Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Have not posted in ages due to an insane work schedule. But I found some information that I thought the Dakka community would really appreciate. I took a quick look around but didnt see it posted anywhere, if this is old news or has already been posted, i apologize in advance and please lock the post.

http://community.livejournal.com/rhino_58/55751.html#cutid1

It is a statistical breakdown of the performance of each army represented in the UK grand tournament.

You can read it for yourslelf, but i was interested in hearing what some of the dakka minds thought about it. I have always thought the DE were a very powerful list, but they finished first overall in terms of statistical effectiveness, that is pretty immpresive!

No surprise with mech Tau coming in second, or that chaos performed strongly, and i agree with the writer's comments that if IW were on their own, they would have ranked much higher.

But what really shocked me, was how poorly SM's did on the whole, especially considering how much people make arguments about them being overpowered. I suppose though that that has as much to do with a large amount of mediocre players using the army and people gearing up to fight them as anything else.

another huge surprise was the DH's coming in so high in the ranks. That really shocked me as in my experiance, the army does not fair so well, especially not in  tourny settings.

And, of course, the poor orks and IG did crap. I was a little shocked the WH's didnt do better, they are a tough army from my experiance but obviously not so in the UK GT setting.

At any rate, what do you all make of these statistics? Pretty interesting at the least.

Check those numbers.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/18/postid/124605/view/topic/Default.aspx

DH I think in general are played mostly by veterens at least in my area so that maybe holds true here the same for DE.

That's very impressive. Very impressive. I'm particularly confused on two issues:

1) Why did guard do so poorly?

2) And what happened to the Orks? I know the codex is outdated and much of it obsolete, so I figured the 7 guys who brought them would be tip-top players. And yet only 1 of them qualified. That just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how old the codex is.

While interesting, this tells you nothing about what sort of list does well. It simply tells you what army book does well.

So are DE effective? They can be. But will podding marines make them cry in 9 out of 10 games? Yes.

Well unless you're going to have access to that level of information - army lists, and opponents, you won't be able to generate those types of statistics (looking at TP per army columns).

Also there are some outliers here. The limited groups such as demonhunters would be more skewed due to player ability than the larger groups.

Non-SOB MEQs still in the 60+% range. Snore.

True, if you know you are playing a DE army with SM's and you bring twin podding libbies with fear (among the many other powerful weapons at SM's disposal), you will be pretty firmly favord to win, but it appears that in a highly comeptetive tourny setting where everyone is bringing take all comers lists, they can be very effective.

and the IG, well i love playing mine, but they are not the most competetive list and never have been from all of the stats i have seen. I wish they were tougher, but these numbers and at least my personal experiance indicate the contrary.

Do you guys think the one Ork player that did well was KoS? i would be willing to bet he was. the Orks, more than any other army, really need a power boost, IMHO.

And i suppose we would need to see all of the lists broken down in a similar manner in order to get a more complete picture of what specific lists would be most effective in a tournament setting, as well as what kinds of missions they played.

There are just so many variables that it is hard to get a complete picture. However, i think that this data does give us an idea of what armies are most effective, as you can bet that all of the Tau players were Mech Tau with very similar lists. so it does give us an idea of which armies can be highly effective and which ones are not too tough.

Posted By Reecius on 12/08/2006 11:16 AM

Do you guys think the one Ork player that did well was KoS? i would be willing to bet he was. the Orks, more than any other army, really need a power boost, IMHO.

Nope...Footsloggers...Check the BatReps section here

On the surface these are intersting stats but without comparing the players it doesn't really matter what the list was. At the last GT I went to most of the space marines plaers were pathetic. I personally play a heavy weapons HEAVY space marine list and finished fourth place (this is after not having played for two years so i think my list is ok). The first sm player I played came with 20 scouts. Almost more of an IG list to tell you the truth. So while interesting the GTs tend to attract a lot of local riff raff making any analysis based on an overall sampling useless. I would prefer to see how the top 25% of armies performed and then normalized and you would probably get a better picture of what is a good army.

Posted By mauleed on 12/08/2006 10:33 AM

While interesting, this tells you nothing about what sort of list does well. It simply tells you what army book does well.

So are DE effective? They can be. But will podding marines make them cry in 9 out of 10 games? Yes.

shome mishtake shurely? disposal skimmer push back + massive counter-attack makes drop pod marines cry.

Escalation can be a bit random though.

After last year's GT there was a discussion on EoT led by one of the game designers (I can't remember the name...)

His idea was to compare the number of armies entering the top 30% with the total number of armies of that type entered. His theory was that luck, player ability and other factors could be ignored, so that the variation in the results would derive only from the relative strength of the codexes.

In other words, if 20 Tau armies entered and 10 got into the top 30% of the rankings, that showed the Tau codex was a strong one.

Posted By brettz123 on 12/08/2006 8:05 PM
On the surface these are intersting stats but without comparing the players it doesn't really matter what the list was. At the last GT I went to most of the space marines plaers were pathetic. I personally play a heavy weapons HEAVY space marine list and finished fourth place (this is after not having played for two years so i think my list is ok). The first sm player I played came with 20 scouts. Almost more of an IG list to tell you the truth. So while interesting the GTs tend to attract a lot of local riff raff making any analysis based on an overall sampling useless. I would prefer to see how the top 25% of armies performed and then normalized and you would probably get a better picture of what is a good army.

UK GT heats are a wee bit more competitive than that.  Fifty quid for a ticket (that's a hundred dollars, roughly, if you're on t'other side of the pond) means that most people (not all, but most) are there to do as well as possible.

Posted By torgoch on 12/09/2006 1:51 AM

Posted By mauleed on 12/08/2006 10:33 AM

While interesting, this tells you nothing about what sort of list does well. It simply tells you what army book does well.

So are DE effective? They can be. But will podding marines make them cry in 9 out of 10 games? Yes.

shome mishtake shurely? disposal skimmer push back + massive counter-attack makes drop pod marines cry.

Escalation can be a bit random though.

Surely, more to the point, all of DE in webway, wait until after turn 3, marines have nothing to shoot at, then all of the DE come out of the webway and shoot up the disembarked marines pootling around on foot - no?

Sounds great. Only question is, who lays down the webway portal if everyone is in the portal? Also, how do you protect the webway portal from becoming blocked?

 

Something else to consider....in the UK they play 1500 point games. That can severly hamper some armies and help others.

If I'm paying a 100 bucks to play in a tournament, it better be 1850-2000.

1500 is okay, especially when it means you get six games. I do prefer 1700-1850 though.

In playing at the UK GT Heat One - I personally didn't mind the 1,500 point limit.  It allowed us to finish our games earlier and soak up some the surrounding scenery.  We had a great time talking with all the locals.  Plus it made it a lot easier getting all of my guys in one case for traveling overseas.

 

Posted By Darrian13 on 12/09/2006 7:43 PM
Sounds great. Only question is, who lays down the webway portal if everyone is in the portal? Also, how do you protect the webway portal from becoming blocked?

Sorry, everyone *except* the portal carrier (and a squad, I guess) inside the portal.  You stop it being blocked by hugging the edge of board (let him fall off the edge of the world, drop pods still don't help with that), or by sitting him in the middle of the squad - even with pods all around, they can't get too close because of the friendly models, and them getting shot up is fine.

And this is simply based on the fact that pods need that alpha strike capability, otherwise, why specifically mention pod marines? Saying they are going to win 9 out of 10 against one of the few armies that can deny them that suggests Mauleed wasn't really thinking about what he was saying.

Surprisingly.

One of the toughest matchups for me to face when testing my 1850 Pod List is supposedly going to be a Web Way Portal Wytch Cult.

I still am not sure how this is really going to adversely affect me. If he keeps his portals closed too long I have a good chance of killing or FOTD'ing his squads and carriers off the table.

That was my thought too, Voodoo. There's no way for you to hide 1 portal anywhere, really: Even in cover, half of his pods coming in will wipe out any single squad you have. Testing on ld6 for FotD while you're on the board edge doesn't sound like fun either.

I would love to see them raise the price of tickets for GTs in NA.  That would raise the level of competition.  I prefer the 1500 point total as it really makes you think more about what you are going to bring.  I love big games but it is pretty easy to bring all the toys in 1850-2000 points.

I play both a pod army and a wych cult web way army, so I can explain the match up.

In this scenario, both players actually want the second turn. The web way portal carrierS, cause you should have two, drop the portals on turn 1.

If the pod player got stuck with first turn, he lands half his force, and wipes out the portal squads. After that, Wyches come out and do their best vs. the pods.

Web way wyches benefit from being a really good match up vs. Terminators. They also come in raiders that can fly over enemy vehicles, so you can't block off the portal, and they can get over your pod wall. It's not going to be conclusive by any means, but the wych cult has more going for it.

If pods get the second turn, then yeah, it's pretty open and shut. Half his wych stuff comes out before the pods land, then get blown to kingdom come by the subsequent pods. Only hope there is to hug the table edge and LOS blocking terrain. Make it really risky for the pod player to deploy where he might go off the table, but that kind of set up takes a lot of practice. And even then, the pod shooting is going to do a lot of damage to the Dark eldar.

There are plenty of mitigating factors, but wyches can give you maybe a 1 in 3 shot vs pods, which is better odds than most armies get.

i'd stick two raiders or even a ravager out to get some push back, place half the counter-attack in the portal (assuming i had it) and place the rest outside FotD range. One the first pod wave hits you can counter-charge with bikes, druggies and fleet, and if FoTD doesn't come down round 2 you are in combat and safe anyway.

Like I said, there are some armies that are unplayable at 1500 points, but almost all armies can be competitive at 1850. I think the player makes a huge impact on how an army does, but even the best player can't win with a handicapped army.

Posted By General Hobbs on 12/10/2006 11:39 PM
Like I said, there are some armies that are unplayable at 1500 points, but almost all armies can be competitive at 1850. I think the player makes a huge impact on how an army does, but even the best player can't win with a handicapped army.

Codex Orks came second - what's more handicapped than that

Re: Web Way vs. Pods

One other thing to consider is Escalation, which completely hoses a Web Way Portal Army. According to my friend who plays DE and is very good with the WWP, the biggest thing they've got vs. Pods is the fact that they can roll for reserves and keep them in the portal by not having any portals open.

With Escalation if you keep the portals closed and roll for a unit to become available, it comes in from Reserve.

This may be off topic, but do you deploy the models through the webway and then move them, or do they "move on" from the webway? If so, you don't really have to worry about someone being on top of your portal so long as your force is all skimmer. Hmmm.

You measure from the portal as if it was the front edge of your model (for vehicles) or model?s base (for stuff on bases). Just like moving on from the table edge with Reserves. Yes, this means even if the enemy surrounds the gate, skimmers and jetbikes move right over them.

Voodoo Boyz- I don't think that's right. The DE codex says that if you hold units in reserve for the WWP, then they can only enter play through the portal. I don't see how the escalation rules would take precedence over that.

I actually don't mind escalation at all with my WWP wyches. It means everything I want to start on the table does, and everything that I don't doesn't anyway. It negatively effects my opponent, but not me at all. And it actually makes my portal carriers safer in the first couple of rounds.