatively small force.

The role of Devastators is (well, was. They were effing deadly once upon a time!) pinpoint overwhelming fire support, so the other infantry can advance the mission with minimal resistance.

Smaller weapons can do the same, but have a lesser effective range. So if your entire point is to blat something big and nasty as quickly as possible, and ideally before it blats your dudes? You want range, a good vantage points, and hefty man portable firepower.

There would likely be some situations where a heavy weapon is less desirable. For instance, boarding actions where its less likely the entire squad will be able to shoot at the same time, and their bulk can further reduce line of sight. There, perhaps some Chapters would repurpose their Devastators to carry smaller weapons.

The codex be more what ye'd call... guidelines than actual rules.

Devastators are there to provide long range support and firepower (although that can get fuzzy on the "long" part with things like multi-meltas). Special weapons are more there to provide tactical flexibility, allowing a squad to engage targets of opportunity or cover them for situations where their basic equipment isn't ideal - like using a plasma gun to provide anti-heavy armour capability, meltas to engage tanks or flamers for clearing out hordes. They were deployed en masse in dedicated squads up to the Heresy but the Codex redefined their role and such, how they're deployed.

As for codex compliance, the Codex was never designed to be strictly adhered to, and only became that way over time. Almost every chapter will deviate from it in one way or another, and now the original author is back writing the new Primaris DLC for it, it's likely to be even more flexible. Attitudes to diverging from it are going to vary between chapters, so while allowing Devastators to take Special Weapons might gravely offend some chapters, others won't care.

Chaos definitely don't care, they didn't use the Codex to begin with

As MDG says, it’s writ in The Codex on how to organize your fighting force.

Someone might have an issue with a chapter breaking this tenant. It’s a big universe, and a lot of people get bees in their bonnets over the tiniest things. But being non-adherent with the codex is not a death sentence. Plenty of chapters do their own thing all the time. Including 1st founding chapters.

IMHO most of the codex is suggestions and axioms on how to do things the best way generally. But in the flow of combat and campaigns, a fixed book, even one as glorious as The Codex, can’t cover every situation. For that, you need to improvise, even if The Codex does not approve of this action.

From a historical POV we see full squads of special weapons used in the heresy. So it’s not like the concept is new. But in a 40k small force marine army, having a squad of your rare troops dedicated to a hyper-specialized role is generally not a wise use of manpower. Too many eggs in one basket, not enough flexibility.

As a game mechanic aside, Marines could spam special weapons via command squads, and to a different degree sternguard. So there might be lore out there justifying these units doing just that.

And across the rubicon primaris, we see hellblasters, infernus, etc with the heavy support chevron on their shoulder. These are our modern devastator marines, all running around with what classically are special weapons. Take that back to the firstborn, and it gives you some fluff justification.

It’s also worth noting that infractions of the Codex Astartes are really difficult to punish.

Every Chapter is ultimately autonomous. They go where they will, and fight what they will. Other Imperial forces can of course request Astartes support, but even an Inquisitor can’t necessarily demand it.

So what you tend to see is a Chapter given a certain area of the Galaxy to patrol. This is often assigned when the Chapter is first created, and done by the High Lords of Terra. But once there? Exactly how they patrol is up to the Chapter. Even then, some Chapters (Black Templars are a notable one) will just go wherever they want, whenever they want, attacking whatever they want.

Sure, you are likely to draw unwelcome attention if you refuse to support without good reason. For instance, if a good portion of your Chapter happens to be farting around near Armageddon, but doesn’t send any element to join in the fun there? You’re gonna need a bloody good reason why. If you’re not near any particular hot zone, and don’t seem to be duffing anyone up ever? Again there are going to be questions.

But not arming your Devastators as per the Codex is a pretty minor infraction as such things go. Provided that decision doesn’t prevent you doing your job, or repeatedly causes imperial losses where perhaps some timely Lascannons and Krak Missiles would’ve made the difference? Nobody is really gonna care.

 Nevelon wrote:
Someone might have an issue with a chapter breaking this tenant. It’s a big universe, and a lot of people get bees in their bonnets over the tiniest things.

Speaking of which - tenet, not tenant. Breaking your tenants should be illegal.

Even when supporting other armed forces of the Imperium, Astartes are not particularly obliged to join in a given push or contribute to a given plan.

Sure, it’s often wise to do so, and arguably it’s as part of a combined force where the precision and ultra violence of the Astartes really comes into its own. But there’s no obligation to do so. And that goes both ways. If you’re a Chapter of loony turbo nutters like the Flesh Tearers? The other elements are ultimately within their rights to refuse to commit forces alongside you, as you don’t particularly want them butchered by their nominal allies.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
And second question, were a loyalist Chapter to decide to allow their devastators to run around with special weaponry (ie, 4 flamers, for example), would they get reprimanded?

No, though they probably wouldn't call it a 'devastator' squad. Just an over-equipped assault or tactical squad depending on their battlefield role.

In-game, Havoks are a throwback to the generic chaos marine infantry squads in 2e that could take 3 special or heavy weapons. They were split off into their own unit in 3e due to the more rigid FoC.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Someone might have an issue with a chapter breaking this tenant. It’s a big universe, and a lot of people get bees in their bonnets over the tiniest things.

Speaking of which - tenet, not tenant. Breaking your tenants should be illegal.

I cannot be held responsible for typos and autocorrect errors before I’m done with my first cup of coffee in the morning.

Morning posts over breakfast are going to be chocked full of errors. I’ll just issue a blanket apology for all of them now.

Fun fact: the codex squad size was inspired by the insect world; the ten-ants.

And now I’ll apologize for that horrible joke. Enjoy your days everyone.

Origins of the Devastator Squads come from Legiones Astartes Heavy Support Squads, right? If so, I see no reason why Devastators couldn't be equipped with special weapons if it was required of them.

Way I see it, the only thing that separates a Devastator Marine from a Tactical Marine is that a Devastator Marine is trained to operate/maintain heavy supoprt weapons and traditionally engages the target from a longer range than most tacticals. Also probably utilizing a more passive movement, using cover more, prioritizing vantage points and good sight lines.. They might not be as used to medium/close range combat and constant movement as tacs, but would have no problems acting in that role if it was required from them.

As for flamers, I thought this type of weapon was more used for supression from charges etc. This is why every Devastator squad in my armies has one HF, its the insurace against combatants who get too close for the other weapons to deal with effectively..

and what Codex Astartes say? What about it. Some Marine chapters couldnt care less while others do everytning by it. So its not relevant to consider Codex Astartes as anything holding one's (headcanon) back IMO

Conservation of resources after the introduction of the Codex Astartes.

When your company is only 100 Astartes, and 20 of those have to be Fire Support, you need to make that the best option you can.

Having a Devastator squad all with Flamers isn't a viable tactical option when having Lascannons, Heavy Bolters or Plasma Cannons that can take down hard targets like tanks or crazy monsters.

In-Universe the Devastator Squad is where Scout recruits first go once they're become a full Marine. Units with heavy weapons will likely deploy and act more conservatively than other units, so brings less risk to new Marines. I'm not sure about the timing, but being conservative with your new marines might also help ensure the primogenitor gland to come to it's first maturation to be harvested before they go on more risky assignments like the Assault teams.

 Insectum7 wrote:
In-Universe the Devastator Squad is where Scout recruits first go once they're become a full Marine. Units with heavy weapons will likely deploy and act more conservatively than other units, so brings less risk to new Marines. I'm not sure about the timing, but being conservative with your new marines might also help ensure the primogenitor gland to come to it's first maturation to be harvested before they go on more risky assignments like the Assault teams.

Exactly this. It's also a function of the change from Legion to Chapter structure. When you're operating in task forces so small as modern Chapters do, you don't need anything so dedicated and unwieldy as a traditional Tactical Support Squad. Devastators end up being more flexible offensively due to the greater power of their weapons (plasma cannons being better at blasting crowds than plasma guns, for example) while the mobility cost ends up being planned around.

We can also look to the shape of the galaxy when the Codex was formalised.

In terms of major foes? No Tau, Tyranids or Necrons. It was pretty much largely fragmented Chaos Warbands still recovering from the Heresy and Scouring which not only depleted their headcount, but saw them abandon materiel in the retreat and fighting. Eldar and Orks are…Eldar and Orks. With few things a Bolt round isn’t a perfectly acceptable answer to.

Hence, the Tactical Squad. Bolters for general purpose Making Things Go Away, and some extra firepower in case of opportunity or something a bit heftier in need of a kicking.

Devastators? In larger engagements provide precision support to knacker enemy armour.

Assault Squads? General purpose kicking.

The old Tactical Support squad (every brother equipped with the same special weapon) just doesn’t have the same role in a Chapter sized force. Though I guess in a sense Sternguard kinda fulfil that role, with greater flexibility.

A.T. wrote:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
And second question, were a loyalist Chapter to decide to allow their devastators to run around with special weaponry (ie, 4 flamers, for example), would they get reprimanded?

No, though they probably wouldn't call it a 'devastator' squad. Just an over-equipped assault or tactical squad depending on their battlefield role.

That was my thought; it's no longer really a "devastator squad" if they all have flamers, there isn't any tactical overlap with their normal role. Yeah if they were surrounded by ripper swarms they might all grab a flamer and burn their way out but it's no different from any other marines doing the same thing.

The question sort of just amounts to "is there a reason why the long-range fire support squad can't take miscellaneous short-range weapons?"

 Orkeosaurus wrote:

A.T. wrote:

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
And second question, were a loyalist Chapter to decide to allow their devastators to run around with special weaponry (ie, 4 flamers, for example), would they get reprimanded?

No, though they probably wouldn't call it a 'devastator' squad. Just an over-equipped assault or tactical squad depending on their battlefield role.

That was my thought; it's no longer really a "devastator squad" if they all have flamers, there isn't any tactical overlap with their normal role. Yeah if they were surrounded by ripper swarms they might all grab a flamer and burn their way out but it's no different from any other marines doing the same thing.

The question sort of just amounts to "is there a reason why the long-range fire support squad can't take miscellaneous short-range weapons?"

So the long and short of it is because the rulebook says so? fair enough.

the-gentleman-ranker wrote:
So the long and short of it is because the rulebook says so? fair enough.

If you consider the codex the rulebook.

Lore wise - the codex likely states something along the lines of 'form x number of squads into long range/heavy support squads' with notes like 'do not embed flamethrowers into your anti-tank squads' and 'the codex astartes does not approve of this action'.

Loyalist squad formation is based around practicality and while Guilliman himself would have seen them as guidelines he imposed them as dogma in his absence.
They make sense too - you'd not expect to see a flamethrower in a real-world mortar unit for instance.

Chaos by comparison are/were chaotic and formed of marines that are/were thrown together from whoever was available, with whatever they had on them. Lothar the Spiketaker, warlord of the Painbringers, isn't going to supply his minions with matching guns or demand that Mordred the Twisted swap out the autocannon fused to his arm for something more modern.

I think we can also consider the time when the Codex was written.

Commanders in a Legion Structure were facing greatly reduced numbers, and could no longer fight in the way the Legions had during the Crusade and Heresy.

Not only were you more limited in the resources at your beck and call? But those resources became ever more precious. Before, with a Legion’s worth of recruitment worlds and Geneseed banks, you could, in a pinch, sacrifice tens if not hundreds of Astartes if that was the right move to secure overall victory. Whilst never ideal, you could still replace those losses pretty swiftly, especially with Inductii.

When you’re a Chapter? Every death is sorely felt. More so if it was the result of a tactical blunder, doubly so if that meant you never got the chance to retrieve the Progenoid Glands from said fallen Brothers.

That is a big chunk of what the Codex was helping to address. How do you best use your now dramatically limited resources in the most efficient manner in defence of the Imperium.