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Played 1500pts over the weekend and went up against new eldar list with 3 Falcons and 1 Wave serpent.  I wiped his entire army out except the skimmers and try as I might all I could manage was an immobilized on one and that one had vectored engines.  Eldar and Tau skimmers with the right wargear seemed to be extremely obnoxiuos.  It's obvious this trend is going to be the standard build and I can see it dominating tournaments.  Which armies out thier are having success against the Eldar/Tau airforce.  The two I see being the most successfull is podding marines and Necrons.  Thoughts and opinions please.

For the Guard, I use Deep Striking Hardened Vets, PHQ's, and Stormies with meltaguns. I field 5 such units in a 1K army, and have little to no trouble with heavy armor after turn 3. The problem is, this tactic is reliant on good dice rolls, which is something I am bad at. Infiltrating Hardened Vets with 3 Plasma and 1 Lascannon could act as a bit of a trump card against this, as they could be deployed in cover, giving them additional survivability (esp. with cameleoline) if they don't shoot first.

CK

The movement towards skim tank lists is rooted in the proliferation of pod lists and the Daemon Bomb over the last year or so. The new eldar codex railroads you towards mechanized, even more, with stupidly weak core troop choices and lackluster alternatives to the prism in heavy support. People abusing Fear of the Darkness also has a lot of Xenos opting to hide in tanks. The typical Fire Warrior or Eldar model is too frail to wait for a flamer and squad of double tap death to arrive on the table.

There are solid counters to skim heavy lists. Deep striking behind them helps, to a point, but a smart player will just hug table edges until all the reserves have landed. Really, your best weapon against the skim army is a descent multishot weapon, prefferably with tank hunters. Missle Launchers with tank Hunter are ideal against eldar in particular and less expensive than las cannons. If you happen to play Chaos or Guard, the Auto Cannon also works wonders in this role. Finally, anything that can move fast enough to get behind grav tanks will also do the job, like rough riders armed with special weapons or SM bikers. My main advice is to simply shake the tanks, moving on to other targets once that is done, all game until you have dealt with the rest of the army. Keeping them from hurting you is good enough for the first couple turns so don't get obsessed with killing them and let the rest of the army beat you.

Humorously enough, I think one of the biggest threats to Eldar Skimmers is Swooping Hawks with Intercept.

Based on my reading of the RAW, Haywire grenades can Pen a Skimmer no matter how fast it moves. So, you've got a squad of models that can move 12", assault 6", and then hit on a 4+ with Haywire Grenades. Each model gives you a 1/3 chance to Glance, and 1/12 to Pen.

Don't forget, hawks are fleet, so it is move 12+D6 inches, and assault...

I am sure that other armies have got to have something that does just as well.

I'm thinking multi-laser heavy guard and DW assault cannon armies of doom will do ok.

Why would haywire grenades pin skimmers? They get a pin, the skimmer rule downgrades this to a glance.
I dont see why it wouldn't get downgraded.

Posted By cypher on 12/11/2006 3:58 PM
Why would haywire grenades pin skimmers? They get a pin, the skimmer rule downgrades this to a glance.
I dont see why it wouldn't get downgraded.

Well, as far as I can tell, the rules are in direct conflict.  They both are outright modifications, as listed in the BGB.  Much like how a Wraithcannon only allows a glancing hit on a 3-4 regardless of AP, Skimmers moving fast only allows glancing hits, regardless of what hit it.  Haywire grenades seem to function along the same lines, mandating a glancing or penetrating hit.

That's how it seems to me, anyway, although to be honest, I haven't given it much thought because I'm not planning on fielding Hawks.   Phyrxis, would you mind posting your rationale on the subject?

The old Eldar faq said haywire grenades could only glance, so the intent is pretty clear.

The current main rulebook faq, under ap1 weapons, says something along the lines of any hit, shooting or melee, on a skimmer that moved over 6" is a glance. The fact that it mentions melee when there are no ap1 melee weapons leads me to the conclusion that it's meant as a general rule, not just for ap1 weapons.

yes all hits from ANY source reguardless of specila rules are only counted as a glancing hit on a skimmer moving over 6" it is in the newest online errata for the 40K main rules.

 

i run a tau tank force. the idea is to limit the threats to the fewer number of heavy weapons that can actually get through AV12  thus improving survivability. and i have found 3 armies that give me trouble-

 

necrons-every guy in the army can glance you even though they are only S4 (damn gauss weapons)

iron warriors-it is an army of heavy weeapons......nuff said

thousand sons with lots of aspiring champions with doom bolts IE walking las cannons

 

another thing to consider as well- properly upgraded tank forces

tau excell at killing troops with smart missle, burst cannnons, targeting array and fletchette launchers

eldar have less shots but can threaten everything on the board not just troops since all thier tanks-serpents and falcons can carry a S8 AP2 gun

 

 

 

The reason Intercept/Haywire Hawks are such a nice counter is that they combine

1) the mobility to catch skimmer tanks (DS, 12" move, fleet) with the
2) weapons to damage them if they can't reach the rear (Haywire grenades don't care about AV) and the
3) ability to hit em (the Intercept power, which negates the annoying 6+ hth penalty on attacking moving skimmers).

Now throw in an Autarch with a Fusion Gun and you have a fine tank smackin' unit, whether it's rumbling on the ground or skimming along full of Fire Warriors. Oh, and did I mention they can usually get out of the way of any passengers, too (Skyleap)?

-Adso

Posted By BrotherAdso on 12/11/2006 7:38 PM
The reason Intercept/Haywire Hawks are such a nice counter is that they combine

1) the mobility to catch skimmer tanks (DS, 12" move, fleet) with the
2) weapons to damage them if they can't reach the rear (Haywire grenades don't care about AV) and the
3) ability to hit em (the Intercept power, which negates the annoying 6+ hth penalty on attacking moving skimmers).

Now throw in an Autarch with a Fusion Gun and you have a fine tank smackin' unit, whether it's rumbling on the ground or skimming along full of Fire Warriors. Oh, and did I mention they can usually get out of the way of any passengers, too (Skyleap)?

-Adso

haywire grenades can only glance as per the errata

small problem if your doing that to tau tanks...with fletchette launchers you may not live to make those attacks

 

Yeah?

p. 69 : "Any hits that beat the Armor Value of a mobile skimmer moving more than 6" in its last Movement phase count as glancing hits intead of penetrating hits."

Nice job, GW. Why do you write this convoluted rule, then FAQ it to mean something else?

If 3 to 4 skimmers become the standard it's going to become a no brainer army and anyone can run it. 3 Falcons kitted out with Dragons or whatever inside denies victory points, Flies around the whole game shooting things up and in the last turn siezes objectives. I remember seeing the numbers run before and it's an insane amount of shots to bring even one Falcon down. This build in my mind has become the army for the tactically challenged because your really just relying on the falcons insane ability to survive. I sold off my Mech Tau because of the same reasons, 3 Railheads, and 3 Devilfish equaled easy victories and bored me to tears. It usually wasn't any fun for my opponent either.

Posted By Lemartes on 12/12/2006 9:53 AM
 This build in my mind has become the army for the tactically challenged because your really just relying on the falcons insane ability to survive.

 

As opposed to relying on the strength of any other unit in the game? I guess marines tactical shouldn't take advantage of cheap heavy weapons? Or terminators shouldn't take assault cannons? Orks shouldn't take large squads?

Get off you high horse. If someone wants to play this perfectly legal list then more power to them. The challenge for every other player is how to tackle this.

ender502

Let's be realistic about these numbers for a minute. I think paramnesia is blowing them out of proportion again.

First, I'm going to include immobilization in the definition of "bring a falcon down." With vectored engines it's true that immobilizing won't destroy them anymore, but it does make them non-scoring and it's easy to finish off a downed falcon with an assault or penetrating hit afterward.

So the odds of getting an "immobilized" or "destroyed" result from a glancing hit on a holofield-equipped vehicle are 1 in 9.

That doesn't mean that it takes 9 glancing hits to get one of those results. Because it's an average number, it can be deceiving. You can down a falcon on the very first glance, or go many more than 9 glances without doing any permanent damage.

But it also means that, on average, a falcon will go down about 50% of the time after 4-5 glancing hits. About 33% of the time, a falcon will go down sometime in the first 3 glances--a predator anihillator can do that with one salvo.

So they're not insane or unkillable. Part of the misperception, I think, comes from the fact that people (wisely) shoot to glance, and then move on to other targets. It's probably compounded by the way that opponents only come back around trying to actually down falcons late in the game when they are desperate and have fewer weapons to shoot, so can't muster the quantity of glancing hits necessary. Part of it is still the same old fact that weapons that usually kill heavy tanks, such as meltas and monstrous flyers, are actually *less* effective against falcons than the weapons usually considered weak tank killers, such as autocannons and plasma.

And, finally, there's also the reputation of falcons that causes everone to always attribute a statistically-normal surviving falcon to "Eldar cheese" and a statistically-normal downed falcon to a "lucky shot."

Flavius: Well put. I was about to make a similar response. Very well articulated.

Qoute:

Get off you high horse. If someone wants to play this perfectly legal list then more power to them. The challenge for every other player is how to tackle this.


ender502
Mrrrrrrrrrreeeh you just want to compare horses, admit it.  Unless your pulling my horses leg and  I actually ride a pony who says Naaaay. My marine chapter is even called the Knights of Naaaay.

The problem Flavius, is that a falcon is 300% more survivable than a standard skimmer of equal AV.

normal skimmer is brought down 1/3 of the time.
Falcon is brought down 1/9 of the time.

So a normal av12 skimmer = 18 autocannon shots from bs 3, or 9 dedicated autocannons
Falcon = 54 auto cannon shots from bs 3 or shooting from 27 dedicated autocannons.

One is tough but doable, the other is frankly insane.

Amen brother. I was waiting for one of the number crucnchers to pipe up. I have now played so many games against the Falcon and talk from experience. If you don't build a list dedicated to talking down skimmers you will be hard pressed to deal with a three Falcon/Railhead list. Holofields/Decoy launchers are just to much on a skimmer.

Off the subject of the Falcon for a second:

The easiest way to take down skimmers is to field multi-shot Str. 8 units. For example, in my Word Bearers army, my Duel-Plasma Rhinoe Squads have Tank Hunters for that reason, they are usually deployed forward enough to Rapid Fire a skimmer or two.

The goal is to roll as many glancing hits as possible.

Eldar can also Eldrich storm a vehicle and fire a whole lot of STR. 6 into a back armor.

Back to Falcons, I have noticed, luck-wise, they are either unbeatable or suffer from "luck duel 6's". The upside to them though is that they will almost always be stunned, so their contribution will be limited. However, they are porbably one of the best VP denial scoring units in the game.

Posted By Lemartes on 12/13/2006 7:24 AM

Mrrrrrrrrrreeeh you just want to compare horses, admit it.  Unless your pulling my horses leg and  I actually ride a pony who says Naaaay. My marine chapter is even called the Knights of Naaaay.

Huh? Wait...... Ohhh....... Mmmmm....... Uh....... Huh?

Don't worry, I get it. As much as I think the all falcon list is a tough nut to crack I think it has some limitations. I am also not convinced that it is the cheesiest list the eldar can use... at least in a "take-all-comer" sense. And it really doesn't compare to what nilla and podding marines can do.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 12/13/2006 11:15 AM

Posted By Lemartes on 12/13/2006 7:24 AM

Mrrrrrrrrrreeeh you just want to compare horses, admit it.  Unless your pulling my horses leg and  I actually ride a pony who says Naaaay. My marine chapter is even called the Knights of Naaaay.

Huh? Wait...... Ohhh....... Mmmmm....... Uh....... Huh?

Don't worry, I get it. As much as I think the all falcon list is a tough nut to crack I think it has some limitations. I am also not convinced that it is the cheesiest list the eldar can use... at least in a "take-all-comer" sense. And it really doesn't compare to what nilla and podding marines can do.

ender502

The only reason 'nilla podding marines can even stand a chance vs. Falcons is because we can take so many Assault Cannons with Tank Hunting Terminators who can stun the crap out of the Falcon, and even then we need to be lucky to actually *kill* the damned thing.

I'd be especially interested in what you think the cheesiest list Eldar can take is if it isn't spamming the hell out of what is arguably the toughest unit to kill in 40k.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 12/13/2006 11:28 AM


I'd be especially interested in what you think the cheesiest list Eldar can take is if it isn't spamming the hell out of what is arguably the toughest unit to kill in 40k.

No doubt the falcon is a tough nut. I don't imagine that is under dispute. As I said, I am not convinced that the three falcon list is the cheesiest. Let me be more specific.. the 3 snakes on a plane list.

Off the top of my head I think the fire prisms will be more abusive. Several guardian squads with heavies and eldrad to guide them, an avatar for fearlessness and shadow seer counter charge. You get most of survivability of falcons with better MEQ killing potential and a moving shooty base that won't runaway and can hit 75% of the time (thanks guide) and a counter charge ability that can make a hive tyrant nervous. I think that would be a bit more cheese.  Hmmmm... there might even be a few more points in there to add a few toys as well.

I am personally taking a "wait and see" approach to decide which is the most finely tuned (read that as cheesey/power gamer if you wish) list.

As nasty as the snakes on a plan list is it suffers from an obvious weakness... relatively low model count. A few lucky hits and your VP denial plans go right out the window.  Falcons are not a game winner. But they certainly are a strong part of a winning force.

ender502

Posted By ender502 on 12/13/2006 12:17 PM

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 12/13/2006 11:28 AM


I'd be especially interested in what you think the cheesiest list Eldar can take is if it isn't spamming the hell out of what is arguably the toughest unit to kill in 40k.

No doubt the falcon is a tough nut. I don't imagine that is under dispute. As I said, I am not convinced that the three falcon list is the cheesiest. Let me be more specific.. the 3 snakes on a plane list.

Off the top of my head I think the fire prisms will be more abusive. Several guardian squads with heavies and eldrad to guide them, an avatar for fearlessness and shadow seer counter charge. You get most of survivability of falcons with better MEQ killing potential and a moving shooty base that won't runaway and can hit 75% of the time (thanks guide) and a counter charge ability that can make a hive tyrant nervous. I think that would be a bit more cheese.  Hmmmm... there might even be a few more points in there to add a few toys as well.

I am personally taking a "wait and see" approach to decide which is the most finely tuned (read that as cheesey/power gamer if you wish) list.

As nasty as the snakes on a plan list is it suffers from an obvious weakness... relatively low model count. A few lucky hits and your VP denial plans go right out the window.  Falcons are not a game winner. But they certainly are a strong part of a winning force.

ender502

Why bother with Prisms when the Falcon can do the same job but probably better?  It comes with two S8 AP2 shots and if you pay the points you can get more AP2 Goodies on it, where as you need two prisms to get a good blast out of the thing?

The problem with either tank is that if you take the Prism for shooting it'll likely be stunned all game, as opposed to the Falcon which can transport nasties (Harlies, Dragons, Banshees, heck even Wraith Guard if you were so inclined) while stunned, and doing everything else the Fire Prism does, but better.

I'm pretty sure that Mech Eldar are going to be the biggest winners as far as competitive builds go from the new Dex.

Remember when you take Falcons, they're tough, but when you take Wave Serpents along with Falcons they become another potent threat that has to be dealt with, and although it's no Falcon an AV12 Skimmer is a tougher nut to crack than say an AV13 Tank or maybe even AV14 Tanks.

Snakes on a Plane is nice and all, but I really see other options as being much better, like "Rending Clowns from Outer Space on a Plane" - and some other fast nasties too. 

Well, an AV12 Skimmer is nothing special... But an AV12 Fast Skimmer with Energy Shields or Holo Fields is.

Nothing beats the Monolith for survivability, but Falcons and Wave Serpents are no joke.

Do the math, a fast moving falcon, is much harder to take down than a monolith. A monolith is railgun bait, and is threatened by lascannons. The falcon is neither.

Do the math, a monolith is much harder to take down than a fast moving falcon. Falcons are autocannon bait and threatened by assault cannons. The monolith is neither.

:p

I would not call needing 27 autocannons to kill something really auto cannon bait...... ok, from any gun strenght 8 or up, it is easier to take out a monolith than a fast falcon. With any gun str 7 and lower, you will score more vps shooting at guardians in 4+ cover than a falcon.

Okay, I was just trying to be cute. A lot of the chaos guys here run 4 tank hunting autocannon havocks, so that might colour my perspective.

at bs4.
13.5 tank hunting autocannon
20.25 autocannon

27 str 8 shots (at bs4) to down a monolith.

edit: reworded some stuff