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Here’s hoping battlecannon and the like get something like Blast 3 or more but only one or two base shots.

I like the use of non-MONSTER/VEHICLE as a trigger for keywords - seems to be an option to let weapons trigger on a wider range of keywords without needing to list them all.

 Dysartes wrote:
I like the use of non-MONSTER/VEHICLE as a trigger for keywords - seems to be an option to let weapons trigger on a wider range of keywords without needing to list them all.

Easier then listing infantry/beast/swarm/mounted/etc.

I’d like to see more with keyword interactions, but there is a risk of bloating datasheets with tags that are only occasionally relevant. But something like biological/mechanical would be nice to have for things like haywire and poison to work with. They have a titanic tag that sees use, but it might be nice to have a “large” one for things bigger then man/bike sized that some stuff doesn’t get it’s bonuses against.

Probably too much grit for the scale of 40k these days. Plus unless you do it during a index reboot you would need to errata every unit.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
I like the use of non-MONSTER/VEHICLE as a trigger for keywords - seems to be an option to let weapons trigger on a wider range of keywords without needing to list them all.

Easier then listing infantry/beast/swarm/mounted/etc.

I’d like to see more with keyword interactions, but there is a risk of bloating datasheets with tags that are only occasionally relevant. But something like biological/mechanical would be nice to have for things like haywire and poison to work with. They have a titanic tag that sees use, but it might be nice to have a “large” one for things bigger then man/bike sized that some stuff doesn’t get it’s bonuses against.

Probably too much grit for the scale of 40k these days. Plus unless you do it during a index reboot you would need to errata every unit.

Unless they did a global rule for light/med/heavy/titanic keywords like "If a unit consists of models with a total printed toughness + wounds of less than 10, it gains the light keyword, between 11 and x it gains the medium" and then start printing it dayasheets directly as they redo. Not going to happen though.

Wonder how it might impact Splinter Weapons? From the lengthy DE thread, I understand they suffered from Anti-Infantry not helping against stuff like Crisis Suits and Bikes, because they’re not Infantry.

Granted, Anti-Non Monster/Vehicle is a fair bit of type. But we can hope.

It wouldn't help them against Crisis, because nowadays Crisis weirdly are Vehicles, despite not really being meaningfully bigger than the scale crept Terminators that modern GW is churning out.

I increasingly wish Tau were tiny and Fire Warriors were actually them piloting what is to them giant robots

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Well, for one, the ability to wear firstborn helmets at all means the "Primaris bigger" thing is largely not really a thing anymore.

Unsure what you mean by this. They've always been compatible with firstborn pauldrons and helmets. This is true both for the physical miniatures and the fact that Primaris characters have kept wearing relic helmets and the like (like the BT Helm of the Crusader).

I just can't imagine that people a foot taller can wear the same size helmet is all.

The Lion Helm is wearable by both the minimarines and the gigantic primarch...

Also, I don't think primaris ever were a foot taller, a few inches at most, if we look the art around their release. Of course the primaris models are scaled to be just seven feet tall, so they're just the normal marine height.
I think it would be fine to elide the awkward transitional fluff. Marines are marines.

I am reading the Alpha Legion series atm (which is very shining new), and it's very interesting how it portrays Primaris. They are so shiny and powerful and superior that their entrance really shocks the AL protagonists.

I don't know what is in GW's head, but this feels more like what GW would play into in the long term. Less sneaking Primaris into being what Marines always were, more "Primaris are so good and awesome that Firstborn are obsolete" and boom soon loyalist Firstborn are remembered only as inferior prototypes. Like a "sure grandpa let's get you to bed" type situation.

That just feels more like GW's style.

So one of the DE detachments is... take the Coven Coterie detachment rule but it will only applies to Talos/Cronos?

Annoyingly this probably is a buff, since you can probably slot it in with Spectacle of Spite etc.

But show some imagination GW.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am reading the Alpha Legion series atm (which is very shining new), and it's very interesting how it portrays Primaris. They are so shiny and powerful and superior that their entrance really shocks the AL protagonists.

I don't know what is in GW's head, but this feels more like what GW would play into in the long term. Less sneaking Primaris into being what Marines always were, more "Primaris are so good and awesome that Firstborn are obsolete" and boom soon loyalist Firstborn are remembered only as inferior prototypes. Like a "sure grandpa let's get you to bed" type situation.

That just feels more like GW's style.

I think that's how they were presented early on, mostly as a way to try to sell them to players and as a way to echo/adjust player feelings towards them. You'll find a lot of the 8th edition stories have a "I wasn't sure what to think of these guys but it turns out they saved the day and are alright". I don't think that was the original intention though.

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that 8th was supposed to be a total Age of Sigmar scale reboot. Armies would be invalidated and relaunched as a new model line. The AoS blowback caused them to backpedal and instead we got more of a phased approach where they had to coexist. A lot of the Rubicon fluff seems to exist solely as an excuse for this and now that most of the original line has new era replacements, it seems like things are shifting towards presenting more as it was originally intended as just improved tech post timeskip.

I have been gathering all my marines and doing an inventory for the next edition and was looking closely at the Suppressors. Is the word on the street still that they will be dropped?
I think they can be easily converted into the new heavy bolter Eradicators.

Im really surprised how much infantry I already have I think I rather invest in Dreads, termis, vehicles this time around.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am reading the Alpha Legion series atm (which is very shining new), and it's very interesting how it portrays Primaris. They are so shiny and powerful and superior that their entrance really shocks the AL protagonists.

I don't know what is in GW's head, but this feels more like what GW would play into in the long term. Less sneaking Primaris into being what Marines always were, more "Primaris are so good and awesome that Firstborn are obsolete" and boom soon loyalist Firstborn are remembered only as inferior prototypes. Like a "sure grandpa let's get you to bed" type situation.

That just feels more like GW's style.

I think that's how they were presented early on, mostly as a way to try to sell them to players and as a way to echo/adjust player feelings towards them. You'll find a lot of the 8th edition stories have a "I wasn't sure what to think of these guys but it turns out they saved the day and are alright". I don't think that was the original intention though.

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that 8th was supposed to be a total Age of Sigmar scale reboot. Armies would be invalidated and relaunched as a new model line. The AoS blowback caused them to backpedal and instead we got more of a phased approach where they had to coexist. A lot of the Rubicon fluff seems to exist solely as an excuse for this and now that most of the original line has new era replacements, it seems like things are shifting towards presenting more as it was originally intended as just improved tech post timeskip.

There's definitely been some shifting around, but these Alpha Legion novels are just so recent, I feel like it's a peek into the zeitgeist.

The first novel is from 2022, then the latest is from February this year. By 40k lore standards that's still steaming out of the oven.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Well, for one, the ability to wear firstborn helmets at all means the "Primaris bigger" thing is largely not really a thing anymore.

Unsure what you mean by this. They've always been compatible with firstborn pauldrons and helmets. This is true both for the physical miniatures and the fact that Primaris characters have kept wearing relic helmets and the like (like the BT Helm of the Crusader).

I just can't imagine that people a foot taller can wear the same size helmet is all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrud_the_Barbarian

The increased height seems to be longer limbs and torso, not just a straight scaling up of all proportions.

Random question…

How early do we think the Ultramarines characters have been released compared to intended?

Just been looking at the new Calgar model and noticed he has an Armageddon campaign token/icon on his waist exactly like the new Captain in the Starter box.

Is it possible they were to be released in 11th not late tenth?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
How early do we think the Ultramarines characters have been released compared to intended?

Just been looking at the new Calgar model and noticed he has an Armageddon campaign token/icon on his waist exactly like the new Captain in the Starter box.

Is it possible they were to be released in 11th not late tenth?

I doubt it, I think GW has changed their release schedule in the past but releasing something (more than) a year in advance seems unlikely. Don't remember exactly what it was, but I think they've had to delay stuff in the past that was dependent on external manufacturers (cardboard pieces, etc...).

Also, the symbol on Calgar's waist looks different to the Armageddon icon; the cross has flat ends instead of arrows. The design looks more like the one from Leviathan, like in the Honoured of the Chapter box.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It wouldn't help them against Crisis, because nowadays Crisis weirdly are Vehicles, despite not really being meaningfully bigger than the scale crept Terminators that modern GW is churning out.

But crisis suits are vehicles. They are tiny mechas, vs terminators, that are guys on a power armour. At least the normal terminators. Nobody knows how a human fits the Saturnine Terminator armor.

I saw an imagine where the marine is doing a handstand and it makes a lot of sense...

Where does a heavily armoured suit end and a walker begin has been a continuous problem in 40k and getting more difficult to define as GW makes bigger and bigger armours and smaller and smaller vehicles.
But I guess the functional difference right now is if the limbs of the squishy bit inside directly matches the limbs of their hard shell. Hence Terminator armour = infantry and XV8 = vehicle. Saturnine = don't think about it.

In an ideal world it *shouldn't* matter. The functional/mechanical element of those two states should transition across the spectrum in a way that matches the models.

Unfortunately, the 40k ruleset atm is based heavily on the interactions between special rules and keywords. Which means there's a big and fundemental difference between "vehicle" and "infantry" or whatever.

IMO a game like DUST1947 had a great system of handling this transition, where increasingly heavily armoured infantry would become increasingly indistinguishable from increasingly lightly armoured vehicles.

At least these days it’s just a keyword. Which while not nothing, is a far cry from when some units had toughness, and others had an armor value. Completely different systems. With the monstrous creatures generally being far superior to the vehicles. And which one was what was often a dart toss.

Very true
That worked kind of okay until 6th edition when they added Riptides and Wraithknights which really showed how quickly monstrous creatures 'broke' when given better stats.

Although I guess the Wraithlord vs Warwalker was always a contentious spot

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Very true
That worked kind of okay until 6th edition when they added Riptides and Wraithknights which really showed how quickly monstrous creatures 'broke' when given better stats.

Although I guess the Wraithlord vs Warwalker was always a contentious spot

Yup. Riptides and such in 6th was when it started getting real bad. But the salt in 3rd with the eldar dreadnought being a T7 (later T8) model vs. a vehicle was epic. Some of that was just handwaved away as Eldar being Eldar, and not the most broken thing they were up to.

This argument of vehicles and monsters has been with us a long time.

Nice article on the lineage of the Land Speeder - though if you're going to say "the OG is back" when describing the upcoming one, why can't I see the crew's knees?

 Dysartes wrote:
Nice article on the lineage of the Land Speeder - though if you're going to say "the OG is back" when describing the upcoming one, why can't I see the crew's knees?

To be fair, the RT one was not around for very long. And was a bit silly. The plastic one from the 3rd starter had a long run. It was recut once with new bits, but kept the same look for decades.

I still think the 1998 one is peak. I've used converted ones for my Horus Heresy army
But I can appreciate the retro design of the original

That article reminded me of how much I love the 2E land speeder. Time to scour eBay again.

 Dysartes wrote:
Nice article on the lineage of the Land Speeder - though if you're going to say "the OG is back" when describing the upcoming one, why can't I see the crew's knees?

They indeed managed to mention every single LS model (bar the HH and Epic ones) - thought they'd forget the Tempest, but it's at the end of the article.

Speaking of HH, there you can find the Proteus to shamelessly gaze at the knees of some Marines.

kirotheavenger wrote:I still think the 1998 one is peak. I've used converted ones for my Horus Heresy army
But I can appreciate the retro design of the original

KidCthulhu wrote:That article reminded me of how much I love the 2E land speeder. Time to scour eBay again.

Agree. While MM/HF was an iffy choice of wargear when you could not split fire, the aesthetics were on point. Love my old chunk of flying lead.

The early 3rd ones were a bear to assemble. Don’t know if I ever built the redone kit. But have 3 of those guys on the shelf.

And a LSS.

Love speeders.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/uwdimgen/new40k-rules-da-biggest-and-best-orks-in-da-box/

New datasheets are out for the Ork leaders in the box. Biggest changes seem to primarily for the Warboss, his Kustom Choppa went up to AP-2 and an extra attack alongside the teased Cleave rule. Will definitely be more of a choice alongside the Power Klaw now, depending on what the enhancements look like.

Existing models look largely the same outside of that, the Big Boss is pretty underwhelming since you're largely taking him for the Sustained Hits 1, which implies changes to War Horde or it being removed as a detachment. Banner Nob's utility will depend on how aggressively or conservatively they price him.