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O.k., this has been going back and forth  a few times at our local gaming club and I wanted to solicite your opinion.

Now the rules for LoS and ruins are in Cityfight (and I am paraphrasing) you cannot fire past 6" into them and you cannot fire through them.

Here is the issue, most Ruins are simply that, ruins. Meaning you do not have a clear defined structure in which to include what is and what isn't ruin. For example, say the ruin is in a U shape, where all the damage is through the center of the building. Now can somebody shot at something they have actual line of sight through but is passes through holes in the building, of holes through a platform, or through the center of the U of the ruins.

I will hold my opinion until I get some responces.

Please read page 9 of the Cities of Death rulebook under the heading 'City Ruin Footprints'. It should more than adequately answer your question.

Posted By Mahu on 09/26/2006 8:55 AM

Now the rules for LoS and ruins are in Cityfight (and I am paraphrasing) you cannot fire past 6" into them and you cannot fire through them.

Here is the issue, most Ruins are simply that, ruins. Meaning you do not have a clear defined structure in which to include what is and what isn't ruin. For example, say the ruin is in a U shape, where all the damage is through the center of the building. Now can somebody shot at something they have actual line of sight through but is passes through holes in the building, of holes through a platform, or through the center of the U of the ruins.

I will hold my opinion until I get some responces.

I'm confused, are you asking if you can shoot through something you can't shoot through?

Maybe you just aren't clear enough, is the U shape like two towers next to each other or is it laying down like two forks going around a central flat area? Are you asking if you can shoot through the uprights? I would say yes to this until the ruin is destroyed, when it stops being the actual profile.

I am only trying to explain an arguement that is kept being used against me, and hopeing somebody will come up with a good arguement against it.

My personal interpretation has been that you can't shoot through ruin period. But here is a visual explanation of the rules debate I have been having with a few people.

This is a ruin from a models eye view looking at the target signaled by the "T":

_
__
___T__

Usually the model is looking at it from a higher level.

Now, myself and others have been pounding the fact that you cannpt shoot through a ruin, even if no physical representation of the ruin block LOS. But some people aren't listening and I am hoping people will tell me that I am not crazy.

Replace the word ruin with the word forest in every part of your question. Does the answer become more clear? Ruins are area terrain. They are one of the few things in the game that actualy have a size catagory and line of sight is based on that rather than on what you can actualy see. So models on one side of the level 2 ruins can not see any size 2 targets on the other side. Models eye view is irrelevent for shooting though them.

Close, but no cookie.

Ruins in CoD are Area Terrain but do NOT have a Size category.

LOS over the building is determined by using true LOS over the tallest point of the building.


The footprint of the building gives you horizontal dimensions. The height of the building gives you vertical dimensions. Everything inside those bounds is Area Terrain.

Actually they would indeed have a Size Category. I see nothing to indicate that they do not. Just because there is an exception to the rules for seeing over the ruins when they are physically placed higher than the intervening ruins does not mean that they don't have a Size Category and that you would never use those categories. You would use them for models on 'ground level'.

The CoD LOS rules never refer to the model needing to be higher than the intervening ruins... they just need to be 'high enough' to see a model on the other side. A model on the ground that can see a Monolith (for example) on the other side of the building is 'high enough' to see the model on the other side of the building.

You draw LOS over the ruin by a model's eye view. No distinction is made between a model on a building and a model on the ground. So, yes, while it never expressly states that the building doesn't have a Size, you would have no reason that I can see to ever actually use it.

Posted By Ghaz on 09/26/2006 9:50 PM
Actually they would indeed have a Size Category. I see nothing to indicate that they do not. Just because there is an exception to the rules for seeing over the ruins when they are physically placed higher than the intervening ruins does not mean that they don't have a Size Category and that you would never use those categories. You would use them for models on 'ground level'.

Ghaz, you are incorrect. Page 9 of Cities of Death says:

"City ruins are area terrain, although they do not have a set size (see Line of Sight on page 11)."


I'd certainly think a size category is a "set size" (I don't know what else that could be in reference to).

So would the answer be a city ruin is area terrain with a "size" of its highest level?

So in my last post you couldn't shot at "T" because even though you have actual LOS, it is still area terrain, similar to that you might be able to have actual LOS to a model behind a forest.

And page 11 states that the normal line of sight rules apply with the only listed exception is if the model is high enough to see over a city ruin to a model on the far side. Normal line of sight rules for Area Terrain include Size Categories.

"So would the answer be a city ruin is area terrain with a "size" of its highest level?"

Kind of. It would probably be best to just not even think of them as having a "size" at all. Since the 40K area terrain and COD area terrain seem to be opposed on the ability to see over them in certain situtions.

If a guardsman can see a chaos marine over a low piece of ruin terrain he could take the shot. If the piece of terrain was re-categorized as forest the guardsman would lose the shot since models cannot see each other through any distance of terrain that they are on either side of.

From my understanding a size 3 forest would block LOS to a monolith as well since they are both the same size category. This would occur even if the modelled trees were shorter than the monolith and the firing models could clearly see the vehicle. If the terrain was a city ruin the shot could be taken because the size category of the target doesn't matter, only the fact that LOS can be drawn OVER the terrain.

"So in my last post you couldn't shot at "T" because even though you have actual LOS, it is still area terrain, similar to that you might be able to have actual LOS to a model behind a forest."

The problem with your question is that it almost requires a photograph or something because of the vague way area terrain is handled in COD (in terms of city ruins). From my understanding here's what I can offer though:

A guardsman trying to fire at a chaos marine that is 6" or deeper within a ruin can NOT be fired at even if true LOS can be drawn between the models. This occurs regardless of the height of the modelled ruins.

If the chaos space marine was on the other side of the ruins and the ruins were low enough to allow LOS between the two models then the shot CAN be taken. The silliness becomes apparent here since models that are seperated by ruins are more likely to be targeted than models that face each other when one or both are within the same ruins.

Again, this is from my own understanding of the COD book and my own limited usage of area terrain in normal 40K games.

The problem with your arguement is that the CoD rules specifically state you can not shoot through a ruin.

So the question becomes, what exactly is through a ruin. Are buildings "magic cylander lite" or are they defined by the walls, or are the defined by how tall they are.

Again, I hold the notion that you can't shoot through a Ruin period, meaninng if you are drawing line of sight past the profile of the ruin, you can't shoot it. The only exception I see the CoD book making is if your target and you are on levels higher than the intervening terrain.

The model doesn't have to be at a higher level. The model just has to be able to see over the ruin to his target.

Through a ruin would be a model trying to target a model that is physically smaller than the ruin and is on the other side of the ruin.

Over a ruin is when the model is targeting a model that is physically taller than the ruin or is at a height that lets it be seen over the ruin.

Whynot discuss the terrain with your opponent BEFORE the game so that everyone is clear on how it works...it's what I do when I go to play at the game stores so we don't have to deal with silly arguements later.

Without that, LOS rules are spelled out in the COD book. The ruins will have a "footprint" for the area that it affects. The sides of the ruins is what you'd use for height.

Personally, the way we do it, if you have a model shooting from a higher perch into the terrain, we use actual LOS to represent that models "advantage" of finding a higher vantage point. Makes sense to all of us

Quick example(s):

X <---space marine
----------
|........ | <----Ruin
----------
O <----- Ork

They can't shoot at each other, ruin is blocking LOS



X <----- SM
----------
|... O.. | <--- Ruin + Ork
----------

They can shoot each other since there is not more than 6" of ruin in the way.




----------
| ...X ...| <--- SM on 2nd level of ruin
----------

----------
| ...O.. | <--- Ork on base level inside the ruin
----------

Based off actual line of sight is the way we play it.

Posted By Ghaz on 09/27/2006 8:25 AM

And page 11 states that the normal line of sight rules apply with the only listed exception is if the model is high enough to see over a city ruin to a model on the far side. Normal line of sight rules for Area Terrain include Size Categories.

Huh? That makes absolutely no sense. The rules state that Ruins have no set size yet you want to claim that they have a set size?

 

Again, from page 11 of Cities of Death:


So what is the normal way for a model to determine if it can see over a 'city ruin', ie Area Terrain. You compare size categories. So if page 9 tells you that city ruins don't have a 'set size', then how do you determine if models on the ground level can see over them or not using the 'normal line of sight rules' for Area Terrain?

You don't use the normal line of sight rules for Area Terrain to see over ruins, since seeing over the ruin is the situation specifically listed as an exception to the normal rules.

You use true LOS to see over the ruin, as it says immediately after the part you just quoted.

No. It only says that you use true line of sight if the model is high enough to see over a city ruin to model on the far side. It does not say that you use true line of sight at any other time. So if the model was not high enough to see over a city ruin, the rules tell you that "... The normal line of sight rules apply to city ruins." In order to do so, you must have a set size category for those city ruins.

"No. It only says that you use true line of sight if the model is high enough to see over a city ruin to model on the far side. It does not say that you use true line of sight at any other time."

Uh... yes...

It does not say that the model must be higher than ground level in order to see over the building. It merely says that the model can see over the building if it is high enough to do so.

If you can see over a building from ground level, then you are high enough to see over the building.


How do you determine whether the model is high enough to see its target over the building? As per that section you quoted the first part of, you use true LOS.

If the model can't physically see over the building, then the Sizes are completely irrelevant anyway... if he couldn't see with true LOS, he's not going to be able to see with Sizes either, since buildings are Size 3 under the normal rules.

And where does it say whether or not a model can see over a building if it's NOT taller? Simple. As the rules say, you use the 'normal' line of sight rules which require that you use size categories.


Except you're maiking assumptions, and that just does not cut it. Provide an actual rule to support your claims that a Size Two or Size Three model can not see over Area Terrain that the rules claim do not have a set size.

Ghaz,

How can you claim that ruins have a set size category when I have presented you with a direct quotation from the rules that says they DO NOT HAVE A SET SIZE?

Seriously, why are you continuing? You can argue any other point of how LOS is drawn over ruins, but the fact is we know 100% for sure that ruins do not have a set size.

You asked for a quote from the rules originally and I gave it to you. Now you want to ignore the rules quote because you don't like it? I just don't understand why you are continuing this.

Posted By yakface on 09/27/2006 10:23 PM

Ghaz,

How can you claim that ruins have a set size category when I have presented you with a direct quotation from the rules that says they DO NOT HAVE A SET SIZE?

Seriously, why are you continuing? You can argue any other point of how LOS is drawn over ruins, but the fact is we know 100% for sure that ruins do not have a set size.

You asked for a quote from the rules originally and I gave it to you. Now you want to ignore the rules quote because you don't like it? I just don't understand why you are continuing this.

And again, I ask you to explain how you see over a city ruin you're not taller than 'normally' if you don't have size categories.  I never said that the rules don't say what you're claiming.  Yes, page 9 does say that city ruins do not have a set size.  However you keep ignoring the fact that page 11 states that normal line of sight rules apply for city ruins unless the model is physically high enough to see over them. 

So I'm still waiting on the answer to the question I asked.  How do you determine whether or not a model can see over city ruins (ie, Area Terrain) without using size classifications?  It doesn't matter if page 9 says city ruins don't have a set size if it means you can not figure out whether or not you can see over them. 

I already answered that. A normal size infantry model can see a monstrous creature behind a piece of city ruins if the two actual miniatures on the table have LOS to each other over the model of the terrain. The moment the monstrous creature enters the terrain it will be considered out of LOS if it is more than 6" away from the edge nearest the infantry sized model. Sounds stupid, but that's how I read the RAW.

So when looking over terrain we use actual characteristics of the miniatures on the table, but when dealing with units within ruins we start to skew away from that and use the game rules. I'm still on the fence about whether or not GW actually wnts us to use size categories for units within ruins (or if it really matters), but it seems pretty clear to me about what to do when tracing LOS over the ruins.

And what you have not answered is where does it say that a model is out of line of sight if it is behind Area Terrain that does not have a set size. There is an exception to the line of sight rules for Area Terrain if the model can see over the intervening terrain, but there is no other exceptions. If the model can not see over the intervening terrain, you use the 'normal' line of sight rules which are dependent on size classifications for Area Terrain.

So please stop answering a question that no one has asked and answer the real question. How do you determine if a model can or can not see over Area Terrain if 1) the Area Terrain has no set size and 2) the model is not high enough to 'see' over the intervening terrain.

"How do you determine if a model can or can not see over Area Terrain if 1) the Area Terrain has no set size and 2) the model is not high enough to 'see' over the intervening terrain."

You've answered your own question...if the model is not high enough to see over the terrain, it can't see the target, per COD rules

"And where does it say whether or not a model can see over a building if it's NOT taller? "

Uh, what...?

You want a rules quote that says that you can't see something if you can't see it?

Seriously?




"How do you determine if a model can or can not see over Area Terrain if 1) the Area Terrain has no set size and 2) the model is not high enough to 'see' over the intervening terrain."

We're not talking about Area Terrain. We're talking about a specific TYPE of Area Terrain, namely Ruins in CoD.

Under the rules on page 11, despite them acting as Area Terrain in other ways, you do NOT use Size to determine whether the model can see over the Ruins. You just use true LOS.

Either the model can see over the Ruin, or it can not. If it can see over the Ruin, then it is high enough to see over the Ruin and you have LOS. If it can not see over the Ruin, then it is not high enough to see over the Ruin, and you do not have LOS. You don't suddenly revert to a different system because you don't have LOS under the first one.

And again, it's all academic anyway, since if the model is not high enough to see over the Ruin using true LOS, and that makes you revert ot the normal rules (for some ungodly reason) then it's still not going to be able to see over a SIZE 3 terrain feature anyway. So either way YOU HAVE NO LOS.

Ghaz: "So please stop answering a question that no one has asked and answer the real question."

Appologies! I thought we were talking about city ruins. Everyone knows that THE REAL question is as follows:

When Michael Knight drives KIT into the back of that 18 wheeler as it travels down the highway how does he not rocket through the front of the cab the second the rear tires of the Camaro hit the ramp?

The answer of course is that KIT was a mixture of american steel, Oni demon magic, and an ork wartrukk making it able to go from 75 MPH to 0 in .56 seconds. This is also why David hasselhoff had to be cloned multiple times since even though the car would stop he would be mercilessly hurtled through the windshield. It all turned out for the best though since we have German Hoff, Beach Hoff, and the all new multiple pose Action Hoff (with optional dramatic head whip action).

Again, sorry to go OT with all of this cityfight nonsense. I'm glad we could clear up the real question.

Hey, Ghaz, I just want to clarify, so I am sure I understand your position.

Would BOTH shooter and target have to be higher than/above the CoD ruin, or just one of them? If only one of them were higher than/above the CoD ruin, could both draw LoS to each other, or could only the one who is higher draw the LoS?

Sal.

Again, the rules say that you use the 'normal' rules for line of sight. That is not the 'normal' line of sight rules for determining if you can see over Area Terrain. So tell us how you came to that conclusion.


And again, what do you base this on? Where is this ever stated in the Cities of Death rulebook? Because page 11 clearly states that you are wrong when they tell you that the normal line of sight rules apply to city ruins.


Now that you're done acting like a troll, would you like to contribute to this thread and answer the question instead of repeating something that we all already agree on?


From the way it is worded, yes they would both have to be higher than or above the city ruins. Otherwise you would be forced to see through the ruins, not over it.