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 Gert wrote:
Chaos is also eternal. As soon as they existed they have also always existed. Time doesn't really exist in the Warp, it's why Slaanesh wasn't birthed until M30 but also was able to be one of the Colchisian Pantheon and the patron of the Laer.

Which is not inconsistent, mind you. Fulgrim is set after the Fall of the Eldar. The Fall of the Eldar occurred roughly at the very beginning of the Great Crusade, whereas the Laer are encountered by the Emperor's Children at its end, centuries later.

Edit: Looked it up. 250 years later near on the dot.

Yes but there were many pre-Imperial societies both human and xenos that worshipped Slaanesh in various guises.

Also the likelihood of the Laer going from planet bound to securing their star system with advanced technologies in only 250 years is very unlikely.

The point is, when one of the Gods manifested in the Warp, it had from that point always existed. They're a paradox because they don't conform to the laws of physics not being from the physical plane.

I think that Slaanesh is not the god of 'Excess', but the god of 'Desire". Arn't all the gods their domain taken to excess.

 Gert wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Wait, really? Nurgle is that young? That's... I'm not a fan of how human-centric it seems for a time when humanity was barely a blip within the galaxy.

That's just the human marker for it. Humanity didn't cause the rise of the Dark Gods, but their manifesting had implications for Earth and humanity.

Adamantium Dodecahedron wrote:

Wait, I was under the impression Slaanesh was the youngest of the four. Is that only in Fantasy?

The collapse of the Aeldari was around M30 so the difference between the middle ages of Earth and then is still a long time for sentient species.

It's important to remember that until the Fall of the Aeldari, the galaxy wasn't the crazy mess it was in the time of the Imperium. Apart from the Cybernetic Revolt it was humanity building its empire, the Aeldari doing crazy amounts of drugs within their borders, and the Orks just muckin about.

It is still suspiciously human-centric, IMO. In the 60-65 million years following the War in Heaven and the Warp first becoming tumultuous, 3 of the Chaos Gods only arise during a few thousand years that a few million humans are starting to develop civilisation? Just a very narrow time window for such a long period.

I can accept Slaanesh as being outside of that, even if ~30000 years after the others is still less than 0.1% of the period since the Warp was destabilised.

Either way, unless a few million humans creating early civilisations are enough to create a Chaos god when millions of years of other xenos were not, the Chaos gods are all still primarily created by the effects of xenos species, so their specific aspects and emotional connections do not have to translate perfectly to human emotions to still make lore sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Adamantium Dodecahedron wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch don't predate humanity, they came to fruition as humanity started to become civilised.

Wait, I was under the impression Slaanesh was the youngest of the four. Is that only in Fantasy?

Slaanesh is the youngest, being born circa 30k CE, vs circa 1350 CE for Nurgle. (According to the RoC section Gert is referencing)

It’s not explicit when the other two were born Tzeentch was when ‘nations and politics grew to adulthood’ which could be many things. Sumeria in 4-5k BC (unlikely, see below)? Greek city states and Athenian democracy circa 500 BC? Roman Empire circa 0 CE? Something in the Middle Ages shortly before the birth of Nurgle?

Khorne was when ‘an age of wars and conflicts raged across the globe’. So could be anytime tbh, though apparently ‘many thousands of years after’ the Emperor’s birth in circa 7-8k BC.

The latter sounds like it is probably supposed to refer to the World Wars, or perhaps some of the later colonial conflicts that were global like the Napoleonic Wars.

3 gods appearing within, at most, 7 thousand years out of 60-65 million really seems... too narrow.

Given this is pretty ancient lore from Rogue Trader I think it would probably be better for it to be quietly retconned, perhaps as the suppositions of a (human) scholar of Chaos rather than "fact". I don't think the older 3 need an event to be explicitly described in lore as Slaanesh has, but the lore really doesn't benefit from being so human-centric for such galaxy-defining entities. It is already bad enough that we have very limited representation of Chaos xenos. I'd love a model of an Eldar Daemon prince of Slaanesh, or for a unit of the Thyrrus (not explicitly Chaos, but seems very likely from the description we have).

Tygre wrote:
I think that Slaanesh is not the god of 'Excess', but the god of 'Desire". Arn't all the gods their domain taken to excess.

No, and yes, in that order.

Slaanesh is about experience, the more extreme the better.

Which is why Slaanesh is such a threat to the other Gods. Whilst still young and growing in power? Every single act of excess feeds Slaanesh. Now, it may be crumbs from the table, but it’s still grist for Slaanesh’s mill.

Acts of excess dedicated to Slaanesh via ritual of course provide the more. But there’s a constant supply of excess in the Galaxy. Heck, even the Path System of the Craftworlds are a form of excess.

Exactly the case.

Allow me to provide some photos (sorry for shoddy quality):

Battletome: Slaves to Darkness:



Codex: Chaos Daemons:

On a god of fear?

Fear isn’t a complex emotion, it’s more instinctual. It’s like a side dish to a main course. Fear of failure. Fear of dying. Fear of heights.

The Chaos Gods seem to embody and encourage more complex emotions. For instance? Despair. Despair requires sentience, and the feeling that things are never, ever going to get better for you. That requires the ability to think into the future and see possible scenarios. Greed goes beyond desire, as it’s about wanting as much as you can get for yourself and hoarding it.

Animals get angry. But rage is something more. Anger isn’t necessarily healthy, but doesn’t, unlike rage, lead to a loss of self control.

So, the four Gods all have something to gain from fear. But none claim it all for themselves.

There may well be a minor god of Chaos that’s closely associated with Fear, sure. But it’s not the same foodstuff the big four devour with such gusto.

Both in IRL and fictional pantheons gods of fear tend to be minor gods rather than fear being an aspect of a major diety.

Mod edit - removed.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Both in IRL and fictional pantheons gods of fear tend to be minor gods rather than fear being an aspect of a major diety.

That is strange, is it not? I wonder why.

I am suddenly reminded of the (joke) chaos god of atheism, Nehoco.

Chaos0xomega is right on that point. Fear is not only a immediate fight-or-flight response, it can be in the background, coloring your decisions in subtle but relevant ways.

And with that being said, please let us not discuss specific real-life politics anymore.

Is fear an emotion or an instinct? You could say it’s part of the fight or flight mechanism in our brains, which is a hormone response like everything, but fear can lead to joy (rollercoaster) as much as it can lead to horror or despair. It’s a heightened sense of awareness triggered by danger but it’s not the same as anxiety.

Space marines have had this function turned off or muted to the point it’s almost impossible for it to be triggered.

And therefore I’d suggest that fear plays an important role in all the gods existence. Fear would be a catalyst on the battlefield driving people to frenzy. Fear of suffering turned the death guard to nurgle. The fear of losing and the rush of winning is a big part of gambling and scheming. And I can only begin to imagine how fear must play a part in driving people to excesses

mrFickle wrote:
Is fear an emotion or an instinct? You could say it’s part of the fight or flight mechanism in our brains, which is a hormone response like everything, but fear can lead to joy (rollercoaster) as much as it can lead to horror or despair. It’s a heightened sense of awareness triggered by danger but it’s not the same as anxiety.

Space marines have had this function turned off or muted to the point it’s almost impossible for it to be triggered.

And therefore I’d suggest that fear plays an important role in all the gods existence. Fear would be a catalyst on the battlefield driving people to frenzy. Fear of suffering turned the death guard to nurgle. The fear of losing and the rush of winning is a big part of gambling and scheming. And I can only begin to imagine how fear must play a part in driving people to excesses

Fear is an emotion.

The fight or flight (or freeze) response is a stress response characterised by the release of certain hormones. How this is then interpreted by the human brain is context specific and varies from person to person. It can be interpreted as fear, but it can also be interpreted as excitement. The latter is part of why people enjoy things like rollercoasters.

Equally, fear can be what triggers the stress response- most of the time the stress response is triggered by what the brain thinks is something it does not have the capacity to manage. The stress response can be triggered by biological stress such as during an injury or infection, but this is less common for humans. Usually you see or hear or otherwise sense something you interpret as stressful, and that then triggers the stress response.

Yeah I figured the response would be “it’s an emotion” but I think my general point still stands that fear is ubiquitous and a component of so many other more finely tuned emotions that the gods want. Fear isn’t enough for Khorne, he wants someone to become so scared the turn into a frenzied maniac and kills everyone even their allies.

Slaneesh wants someone to be so scared their heart explodes or they agree to humiliate themselves in exchange for the torture to stop

 Gert wrote:
Chaos is also eternal. As soon as they existed they have also always existed. Time doesn't really exist in the Warp, it's why Slaanesh wasn't birthed until M30 but also was able to be one of the Colchisian Pantheon and the patron of the Laer.

I know this is canon, but I kind of hate the whole "retroactively always existed" thing. It creates a lot of logical problems that make the gods kind of difficult to utilize in a sensical fashion, and it seems to do so just for the sake of making them seem more alien/unknowable. Like, a retroactively existing Slaanesh begs the question of how the eldar pantheon got sucker punched by her and why they didn't proactively prevent her from coming into existence in the first place.

Which to be honest? Is suitably Chaotic.

The whole point of 40K and wider Warhammer Lore is that the dark gods are insane and utterly inscrutable.

They exist in a dimension where the natural laws we all obey, even if you’re a Flermin and outright deny said natural laws, Just Don’t Apply.

Yet. We understand our dimension. And whilst imperfect, even now mankind has some understanding of the immutable laws (speed of light for instance). And because of that, and that’s all we’ve ever experienced? There will always, always be someone determined to codify the laws of the warp.

Because to think “they don’t just ignore our laws, but have absolutely none of their own” is so utterly alien to our lived experience.

Honestly, I am kind of okay with gods existing retroactively because it helps explain why ships can come out of the warp at a different time, both into the past and into the future. It should just mean Slaanesh exists less in the past than the other three.

And this time discrepancy is a very neat thing to have access to when writing stuff for a setting as convoluted as 40K...IF USED SPARINGLY. Time displacement should in my opinion always be writting as a mistake that does not solve anything.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Chaos is also eternal. As soon as they existed they have also always existed. Time doesn't really exist in the Warp, it's why Slaanesh wasn't birthed until M30 but also was able to be one of the Colchisian Pantheon and the patron of the Laer.

I know this is canon, but I kind of hate the whole "retroactively always existed" thing. It creates a lot of logical problems that make the gods kind of difficult to utilize in a sensical fashion, and it seems to do so just for the sake of making them seem more alien/unknowable. Like, a retroactively existing Slaanesh begs the question of how the eldar pantheon got sucker punched by her and why they didn't proactively prevent her from coming into existence in the first place.

But on the upside, GW doesn't have to think too hard about continuity!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Which to be honest? Is suitably Chaotic.

The whole point of 40K and wider Warhammer Lore is that the dark gods are insane and utterly inscrutable.

They exist in a dimension where the natural laws we all obey, even if you’re a Flermin and outright deny said natural laws, Just Don’t Apply.

Yet. We understand our dimension. And whilst imperfect, even now mankind has some understanding of the immutable laws (speed of light for instance). And because of that, and that’s all we’ve ever experienced? There will always, always be someone determined to codify the laws of the warp.

Because to think “they don’t just ignore our laws, but have absolutely none of their own” is so utterly alien to our lived experience.

See, I think I'd be more okay with it if the chaos gods were generally more alien/nonsensical. But in most respects, the chaos gods "aren't that deep, bro." Like, they're essentially just wonky organisms that want to eat and be strong and want to guide their environment (the warp and by extension the galaxy) in a direction that helps them eat and be strong. And what personality traits they exhibit beyond that are relatable enough to be put into human terms, even if we allow that those human terms are a rough translation of something more alien. Khorne gets cranky when one of his greater daemons dares to take a swing at him. Slaanesh is petty and plays favorites. Tzeentch is a troll and a schemer. Nurgle likes spreading life but doesn't particularly care what form that life takes.

The "always existed" thing is a pain because it's one of the few attributes of chaos gods that is bonkers enough to actually be kind of a brain bender without just being some "lolrandom" thing that you can't meaningfully interact with.

Adamantium Dodecahedron wrote:Honestly, I am kind of okay with gods existing retroactively because it helps explain why ships can come out of the warp at a different time, both into the past and into the future. It should just mean Slaanesh exists less in the past than the other three.

And this time discrepancy is a very neat thing to have access to when writing stuff for a setting as convoluted as 40K...IF USED SPARINGLY. Time displacement should in my opinion always be writting as a mistake that does not solve anything.

See, the ships coming out of the warp in the past thing is mostly fine because the distances traveled tend to make it kind of a non-issue. Unless you're going out of your way to try and impact your past timeline, having your estimated 2 week travel time reduced to negative 3 days usually doesn't matter in a way that makes things confusing.

Haighus wrote:
But on the upside, GW doesn't have to think too hard about continuity!

Except that it actually makes continuity way harder to make sense of. See: the eldar pantheon example.

"The Chaos Gods always existed retroactively once born" is similar to the notion that the Warp is shared across WHFB and 40k.

Yes, GW has said it, but it's much better if you pretend they didn't, because it creates mountains of plot holes.

This is also explained by liber chaotica and the realms, and you can see it in Slannesh.

Slannesh is an eldar god, solely created by them. Yet slannesh now is a universal chaos god, tempting anyone and everyone.

And that's because the eternal warp entity of desire is made up of the images of every sentient species and they are all different. When the eldar created slannesh, they simply powered their version within the entity to primacy and it basically became the face of the brand.This is where the misunderstanding about chaos causes issues with reconciling it. It's a sharks are fish situation.

Khorne, the human imprint of rage, woke in the middle ages. But we know that aliens before humans even existed also empowered the warp god of rage. They wouldn't be beholden to the particular idiosyncrasies of human rage, and that's why Khaine was the bigger version before humanity showed up. There was 60 million years of aliens feeding the warp after the war in heaven and not a single human to be seen.

Starting from the assumption that the concept of khorne is the eternal image of warp rage is the problem. Just as slannesh doesn't force human worshippers to be eldar and act eldar-y, or only work on eldar. This is why the chaos gods have different names, because not only are they seen differently by different species, they act differently as well. Hermaphrodite species that lay eggs and never evolved sexual pleasure to encourage reproduction would not be drawn to slanneshi depravity if it didn't conform to their species-specific emotional idiosyncrasies. As psychic as the eldar are, even they couldn't conceptualise every form of desire that a sentient species can generate, especially when many of those desires are going to be hardwired biology that if you lack, you can't connect with (it would be like them developing echolocation). Slannesh was built from very eldar desires, within the finite scope of eldar experience. It might be bigger than humanity's, but it's not infinitely able to appeal to all sentient organisms. but SLANNESH (the greater warp entity), is a universal attractor. And therefore must be full of attractants that aren't limited to the species that birth slannesh (lower case eldar creation). And there again, is where the faces of the gods, the storms of emotion and the liber chaotica explain it.

I find it amazing that people keep ignoring that slannesh is an eldar god that is now a generic pleasure god, and yet can't apply that to the other gods as the liber chaotica did. That's literally what happened and it shows that the chaos gods at birth aren't monolith monospecies entities.

The idea that if humanity went extinct and the alien race of tax accountants gained ascendancy who's psychological rage preference is sending passive aggressive emails, would somehow be forced to chaos rage like an extinct species just because rage conformed to their psyche is silly. The chaos gods are mirrors of reality and if the sentients in reality change, they are changed too.

The warp entities of rage, hope, despair and desire before humans existed were different, but they were still fish. King shark Khorne is just the dominant aspect because humanity is the dominant species feeding it. But only the rage is eternal, not humanity's specific brand.


You can dislike the concept but GW specifically printed a series of 4 books that went into detail about this. And it does the neat thing of providing a theory of 40k metaphysics that explains every god, chaos undivided, how they can be born and everything else. It's the only thing GW has produced that provides that synethsis

Liber Chaotica is now a somewhat obscure book though.

There are minor dieties and powerful daemons that might claim that title.
Malice, who is known as hierarch of terror
Ans'l, Mo'rcck, and Phraz-Etar are minor gods that heretic astartes honour by putting spikes on their armour
Be'lakor who feeds on pain and terror

As for the big 4, it seems that they all use fear to attract followers and as weapons

Malal/Malice is a tricky spot thats down to copyright stuff from yon early days of Warhammer.

The middle three are jokes.

Belakor is a Daemon Prince and a chump.

I think the other key is that we call them Gods but they aren't actually gods.

They are simply very very very powerful warp beings that have managed to amass enough power within the Warp that they dominate it. They aren't celestial beings like most religions would have gods; the Chaos Gods are simply four very powerful Warp entities.

As such there are others - for example Gork and Mork (or Gorkamorka) are equally if not more powerful (they'll sometimes invade Nurgles Garden to mess it up for fun). The Pantheon of Eldar Gods before Slaanesh was Born; the Greater Good that the Tau allies are steadily creating (and might be being accelerated by those same shadowy forces that are hinted at helping the Tau rise up in the first place); The Emperor or an entity that is taking the Emperor's place is also a strong potential (partly hinted at by the powers that bless the Sisters of Battle).


In theory you could have a warp god of Fear right now; its just way weaker than the others so doesn't feature at the galactic scale that the lore and game pitch at.



Another thing, that I find is a bit more developed in AoS; is this concept of unity in the Warp. Demons of Nurgle are all Nurgle. They fight, they compete over souls with each other; but they are all Nurgle. A bit like taking a single person and having their individual cells be living breathing intelligent creatures can act for the greater good of the whole. So even though there are teeming masses of Nurglings; there's still only one Nurgle.
However because those entities can act on their own they'll do all kinds of things like have greater demons pretend to be other named gods for different races/religions so that they can sup on the belief and powers and corrupt people. Twisting them to Nurgle even though those people are believing in the "Great Giver of Life" or the "Great God of Decay" or such.
Which leads to the fact that greater demons don't have to feed on a specific brand of belief. They are gods of X and X defines their behaviour; actions; corruption and how they might tempt someone to their service; but they can sup upon all the emotional energies and soul that that believer has. Esp since emotions are static constructs like in a video game; the emotion of Fear that you hold could be a whole collection of other emotions all jumbled up together. A Chaos Demon of Fear would just use fear as their anchor point to draw you in and corrupt you.

 Gert wrote:
Malal/Malice is a tricky spot thats down to copyright stuff from yon early days of Warhammer.

The middle three are jokes.

Belakor is a Daemon Prince and a chump.

Malal can't be used, but Malice is basically a reimagining and is in current lore.

Jokes, perhaps, but part of the lore non the less, you'd be surprised how much lore started as an in joke between a bunch of nerds.

As for Be'lakor, he's a prince in name, but his power level is more like minor deity, at least on the power level as Vashtor and higher level greater demons