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How do!

Welcome to first in what may become a series of Dememification threads. The intent here is to take a subject which has been heavily memed, and try get back to facts. And the poll showed Ork Tek to be the firm favourite as a jumping off point. This is still an experimental format, so apologies if it ends up somewhat rambling. Whilst I’ve a loose format in mind? I do tend to whimbrel. Yeah. Whimbrel.

Right, let’s get into it.

The Claim of the meme

Orky faith/psychics allow them to overrule reality. They can do stuff like pick up a roughly gun shaped rock, and it will fire as if it is a gun through sheer force of Orky will. In other words? Orks can shape reality.

The source of the claim

With thanks to Haighus for providing the linked image.



Now, this is an in-universe report, by a Mechanicus Adept. And we can see the claim is actually that he’s studied Ork weapons, and has decided that whilst they shouldn’t work, they do seem to work when wielded by Orks.

And their observations include that yes, Red Ones Do Go Fasta - but offers a rationalisation as to why. And importantly, that rationalisation matches other canonical sources, specifically that a Mek can create wonders, but doesn’t have a proper, conscious understanding of what they’re doing. Most interestingly, that began as far back as Rogue Trader, and came from the “omniscient external narrator” that is the person writing the book in the real world.

My analysis

It does fall somewhat short of the meme claim. And despite the author being on the money about Red Ones? They’re still of questionable authority on all the claims. The Mechanicus after all only has a loose grip on mankind’s own technology. So, the most we can really take from it is that single individual doesn’t understand how some Orky devices work.

Looking at the wider universe? There’s all sorts of “might as well be magic” technology floating around. Necrons and Eldar are particularly notable there. Even The Imperium has wondrous technology, such as Mind Impulse Units, Thrones Mechanicum and Helms Mechanicum, which directly link a pilot to their machine, allowing it to become an extension of their own body. Hell, even the humble Lasgun is a technological miracle given its energy output and tiny, incredibly reliable power packs.

And whilst we’re looking at the wider universe? People constantly and inaccurately dismiss Orks as mindless brutes. There’s widespread, completely incorrect and you’ll be lucky to survive the resulting lesson, assumptions that such a rough and ready society is utterly incapable of Very Clever Stuff.

My favourite example of this would be the Ufthakk Blackhawk novel, Da Big Dakka.

There, we follow Ufthakk’s part of the Tek-Waaagh! into Commoragh. Well. Part of Commoragh. The Dark Eldar seal them in a set area, deactivating and locking the Webway portals, so they can gather sufficient forces to wipe out the Orks. Only…to massively underestimate the Orks. First, the Orks build a Tellyporta, and send mobs deeper into that part of Commoragh. Next, by wiring up a Weirboy to a Webway Portal, then getting all the Boyz very excited? They breach a sealed Webway portal, allowing the invasion to continue.

And we get some interesting thoughts from the Archon on that. Ones of utter bafflement and shock. Too late, they realise Orks aren’t the unlovely misshapen lumpen primitives. They’re weirdly sophisticated. And at one point, the Archon wonders if Ork can just bully physics into submission through sheer force of will.

So, that more or less mirrors the original source text above.

But, the truth of the matter is that Mekboyz are resourceful, and the knowledge database they draw on clearly includes very advanced understanding of physics and other sciences. It just doesn’t come to the fore until a given problem requires it. They’re not actually breaking physics or science, anymore than Necrons are. They just have a completely unexpected knowledge of it, which may well eclipse that of most other species entirely. Orks being Orks though, it’s just not something they work on. They’re almost Idiot Savants there. That a Mekboy likely couldn’t tell you exactly what it is he’s just rigged up, or on what principles it works is of no consequence. All that matters is that it works. Thats pretty much all they’re interested in. A problem is presented, the Mek’s instinct like skills create a solution, the solution works. And then everyone is too busy getting into the next fight to care much further.

We also see Orks use other wondrous technology in suitably barbaric ways - often because the effects are as funny as they are deadly. Bubble Chukkas, Lifta-Droppas, Traktor Kannons all use physics bending principles to shove, throw and encase stuff. Oh, the same Tek is applied more sensibly (Bubble Chukkas are an adaptation of the power fields Orks use to protect their ships and Gargants and so on). But they’re still used as weapons where the next race might consider that a squandering of such power.

Now, let’s go back to the weapons in question. Having established that Orky tech is woefully misunderstood? We can’t rule out the author of the report was missing stuff. A Slugga with no trigger is such a basic bit of Orky kit, maybe it simply didn’t occur to the author to see if it might have some kind of MIU equivalent. We know certain Eldar tech is triggered by psychic impulse after all (Mandiblaster and Tormentor Helms to name but two), and they’re not considered magical or impossible. It could be the inherent psychic field of very excited Orks having a really good fight fills in the odd gap, like a sort of psychic lubricant. Perhaps the Ork wielding it has a power source in its body, courtesy of some Painboy and Mek crafted bionik bit, and that is used to spark off each round.

It could be that whilst the author could name a number of ways the weapon could be made to work as it stands? Its methods they consider wasteful, or genuinely doesn’t believe Orks could possibly have that sort of knowledge. It’s not far off the racist roots of alternative archaeology. That if the colonial invaders ancestors couldn’t have built that monument, the natives most certainly couldn’t. A scientific racism if you will (please note that doesn’t mean I’m claiming anyone interested in alternative archaeology is therefore a racist. I’m not, and let’s just leave that one there).

My conclusion

But, what it does not do, nor does the report claim? Is allow an Ork to simply reshape reality on a whim. The answer is, as I’ve hopefully set out above, considerably more interesting than that. That not only do Mekboyz have a shocking amount of knowledge to draw on? But they’ll come up with novel solutions using that knowledge, which leaves the other races scientists baffled. It could be “but no one in their right mind would use X to achieve Y”. It could be “nope, Orks are mere brutes, couldn’t possibly be clever, therefore mysticism and magic”. It could be the underlying principle is just one nobody else has really discovered or explored yet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It may be particularly pronounced for the Imperium, because their approach to technology and innovation is the polar opposite. A Mek cobbling together something from whatever is on hand is anathema to the Mechanicus’ approach.

And that’s been the Imperial status quo for so long? The option to just have a bodge and see how it goes may simply not occur. Though Necromunda does show innovation and resourcefulness remains a part of human society, even if it’s not exactly sanctioned or encouraged.

The Armageddon Ork Hunters can use Ork guns so it shows they work independently of whether an Ork is present or not.

The Ork Meks have always been described as sort of idiot savants or intuitive mechanics. They don't know why something works other than it just feels right, but their encoded knowledge gives them a level of force field technology that has in the past canonically been said to exceed even the Eldar. It's just the rest of their psychology wants the visceral thrill of "dakka" so they stick to solid shot and explosive weapons. Their ability to do directed energy weapons may also have some limitations as in BFG they struggle to get working lances, at a level of miniaturization and mass production that the Imperium and Chaos can manage.

Specifically with regards to Red Wunz going Faster, the word "nominally" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in the phrase "when all other design aspects are nominally the same".
Rogue Trader (Waagh the Orks, page 25) tells us:


This point is somewhat reiterated in the Deffcoptas entry in the 4th edition Codex: Orks:

They never make the same machine twice

So even if two Trukks are nominally the same (to the eyes of an alien techpriest, no less), they will not be the same, and if those minor, not-noticed-by-the-techpriest variations add up to a perceptible increase in performance, that would lend credence to the idea that the Meks are essentially subconsciously marking their best work with red, rather than it being a causal relationship.

Again from Waagh the Orks, page 26:


So Ork technology is not just unreliable, it's unreliable in proportion to the available number of Meks in a warband. If Ork weapons were just boxes of nondescript nuts and bolts that fired through the power of orky belief, the presence or otherwise of Meks would be irrelevant, it would be the size of the overall warband that determined the reliability of their equipment - more Orks = More Belief = More working tech.

But it isn't, It's proportional to the Meks specifically, which implies reliability is a function of technological ability rather than anything else - Meks access their genetic knowledge sporadically, so it makes perfect sense that having a large number of Meks around increases the chances that at least one of them will possess/access the relevant technological knowledge to keep different bits of equipment functioning. More meks = larger knowledge pool = overall more reliable tech

Another aspect of the main "Belief" quote that I think we need to pay close attention to the exact wording of is "many captured Ork weapons and items should not work, and indeed do not work unless wielded by an Ork"

First off, is the "Many" part - it does not say all, it does not say every single item of Ork tech is only usable by Orks, just a lot of them, and I believe this closes the "Ork Hunters" loophole.
From Chapter Approved 2003:


Ork Hunters don't just stroll onto the battlefield, pick up a Shoota and start wishing real hard for it to work, capturing these weapons is the result of patrols lasting weeks - more than enough time to be able to weed out the weapons that will work for them from those that won't, retaining only the ones that will work for humans for their use. It's not like Armageddon has a shortage of Ork corpses to loot.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, so rather than believing that Orks have the innate telekinetic talent to turn a box of bolts or a particularly gun-shaped rock into a deadly firearm, we should consider the probability that Ork technology only looks crude and like it shouldn't work. Rather than making up Orky MIUs or telekinetic triggers it could just be that Ork weapons are constructed in such a way that unless they have very specific and frequent maintenance by a Mek (and as demonstrated, Meks are vital to the reliability or Ork equipment) that their weapons will simply fall apart if handled incorrectly, and "incorrectly" for Ork tech may well be "by the tiny grasping hands of a weak little 'oomie", maybe Orks hold it in a certain way required for the mechanism to work, a holdover from the genetic memory of the Meks to prevent their technology being captured and reverse engineered.

The one thing I will say about this is that the instances where stuff happens that shouldn't ( like broken guns firing) only happens during a massive WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH ( like that on Armageddon). It doesn't work if not enough Orks are present. The meme is real, orks do sometimes have guns that aren't actually more than two pieces of pipe that's able to launch a projectile ( just like pipe guns in real life ), it's just the effectiveness of such a weapon doesn't work unless it's during such a large scale ork event. On Armageddon an orc could probably shove a magazine with the wrong caliber bullets if he didn't realize in his gun would fire just the same because it's such a massive amount of ork energy present. If it was just a single ork fighting against a handful of Space Marines on a no-name planet with no other Orks around it wouldn't work. The gun won't explode instantaneously because he believes and so do all the thousands of other Orks on the planet that it's just a normal gun ( which it is) but it would probably normally fail after 1or 2 shots, instead it's able to go through 20 rounds before to finally explodes

The WAAAAAGGGHHHH acts like a lubricant for ork technology. The engine doesn't start the first time because one of the wires is loose, but the large Ork says he checked the wiring and so it turns on the next time. Because the boss is always right and because the sheer amount of ork energy around, it works.

To me orks will always be the meme-y faction, that's one of the reasons I play them. They are one of the only factions where the inhabitants are having a time of their lives because the only thing orks love is War (and dakka, and beer, and krupin humies and, man this list is actually loneger than just one, but it's the same thing to an ork.)

it's just that most people think that if you hand them a log and say it's a Canon it can fire death lasers, which it doesn't. Because it's a log.
But those absurd incidents that are memeable still happen, just not as often as most people think. For everyark gun made in such a way that would cause it to explode after a single shot, five are okay enough to work by humans.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
orks are able to overcome reality, but it takes a lot ( and I meen a lot) of Orks under specific circumstances to have that happen. There's a reason that space Hulks just show up when orks are about to go on WAAAAGGGGGHHHH

it's their energy overighting ( or telling ) reality to get in line with what they want to do, which is krump da humies. It's the power of Gork & Mork.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hopefully that gets my two cents across ( as poorly written as that whole thing may be)

The fact that the meme turns an ork mek into an ignorant cosplayer who has no genetic knowledge to build things is all the reason I need for this idiotic meme to die.

It infantilises an entire faction for cheap laughs and strips interesting things from their background like the odd boy genetic knowledge.

Gw could come out tomorrow with word of God truth for thos meme and I would still kill it with fire for the above reason. There are no upsides to its existence..it's purely there for cheap amusement and does huge damage in order to get it.

 Mrangryork wrote:
The one thing I will say about this is that the instances where stuff happens that shouldn't ( like broken guns firing) only happens during a massive WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH ( like that on Armageddon). It doesn't work if not enough Orks are present. The meme is real, orks do sometimes have guns that aren't actually more than two pieces of pipe that's able to launch a projectile ( just like pipe guns in real life ), it's just the effectiveness of such a weapon doesn't work unless it's during such a large scale ork event. On Armageddon an orc could probably shove a magazine with the wrong caliber bullets if he didn't realize in his gun would fire just the same because it's such a massive amount of ork energy present. If it was just a single ork fighting against a handful of Space Marines on a no-name planet with no other Orks around it wouldn't work. The gun won't explode instantaneously because he believes and so do all the thousands of other Orks on the planet that it's just a normal gun ( which it is) but it would probably normally fail after 1or 2 shots, instead it's able to go through 20 rounds before to finally explodes

do you mind providing an actual source for claims about broken guns firing, pipes becoming guns, weapons working with the wrong ammo, etc?
because that's the problem with the meme.. it makes a ton of claims that aren't backed up by evidence, and people keep repeating said claims. if you want to claim that the ork psychic field can do stuff like that, you need to provide evidence from actual verifiable sources.

Mad Doc Grotsnik and Charax here have provided evidence for their stance that Ork technology does not work that way. it's only polite for people attempting rebuttal to actually back their claims up, so we can weigh the evidence for and against.


----

on the issue of mekboys and their knowledge, the 2nd edition ork codex has this bit:

Although it may seem very strange to humans, these Oddboyz all possess an intuitive understanding of complex technical matters. For example, a Mekboy knows how to create engines and generators even though he has never been taught to do so. If asked where his knowledge comes from he might say that engineering and mechanics were in his blood. If the Imperium's scientists are correct then this would be almost literally true! If appears that bound up within an Ork's genetic structure are artificial DNA strands that carry knowledge. Possibly these DNA strands were implanted into the Ork metabolism by the Brain Boyz to enable the Orks to survive without their masters. As an Ork matures any latent knowledge inherent in his genetic structure starts to make itself felt, and he assumes a role in society to which he is best suited.

and then there is this bit from "Engine of Mork" (a 2013 short story. the "[...]" represents sections of story cut out for space because they don't involve the mekboy)

itskul’s beady eyes fell on Bozgat’s mechanism. The mek clutched it protectively to his chest.
‘You using that?’
‘Yes!’ said Bozgat.
Gitskul spat on the floor. ‘Alright, don’t get uppity, I’m just asking. Could do with one of them, that’s all.’
‘Thieving git,’ muttered Bozgat.
Prompted by Bozgat’s agitation, Talker started up with his jabber. ‘The birds, the birds,’ said Talker. ‘The birds of Ulsorc are of varied type, divided into forty-six separate families… Fusion is the inescapable consequence of the collapsing of mass in stellar nurseries…’
No one listened.
[...]
Bozgrat fixed his power shunts. He jiggled switches in the belly of the idol until his pusher beams intersected the precise right way, and pushed so hard a tiny bit of hot stuff collapsed in on itself and the little sun ignited in its reactor. Steam hissed from the trio of magnetic field generators that kept it stable. The grots looked nervous, but it held, and the tiny sun didn’t go anywhere it shouldn’t. That made Bozgat happy, and helped him forget about his sore mouth. He got busy with hooking it up.
‘Higher resistance is to be expected in copper compounds of lower purity…’ said Talker. Somehow, that made sense to Bozgrat, and he reached for better wire. Then he changed his mind, and began to cobble together a cooling system for the main power lines leading from the fusion plant to the secondary systems out of scattered pieces of junk.

[...]
Talker wittered on endlessly, snatches of ancient natural history and gunnery techniques tumbling out of his mouth. He bobbed backwards and forwards in the megacannon gunner’s chair. Mad as he was, he reaped a high score of Tau.
Sweating grots banged fresh shells onto a conveyor belt going out the stompa’s side behind him. They worked hard, because as much as Talker talked, he shot faster. The heat from the cannon’s barrel blazed through the shell slot.

and then there is this bit from "sanctus reach: Evil Sun Rising" (2014 novella)

"Nah", said Ugrimm pointing. "Look one just flew over, right past the secondary effulgence corona of the gravitic attraction wave." he said, using the special mek talk which even the meks didn't really understand.
Another of the enemy Stompa’s shells exploded harmlessly absorbed by Fat Mork’s energy shield.
“Oh, that’s pretty, that’s nice! At least that still works, then!” jabbered Talker. “Ah predictable outcome of a polarised muon deflection matrix.” He belched loudly. “Well orky.”
“Reactor’s up to ninety percent of tolerance, boss!” said Bozgat.
“Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork,” said Talker.
“Shut your jabber,” said Bozgat aggressively, before tweaking a few knobs and closing a few valves on it anyway. The reactor calmed down.

and from Prophets of Waagh! (2018 audio drama)

Snikgob: There we go. Got a good view from here. Now, look at that. There are red boys there. They don't look like humies. Look more like tin boys, but they is humies, just with loads of bionics. Then they's humie mek boys. They believe all sorts of weird stuff.
Talker: Cultural collapse of reorientation of belief systems in the aftermath of a renaissance can provoke magical thinking in previously rational beings.
Snikgob: What the zog are you talking about?
Talker: Beats me.

all evidence that the 2nd edition codex's assertion that mekboys are using genetically encoded technical knowledge, and comparatively recent examples at that, indicating that the 2nd edition codex's info has not been removed from the setting.

effectively mekboys are a sort of organic Standard Template Constructor, with access to immense knowledge inherited from their makers the old ones. it's just they're flawed compared to their original krork ancestors and can't pull the stuff up consciously except in very fragmented form.


i think this excerpt honestly sums up why some of the imperium are convinced it's all magic rather than just technology: emphasis is mine. from the Wrath & Glory: Church of Steel RPG supplement. (2021)

Ork Mekhoyz assemble machines with rivets, bolts, and hasty welds from whatever is at hand. They use whatever's most convenient, from the salvaged wreckage of their own defunct machines to enemy vehicles looted front the battlefield. Ork Meks are capable of something few others in the Gilead System are: innovation. They build to their current need, adapting and developing in the service of the WAAGH!! If they were systematic about recording or iterating on their achievements, there's no telling what they’d be capable of.
Ork gear doesn't need to last long, it doesn't need to look good. and it doesn't need to abide by any established principles of engineering. it Just needs to work long enough to cause carnage. Members of other Species who survive confrontations with Orks speculate that it's faith that makes their tech function: a collective, unconscious force that manifests ‘red wunz go faster’ and makes ramshackle Ork creations work just as their creators intended. It's entirely reasonable that they'd think so. Humans familiar with the painstaking rituals and orderly processes of the Adeptus Mechanicus simply can’t credit that the Orks are capable of similar levels of devastation without any of those trappings.

 Hellebore wrote:
The fact that the meme turns an ork mek into an ignorant cosplayer who has no genetic knowledge to build things is all the reason I need for this idiotic meme to die.

It infantilises an entire faction for cheap laughs and strips interesting things from their background like the odd boy genetic knowledge.

Gw could come out tomorrow with word of God truth for thos meme and I would still kill it with fire for the above reason. There are no upsides to its existence..it's purely there for cheap amusement and does huge damage in order to get it.

IMO both can be true.

Orks can have genetic memory that guides their technology, and also have a Meme Psychic Field that basically acts as a Deus Ex Machina for their technology.

I don't think it infantalizes the orks. It actually somewhat makes them even scarier. The fact that not only are they brutally strong and able to draw upon genetic memory to make terrifying contraptions, but they also have literal plot convenience holding their tech together. Especially since this mystical Waaagh field that does this can also backfire on them.

I think the "psychic field" meme background has done huge damage not only to Orks but to the setting as a whole. The idea of "belief shapes reality through warp shenanigans" has permeated the setting to the extent that it's now the justification for "faith" based miracles in the background, and we've seen that used (for example in the last book of the Heresy) to do actual magic, so essentially now humans ALSO have a latent psychic field that alters reality. (This is quite funny because the Heresy background and Primaris background have also established that humans get bigger as they increase in power and prestige, and the biggest humans are naturally the leaders of humanity as well. Humans are more Orky than ever!)

I thought the Anzion theory was really funny when I read it first, because to me it showed that the Imperium couldn't understand technology really at all, and it was a fun way to show their supremacist beliefs towards aliens.

Seeing it become accepted as the way things work in the decades since has been really depressing honestly!

To me, it epitomizes the mistake in the shift in how the setting was portrayed from 2e to 3e. We went from a fairly neutral POV where aliens were presented like the Imperium to an Imperium centric POV where everything was explained "in universe" from the Imperium POV. This was cool for immersion but I feel that some writers took stuff like the Anzion theory from the Imperial POV and just ran with it as the truth. This is a problem all over 40K that has gradually and insidiously gotten worse with time, and results in Xenos becoming parody versions of themselves and the things the Imperium erroneously believes about themselves becoming true (eg. faith based miracles).

It's made the entire setting less appealing to me, but as a long time Ork player it's especially galling when people use it to justify saying that Orks are all dumb or whatever.

The innate knowledge thing is one of many favourite aspects of Orks for me.

When it comes to making a new weapon from whatever is to hand, I see the Mek as like a Chef, putting together a dish from leftovers. Both are determined to make something, and only have relatively limited resources to do so.

The Mek however is doing most of it subconsciously. The old Orky Know Wots will guide him to some degree, letting him make the most of the materials on hand. If the scrap happens to include copper tubing, loads of wires and magnets, the Orky Know-Wots will use those to make an energy weapon, like a Kustom Mega-Blasta. If the materials for making a magnetic field coil are absent from the pile, it’ll be a Shoota, Kannon or Slugga as the bits allow.

Talker is an interesting character, as he seems to be verbalising the knowledge.in an uncontrolled way. In the quoted passages, it seems whilst he and the other Meks don’t really understand it, they do get that it’s relevant information. Which suggests to me at least all Meks, and probably all Oddboyz have an internalised voice spouting such information whenever they’re doing their thing.

So a Mek up to his elbows in a patient will on some level be thinking about the finer points of anatomy and healing. A Brewboy will be subconsciously taking stock of the ingredients available which will in turn define what they’re about to brew and so on.

Going back to the meme, it’s important to note we are offered an explanation, that being a form of telekinesis. Not powerful telekinesis. Not deliberate. It could be as simple as filling in the odd mechanical blank space. So, if a trigger isn’t actually connected to the sear, but the rest of the mechanism is there? The telekinesis is the thing allowing it to work. But, it still needs all the gubbins present.

And as we then consider Orky Tek can be shockingly complex and perhaps overdesigned for a purpose? Exactly what the telekinesis is filling in for can become a mystery to an observer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For further reading, I can recommend the Ufthakk Blackhawk novels. They contain some fascinating insights into different in-universe perspectives, which whilst often comedic are well written and presented.

I do need to get into the other novels quoted by mithril2008 though.

There’s also the short story In the warp, something stirred

This can be found in Waaargh The Orks! a very well regarded Rogue Trader book. I’ve taken and hopefully attached a pic of its first page here.

What this shows us is that Ork Tech may be stress triggered. Note that the Mek, Ushbek is well impressed by The Emperor (likely a Warlord Titan, might be a Reaver), and is then inspired to build Orky versions. And he notes it’s such a great idea (and let’s face it, it is!) that he’s surprised he never thought of it before.

That on its own strongly suggests that whilst all sorts of Tek knowledge is in his DNA, a Mek will only access what’s immediately necessary.

This is a theme repeated elsewhere. There’s a WD article about adding an Ork Dreadnought to GorkaMorka. You can read that here.

The scenario describes an existing Dread being found. The flavour text shows a Mek recognising what it is, despite never having seen one, or built this one.

There’s another flavour text I sadly can’t find, where a Mek is describing the concept of a fighter jet, doesn’t know what it is, but will go and find out. Presumably by building one.

I’ll also add snippets from the same short story, showing that Gork and Mork are real, extremely powerful and, importantly, able to actively stir up their children into a Waaagh! Not directly related to this topic, but it’s a fairly rarely seen source, and of general Orky interest. They’re on my phone so I’ll need to edit them in later. Shouldn’t be long,

Sod it, here’s a gallery link. Too hot to be fiddling.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?u=8725

Seems to me like that indicates the knowledge is triggered when it's needed. Meks don't innately know how to build Dreads/Gargants/Stompas/Fighter Jets as intact, complete designs BUT if a Mek is inspired to create something, they'll be able to subconsciously pull up the required knowledge for bipedal locomotive systems, making structurally sound titanic structures, jet engines that won't inherently explode etc. They can then apply this knowledge to their designs to build something that works. They still need something to inspire the process and kick things off, whether that inspiration is seeing an enemy war machine, a warboss commanding them to make it or vivid dreams following a night on the lash with the fungus brew. The Mek needs to consciously know what he wants to make, the Know Wots just subconsciously tell him how to do it

They also seem to take into account available resources.

In the same short story, it explains other Tribes are building their own Gargants, but some are limited to Stompas.

That I think is an underrated element of Orky Know-Wots, the logistics.

If your settlement is small, your projects will be more limited in scale and number. But, you’ll still push to create the biggest, stompiest, shootiest things your various resources will allow, including manpower as well as scrap and other raw materials.

And not unlike the STC of lore? The Orky Know-Wots will make the best use of your available materials. If you’ve access to high grade materials? Great! If not, the Know-Wots will alter the overall design to ensure the resulting machine is as robust as possible.

That would seemingly also explain the lack of uniformity.

There's been a few snippets where a mek sees something like a titan and is immediately obsessed with making one, so I think it does get triggered through seeing things and then the fragmented knowledge comes together. And sure, it's kinda weird and not perfect, but it works well enough.

I also like to imagine a mekboy weighing, sniffing and licking rocks and stuff to determine what's in them and yelling orders to the runtherds to get more of "dis rock 'ere wiff da pointy fings!" for reactors and so on.

The thing is with that first Anzion quote, is taking it out of its proper context very much changes the interpretation of it and what it was meant to be doing. If you read that section in the actual codex, Genetor Anzion is outright said to us to be a character who is unreliable as he has a tendency to speculate too much. He gives a rational explanation for the Orks, suddenly changes his mind and claims there's no explanation to contradict the things he's just said, isn't doing any sort of in-depth investigation and is merely making a basic observation where for example the vehicles he compares are only nominally (as in, not actually) the same, and even then his conclusion/theory isn't that that literally can't work and they're inherantly impossible, just sometimes they don't work properly unless used by an Ork. Some don't work, some do, it varies...which isn't that odd when they're individually made out of whatever scrap is available meaning the quality and specific mechanisms drastically differ from one to the next, and with the skill of the Mek making them being important. If they all worked perfectly all the time then that would be very odd.

It's especially worth taking into account that this is a character who, by his own admission, has underestimated Orks before, in a codex where a big part of its theming is....the Imperium underestimating Orks and claiming they can't do things they can do, because they're Orks. That section with Genetor Anzion comes across as exactly that, another Imperial Character underestimating Orks, making out they not smart enough to do things, and coming up with a theory to excuse the things showing otherwise. The community saw that character underestimating Orks (or rather didn't, because they don't bother to actually read the lore usually) and made the very same mistake, underestimating them by saying he was correct.

Yup, that's why it's such an annoying bit of meme-lore, because the playerbase is mimicking the Imperium that piece was making fun of.

I've often seen Imperium fanboys arguing that Orks are totally stupid, and sadly they have often been written that way by ignorant writers in the Black Library (who generally are disinterested in anything that's not a human by their own admission). But the original source material of the game books doesn't support that. They have a very different outlook on life to a human but they're not dumb.

For Red Wunz Go Fasta?

It could be as simple as good marketing. The Mek builds two Trukks, and his innate knowledge knows Trukk A is faster than Trukk B. And so, to efficiently market that fact? Trukk A is painted red, and likely attracts a price premium.

It could be as simple as better streamlining, or the spoiler being at a slightly better angle creating optimum downforce.

I mean, let’s look at the real world, and F1 Racing. The rules aside? The technicians there can make a teeny, tiny adjustment somewhere, increasing the car’s top speed, or handling. And that tinkering goes on throughout the season, each change ideally adding up to a noticable increase in performance. Mekboyz almost certainly do the same, entirely unconsciously.

Yes, the owning Ork may have stumped up Teef for a bigger, faster engine, and he may actually get just that. But Mek’s are fond of tinkering. They can’t help it. It’s described as a compulsion. And once the job is complete? The owner would probably want a red paintjob, to boast to all and sundry his Kart is the fastest.

A red paintjob could even make the difference, if the paint used creates a smoother surface and so reduces drag. Or, the Ork driving the vehicle has something to prove, and so drives that little bit more recklessly, taking corners that bit sharper, and so the speed boost comes from his skill and confidence, rather than Tek, and certainly not sheer willpower.

Blue being lucky could just be confirmation bias. After all, if you’re looking out for instances of good luck? You’ll find them.

Blue being lucky can also just be a superstition, it doesn't have to be true in any sense (same with Red Wunz Go Fasta). I liked the tongue in cheek nature of Red Wunz Go Fasta but less so when it's used as incontrovertible evidence of the Anzion theory.

I don’t think something being painted red is what makes it go faster.

As I speculated above, a Mek will have something understanding that whatever it is he’s just built is extra fast, and so paints it red to advertise that.

An existing Trukk or bike might be in for repairs, get souped up a bit, comes out that wee bit faster than before, and be painted red to boast of it.

A specific red paint could be formulated in such a way that it results in a near friction free surface, so when slapped on any old vehicle, it will indeed go that little bit faster.

But either way? It’s not the colour itself doing anything, other than boasting this vehicle is ded fast.

We can also consider the wider Orky society and economy. If a Mek paints something red and it doesn’t go faster? He’s gonna get beaten up, possibly killed. And so we only see genuinely faster vehicles painted red in the first place.

mithril2098 wrote:

 Mrangryork wrote:
The one thing I will say about this is that the instances where stuff happens that shouldn't ( like broken guns firing) only happens during a massive WAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH ( like that on Armageddon). It doesn't work if not enough Orks are present. The meme is real, orks do sometimes have guns that aren't actually more than two pieces of pipe that's able to launch a projectile ( just like pipe guns in real life ), it's just the effectiveness of such a weapon doesn't work unless it's during such a large scale ork event. On Armageddon an orc could probably shove a magazine with the wrong caliber bullets if he didn't realize in his gun would fire just the same because it's such a massive amount of ork energy present. If it was just a single ork fighting against a handful of Space Marines on a no-name planet with no other Orks around it wouldn't work. The gun won't explode instantaneously because he believes and so do all the thousands of other Orks on the planet that it's just a normal gun ( which it is) but it would probably normally fail after 1or 2 shots, instead it's able to go through 20 rounds before to finally explodes

do you mind providing an actual source for claims about broken guns firing, pipes becoming guns, weapons working with the wrong ammo, etc?
because that's the problem with the meme.. it makes a ton of claims that aren't backed up by evidence, and people keep repeating said claims. if you want to claim that the ork psychic field can do stuff like that, you need to provide evidence from actual verifiable sources.

Mad Doc Grotsnik and Charax here have provided evidence for their stance that Ork technology does not work that way. it's only polite for people attempting rebuttal to actually back their claims up, so we can weigh the evidence for and against.


----

on the issue of mekboys and their knowledge, the 2nd edition ork codex has this bit:

Although it may seem very strange to humans, these Oddboyz all possess an intuitive understanding of complex technical matters. For example, a Mekboy knows how to create engines and generators even though he has never been taught to do so. If asked where his knowledge comes from he might say that engineering and mechanics were in his blood. If the Imperium's scientists are correct then this would be almost literally true! If appears that bound up within an Ork's genetic structure are artificial DNA strands that carry knowledge. Possibly these DNA strands were implanted into the Ork metabolism by the Brain Boyz to enable the Orks to survive without their masters. As an Ork matures any latent knowledge inherent in his genetic structure starts to make itself felt, and he assumes a role in society to which he is best suited.

and then there is this bit from "Engine of Mork" (a 2013 short story. the "[...]" represents sections of story cut out for space because they don't involve the mekboy)

itskul’s beady eyes fell on Bozgat’s mechanism. The mek clutched it protectively to his chest.
‘You using that?’
‘Yes!’ said Bozgat.
Gitskul spat on the floor. ‘Alright, don’t get uppity, I’m just asking. Could do with one of them, that’s all.’
‘Thieving git,’ muttered Bozgat.
Prompted by Bozgat’s agitation, Talker started up with his jabber. ‘The birds, the birds,’ said Talker. ‘The birds of Ulsorc are of varied type, divided into forty-six separate families… Fusion is the inescapable consequence of the collapsing of mass in stellar nurseries…’
No one listened.
[...]
Bozgrat fixed his power shunts. He jiggled switches in the belly of the idol until his pusher beams intersected the precise right way, and pushed so hard a tiny bit of hot stuff collapsed in on itself and the little sun ignited in its reactor. Steam hissed from the trio of magnetic field generators that kept it stable. The grots looked nervous, but it held, and the tiny sun didn’t go anywhere it shouldn’t. That made Bozgat happy, and helped him forget about his sore mouth. He got busy with hooking it up.
‘Higher resistance is to be expected in copper compounds of lower purity…’ said Talker. Somehow, that made sense to Bozgrat, and he reached for better wire. Then he changed his mind, and began to cobble together a cooling system for the main power lines leading from the fusion plant to the secondary systems out of scattered pieces of junk.

[...]
Talker wittered on endlessly, snatches of ancient natural history and gunnery techniques tumbling out of his mouth. He bobbed backwards and forwards in the megacannon gunner’s chair. Mad as he was, he reaped a high score of Tau.
Sweating grots banged fresh shells onto a conveyor belt going out the stompa’s side behind him. They worked hard, because as much as Talker talked, he shot faster. The heat from the cannon’s barrel blazed through the shell slot.

and then there is this bit from "sanctus reach: Evil Sun Rising" (2014 novella)

"Nah", said Ugrimm pointing. "Look one just flew over, right past the secondary effulgence corona of the gravitic attraction wave." he said, using the special mek talk which even the meks didn't really understand.
Another of the enemy Stompa’s shells exploded harmlessly absorbed by Fat Mork’s energy shield.
“Oh, that’s pretty, that’s nice! At least that still works, then!” jabbered Talker. “Ah predictable outcome of a polarised muon deflection matrix.” He belched loudly. “Well orky.”
“Reactor’s up to ninety percent of tolerance, boss!” said Bozgat.
“Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork,” said Talker.
“Shut your jabber,” said Bozgat aggressively, before tweaking a few knobs and closing a few valves on it anyway. The reactor calmed down.

and from Prophets of Waagh! (2018 audio drama)

Snikgob: There we go. Got a good view from here. Now, look at that. There are red boys there. They don't look like humies. Look more like tin boys, but they is humies, just with loads of bionics. Then they's humie mek boys. They believe all sorts of weird stuff.
Talker: Cultural collapse of reorientation of belief systems in the aftermath of a renaissance can provoke magical thinking in previously rational beings.
Snikgob: What the zog are you talking about?
Talker: Beats me.

all evidence that the 2nd edition codex's assertion that mekboys are using genetically encoded technical knowledge, and comparatively recent examples at that, indicating that the 2nd edition codex's info has not been removed from the setting.

effectively mekboys are a sort of organic Standard Template Constructor, with access to immense knowledge inherited from their makers the old ones. it's just they're flawed compared to their original krork ancestors and can't pull the stuff up consciously except in very fragmented form.


i think this excerpt honestly sums up why some of the imperium are convinced it's all magic rather than just technology: emphasis is mine. from the Wrath & Glory: Church of Steel RPG supplement. (2021)

Ork Mekhoyz assemble machines with rivets, bolts, and hasty welds from whatever is at hand. They use whatever's most convenient, from the salvaged wreckage of their own defunct machines to enemy vehicles looted front the battlefield. Ork Meks are capable of something few others in the Gilead System are: innovation. They build to their current need, adapting and developing in the service of the WAAGH!! If they were systematic about recording or iterating on their achievements, there's no telling what they’d be capable of.
Ork gear doesn't need to last long, it doesn't need to look good. and it doesn't need to abide by any established principles of engineering. it Just needs to work long enough to cause carnage. Members of other Species who survive confrontations with Orks speculate that it's faith that makes their tech function: a collective, unconscious force that manifests ‘red wunz go faster’ and makes ramshackle Ork creations work just as their creators intended. It's entirely reasonable that they'd think so. Humans familiar with the painstaking rituals and orderly processes of the Adeptus Mechanicus simply can’t credit that the Orks are capable of similar levels of devastation without any of those trappings.

I don't have exact specific incidences unfortunately ( I'll be the first to admit that), but going back to my pipe gun explanation, the pipe gun worked without the Orks, and pipe guns don't need orks around, they exist in real life and are used primarily in third world countries. A piece of pipe with a nail or other sharp object at the rear and the other piece of pipe with a diameter of a bullet you want to shoot ( typically 12 gauge shotgun shells) when you slam the two pieces of pipe together the one piece of pipe acts as a barrel while the other one strikes the bullet and helps contain the gases from the rear. Add 2 handles to make it easier to fire. These guns are easily prone to fail. But because of all the ork energy it doesn't fail for a while. Gaz shouldn't have come back to life after being decapitated and getting struck with psychic lightning but he did because all the Orks believed he could come back and wasn't dead. For all the amazing resilience Orks have one does not come back to life after being decapitated. A head sewn onto a body after it has been dead for days ( completely dead mind you) just doesn't spring back to life without the power of the Orks. It wasn't the technology that saved him it was the WAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHH energy and the power of Gork & Mork. That technology was built out of scrap metal with fiddly wires everywhere. If a human was decapitated and then had his head sewn onto a body after being dead for several days and struck with psychic lightning with the same technology it wouldn't have worked. but because it was such an ork ( and the most important one that the gods regularly spoke to) it did. granted this is all told in gazghkull thraka prophet of the WAAAGH! by Nate Crowley, and told from makari's perspective after being captured by an inquisitor, and Orks aren't always the most reliable people to get your sources from.

I also believe there was an instance in a Ciaphas Cain novel where Cain used an orc truck and noted that the gun mounted on top worked better when a fierce group of Orks were around it, but I can't unfortunately find it (google search isn't cooperating). so take that incident as you will as I can't find information on it.


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Note that this pipe gun explanation for how the WAAAGGGHHH works is my own creation. There are no sources that indicate " pipe guns" have been used by Orcs. But given that they were both on the same crude technology level of most ork tec it's still applies. I was just using pipe guns specifically as an example as it is a real world weapon that functions, just a very crude one.


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Here is one such weapon on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:APOCU410.jpg


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And here is the exact quote on Wikipedia's section for pipe guns, just so you guys can see what I'm talking about.


Pipe guns were first seen in the Philippines during World War II.[17] The "paliuntod" is a type of improvised shotgun commonly used by guerrillas and the joint American and Filipino soldiers who remained behind after Douglas MacArthur's withdrawal. Made of two pieces of pipe that fit snugly together, the "paliuntod" were simple, single shot guns. These pipe guns are still in use by both criminals and rebels in the Philippines.[18][19]

In 1946, pipe guns were patented in the United States by Iliff D. "Rich" Richardson, who fought with the Filipino insurgents during the Japanese occupation.[17][20] Made by "Richardson Industries" as the "Model R5 Philippine Guerrilla Gun", these 12 gauge shotguns sold for $7 at the time.[17]

Improvised versions are made by using two pipes and an end-cap; they usually fire shotgun shells. To fire the gun, the user inserts a shotgun shell into the smaller diameter pipe, places the smaller pipe into the larger diameter pipe, and forcefully slides it back until the shell's primer makes contact with a fixed firing pin located inside the end-cap.[4][5] Other improved versions use improvised detachable magazines.[21]


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You guys can dismiss my argument for my explanation, but also know that this is a discussion and not an argument. I just thought it would be fun to share my perspective, and hopefully you see it that way too.

Not trying to start any fights here or anything.

Also thank you for taking your time to read my explanations and coming up with counter arguments, i really enjoy good discussions like this!

It’s well established that Orks absolutely can survive decapitation.

Ufthak Blackhawk had his decapitated head stitched on to his former Nobz’ body, for instance.

Sure, it’s a time sensitive matter, but it is something they can survive if there’s a Doc nearby, and as proven above, a suitable donor body if yours is all mashed up. Faith has nothing to do with it, it’s all just their ridiculous biology.

In fact, I think there’s even an example of a head being stitched on to another Ork as a temporary measure? I may be imagining that one though.


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Ork Surgery is pretty insane. And even extends, if you’ve a Bad Dok on your hands, to Squig Brain Transplants. And even Squig piloted Dreadnoughts.

It’s even possible to end up with a patchwork Ork. If they lose limbs in different battles, there’s only opportunity and available donor parts to see the head as the only original part.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s well established that Orks absolutely can survive decapitation.

Ufthak Blackhawk had his decapitated head stitched on to his former Nobz’ body, for instance.

Sure, it’s a time sensitive matter, but it is something they can survive if there’s a Doc nearby, and as proven above, a suitable donor body if yours is all mashed up. Faith has nothing to do with it, it’s all just their ridiculous biology.

In fact, I think there’s even an example of a head being stitched on to another Ork as a temporary measure? I may be imagining that one though.


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Ork Surgery is pretty insane. And even extends, if you’ve a Bad Dok on your hands, to Squig Brain Transplants. And even Squig piloted Dreadnoughts.

It’s even possible to end up with a patchwork Ork. If they lose limbs in different battles, there’s only opportunity and available donor parts to see the head as the only original part.

yes, but wasn't it several days and not just a few hours? Also doesn't it require the ork head to still be alive?
I thought that was the whole reason why they zapped him with that energy in the book.
Gaz was totally dead, unlike most other instances of Orks getting decapitated.
I can't remember which War boss it was that gaz decapitated twice before he finally said yes to joining him, but gas instantly put his head back on and held it on his neck until it regrew just a short while later. The difference between these two incidents is the timing and the fact that the book specifically describes gaz as dead, not merely just decapitated.


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"... The boss was dead. More than that though he was a patient. And patience never got to say in what happened during surgery. medikal effix, the humans called it"

To me the idea of meks having genetic memory that allows them to build trucks, guns, dreads etc like a beaver builds a dam is one of the coolest aspects of the orks.

The whole "belief field" thing I think was just one misguided Imperial hypothesis as they did not understand how the orks work. That it has become such a huge part of the lore (or a least perception of the lore) is frustrating.

Even if the observation is correct? The Mekboy’s knowledge would presumably include some understanding of the limits and application of Orky telekinesis, and so build with that (to us) mystery factor included.

So again, a lump of vaguely gun shaped metal is only going to work as a club. But, the mechanism of a Shoota could very well rely on low level, instinctual telekinesis to operate. Not by accident, but by design.

See my earlier argument that psychically triggered weapons are more common that we might initially think, just not traditionally associated with Orks. Which again demonstrates the issue is one of external arrogance about what Orks are capable of.

And let’s be honest. The Orky capacity to surprise is one of their greatest assets. Whether it’s Kommandos existing at all, let alone being competent infiltrators, sudden Tellyporta attacks, hotwiring a sealed Webway portal or any number of other nasty surprises? They’re really good at catching you with your pants down, all the more so as it very much seems their genetically encoded knowledge has some form of answer to any problem, and comes to the fore as and when it’s needed. And by no means will the next warband use the same solution to the same problem.

I think there are three different but related ideas in play:
1. Meks have an inherent knowledge of engineering principles inherited from the Old Ones
2. Orks, like eldar (and unlike humans), use psytech ubiquitously and don't differentiate it from "mundane" technology
3. The Waaagh as a religious movement that creates a psychic gestalt (analogous to SoB/BT miracles, Chaos cultist blessings, eldar exarchs etc)

People often forget that the Waaagh is a holy war that orks are called on to fight by Gork and Mork, and is not merely any armed violence that orks engage in. The analogy to miracles in service to the Emperor makes more sense in that respect.

As to red trucks being faster, it should be remembered that mechanically speaking that only increased maximum speed by 4% and that the majority of orks still don't paint their trucks red (though it is presumably the most popular color). Nor do most orks paint themselves blue. There are buildings in real-life that don't have a 13th floor because it was considered "unlucky", that shouldn't be exaggerated into some universal human fear of the number 13. It's a quirk, not some core principle of their culture.

The Red Wunz thing is quite possibly a case of establish that it’s ded fasta first, then paint it red, so every other git knows it’s ded fasta.

It could be that any red paint mixed up to paint a vehicle has a smoother finish to help reduce drag. Or that any base formula with that finish quality is then made red.

Here, have another snippet from Waaargh The Orks! This time from the background info on Painboyz. Note that despite some trails (probably quite a lot, because it sounds funny if nothing else), painting a Grot red doesn’t make them any faster.

That I’d argue goes to support that just painting something red has no impact. And so there has to be more to it, which I won’t repeat my existing speculations on here.

 Crimson wrote:

To me the idea of meks having genetic memory that allows them to build trucks, guns, dreads etc like a beaver builds a dam is one of the coolest aspects of the orks.

The whole "belief field" thing I think was just one misguided Imperial hypothesis as they did not understand how the orks work. That it has become such a huge part of the lore (or a least perception of the lore) is frustrating.

they for sure have it in my personal opinion. It just makes so much sense for why they're able to make so much stuff. And the explanation for why ork tec starts to get more advanced and better the bigger the WAAAAGGGGHHHH is because that energy unlocks more in their genetic "database" for new inventions. Orcs didn't all of a sudden invent teleportation devices that could send them through enemy Shields, they just remembered how to upscale all of that Tech because at that point all the collecting psychic energy allowed them too. The Orks are starting to evolve back into their more advanced selves because there are so many of them around.


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I think the whole painting stuff red has to do more with cultural beliefs. Just like how some ancient races in the real world would sacrifice people to their gods in order to end droughts or have a good harvest, to the Orks painting stuff red makes it faster. It's more of a cultural thing but I'm sure it does actually make some of the stuff slightly faster or better if there's a big ork Invasion around. But it's not like painting something red all of a sudden makes it go 60 miles an hour faster.

I really don’t intend to be rude here, but that’s just not how it’s portrayed in the background.

A planet can be “Orkiformed” by just a few spores. And a nascent Ork civilisation grows in a relatively predictable manner.

First come Squigs, then Snots and Grots (possibly at the same time? I’ll read up on that tomorrow), then the Orks.

With their own tree of life established? Oddboyz begin to manifest. First Runtherdz and Pigdoks, the better to wrangle the Squigs, Snots and Grots. Painboyz appear to be next, to better patch up the many Boyz. Meks come next.

But, each stage of societal development appears to be stress triggered. Only manifesting when the growing society needs them.

I demonstrated earlier that whilst Meks have access to near unbelievable levels of knowledge? It’s still stress triggered. In theory, every single Mek has the knowledge of how to build a Stompa or the various flavours of Gargant. But, they don’t do so until some survived life event requires such ability as a solution.

And so? The bigger the Waaaagh! the more stressors and problems it encounters, which means more complex situations for its various Oddboyz to overcome.

But, I do agree that certain applications of existing Teknologee are part of that.

For instance, Bubble Chukkas. Those are an adaptation of Orky Forcefield Teknologee. Except rather than being used for defence, you (Rogue Trader era at least for clarity), throw the resulting field around an enemy, and invert it. So the protecty side is facing them.

The resultant inverted Forcefield is entirely invisible, so unless they’ve clever sensors, the enemy unit doesn’t know it’s there…..until they open fire. Because when they do? The shots deflect off the field, and ideally kill the unit that shot them.

In theory? Whilst the exact dimension of the resultant field vary (most likely due to the Grot gunners than the gun itself), it could be scaled up to the point you could lob such Forcefield bubbles at enemy ships, and deflect its own firepower right back at it.

I daresay a well watched over battery of Bubble Chukkas with an attendant Mek could even calibrate it to closely match the shape of the target for even greater, and even more hilarious, carnage. But thankfully for the Orks’ many foes? Even Mekboyz and Runtherdz only occasionally have sufficient attention spans for such fine tuning jobs.

Indeed, it’s the anarchic nature of Orks and their society that is their weakness. Short attention spans, easily distracted by really big explosions or particularly funny acts of violence, or for Oddboyz in particular sudden inspiration from the prior examples. All combine to prevent them maximising their level of menace.

Until Ghaz. I can’t remember which book it comes from (maybe Xenology, which I’ve a copy of so can check tomorrow) postulates to be a hitherto unseen Oddboy. And a terrifying one. An actual Leader Oddboy. One with a bit of each Oddboy knowledge base, sufficient to allow them to really understand the sheer potential of their underlings.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I really don’t intend to be rude here, but that’s just not how it’s portrayed in the background.

Not at all!

also good explanation.

This whole discussion reminds me that I need to do a lot more reading. Maybe get one of those Warhammer Plus subscription thingies that lets me read all the old magazines.


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Never heard of a bubble chucker. Sounds really cool though! ( insert the more you know thing here)

I was referring specifically to the Mega-Tellyshokka in my "explanation" ( although to be fair it isn't much of one in comparison to yours LOL)

The bubble Chucker brings up a lot more funny scenarios for my little stories. I can imagine many a fun scenario were some Gretchen used it on some Orks

A lot of what I’m sharing comes from Rogue Trader, and sadly isn’t in the Vault. And I’m going to be optimistic and add yet to that.

But this is the purpose of this thread. To take Memeified misunderstandings, and present canonical sources to help spread the “truth” of an entirely made up universe of glorious nonsense.

And, as we’ve seen with some confirmed speculation from myself and others? Try to rationalise the blanks, based on what we’re told by the original writers of the background,

Mostly because as I hope this thread has shown? Said “truth” is genuinely far more interesting

Tomorrow (I’ve been using that word a lot today….) I’ll also share some piccies of other flavour text from Rogue Trader, which I think really help set out the Orky mindset and kultur.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A lot of what I’m sharing comes from Rogue Trader, and sadly isn’t in the Vault. And I’m going to be optimistic and add yet to that.

But this is the purpose of this thread. To take Memeified misunderstandings, and present canonical sources to help spread the “truth” of an entirely made up universe of glorious nonsense.

And, as we’ve seen with some confirmed speculation from myself and others? Try to rationalise the blanks, based on what we’re told by the original writers of the background,

Mostly because as I hope this thread has shown? Said “truth” is genuinely far more interesting

Tomorrow (I’ve been using that word a lot today….) I’ll also share some piccies of other flavour text from Rogue Trader, which I think really help set out the Orky mindset and kultur.

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also Doc, I was thinking about picking up one of the older ork codexes for around $15 for some more reading material on orks, i was wondering which one you thought had the most lore stuff. I've heard some people say that 4th edition does and I thought I'd ask your opinion.