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 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
(vehicles are made much smaller for gameplay practicality)

I will contest this somewhat. Most of the "golden era" vehicles are fine for scale, and some are actually quite large. They are acceptably in line with the heights (not the girth of "heroic scale") of models at the time. These days infantry models are all over the place, which changes things a bit. I remember seeing a HH box set being built and the character model was alarmingly larger than the troops. Looked all goofy. Compared to a classic Guardsman though, a Chimera is gigantic.

The main example that leaps to mind is the Rhino. It'd struggle to fit a full squad of even old scale Space Marines, and Space Marines (even firstborn) have grown while the Rhino has not.

The Spartan tank can supposedly fit 25 Space Marines, which despite its size feels questionable.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
(vehicles are made much smaller for gameplay practicality)

I will contest this somewhat. Most of the "golden era" vehicles are fine for scale, and some are actually quite large. They are acceptably in line with the heights (not the girth of "heroic scale") of models at the time. These days infantry models are all over the place, which changes things a bit. I remember seeing a HH box set being built and the character model was alarmingly larger than the troops. Looked all goofy. Compared to a classic Guardsman though, a Chimera is gigantic.

The main example that leaps to mind is the Rhino. It'd struggle to fit a full squad of even old scale Space Marines, and Space Marines (even firstborn) have grown while the Rhino has not.

The Spartan tank can supposedly fit 25 Space Marines, which despite its size feels questionable.

A Rhino won't fit 10 Space Marine models, but the models have always been broader and chunkier than what Space Marines are supposed to be, due to the heroic scaling. They also are generally in some kind of vaguely action or combat pose, rather than whatever pose they need to stand in to pack into an APC.

I don't think an equivalent has ever been released for Marines, but here is a comparison for the Gorgon showing the issue (images spoilered for size):



The latter shows Skitarii, but gives an idea of how many fewer troopers fit with heroic-scaled combat poses vs more true-scaled embarked poses.

To be honest, I think the sheer mass of the pauldrons alone would prevent them packing up like that.

Not even heroic scale can be blamed here. Their pauldrons are just as colossal in the artwork.

 Ashiraya wrote:
To be honest, I think the sheer mass of the pauldrons alone would prevent them packing up like that.

Not even heroic scale can be blamed here. Their pauldrons are just as colossal in the artwork.

It rather depends on how wide a Marine in power-armour is supposed to be at the shoulders. The interior compartment of a Rhino is in the ballpark of 3m long and a little narrower across. If Marines are 1m across at the shoulders, you can probably fit 10 in, albeit tightly (3 with backs to the wall on each side, 4 lined up in the middle facing the door). The classic line-drawing of a Marine at 7ft tall (spoilered below) makes the Marine ~1 1/3rd metres across at the shoulder, so could probably only fit about 7 marines in a Rhino at that size. That drawing is very clearly at similar proportions as the models though, and is intended as a painting guide, so is something of the upper limit for standard Marine sizes. Bear in mind the models are sufficiently over-wide that they can't actually fit through the Rhino hatches, so the hatches probably give a better indication of a true-scale Marine width. Edit: I suppose you could argue Rhinos are ~30% too small instead of Marines being 30% too wide in heroic scaling. Perhaps the "reality" is somewhere in the middle, although I favour the Marines being a bit narrower.

Nearly all artwork is artwork of the models anyway.
People still carry guns as big as their bodies without issue, with muzzles implying a bore size of about 3 inches when lore tells us it's more like 0.75 inches. Not to mention pump action shotguns firing out of the magazine tube and similar 'artistic licenses'.

The 40k universe is very much a universe that starts at the models and cascades down from there. It doesn't even touch the concept of what "reality" should be until it gets to nerds arguing on forums. It's almost an alien concept to the universe.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Heh. Some minis are not even to scale with themselves. How many of the pistols we see being waved around would fit into the holsters on the mini?

I will say this, I do appreciate that the streamlined Primaris-style bolt pistols seem to have been designed to actually fit in their own holsters in a way the older, more square bolt pistols absolutely never did.

Also true for a number of Horus Heresy pistols.

Wasn’t Primaris generally viewed as a move towards true-scaling?

 Haighus wrote:
Edit: I suppose you could argue Rhinos are ~30% too small instead of Marines being 30% too wide in heroic scaling. Perhaps the "reality" is somewhere in the middle, although I favour the Marines being a bit narrower.

Rhino being undersized has always been my impression.

Keep in mind these are not Guardsmen packed in like sardines and sent to die on a D-Day beach. These are Space Marines who have to carry their equipment with them (a Rhino has to fit ten devastators aboard, with their bulky backpacks and massive guns), as well as additional ammunition stores and other supplies. Ammunition in particular would be a huge tax on space. Space Marines go into great danger and do take losses, but compared to the horrible survival odds of a crowd of Kriegers sent into a forlorn hope charge aboard a Gorgon, their survival ratio is rather decent, which means they will live to voraciously devour bolt rounds and other munitions.

Space Marines are rapid shock troops, but they have also been deliberately engineered to fight on for ages if needed, lest we forget. It's why they can also go incredibly long without food or water.


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 sing your life wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Heh. Some minis are not even to scale with themselves. How many of the pistols we see being waved around would fit into the holsters on the mini?

I will say this, I do appreciate that the streamlined Primaris-style bolt pistols seem to have been designed to actually fit in their own holsters in a way the older, more square bolt pistols absolutely never did.

Also true for a number of Horus Heresy pistols.

Wasn’t Primaris generally viewed as a move towards true-scaling?

Absolutely. It was obviously the primary motivation. Also making them uniquely Primaris instead of just refreshing all the old units directly is a more debated thing, though, and I figure it was done just so GW feels they give you a reason to buy Hellblasters even if you are already fully stocked and satisfied on Devastators.