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So now that we know what to expect from the GT as far as rules are concerned [gloat] "Counts as" [/gloat], I have slightly tweaked my 1850 Lysander R Kelly list to the proscibed points.

This is a non traited codex list. So no extra turns for the opponent and no tank hunters for my devs or tacs (like I am taking those to begin with)...

I have 18 points left to spend, and am not sure if I should throw those into combiflamers, purity seals, etc for the list.

1 Captain Lysander (HQ) @ 382 Pts
     Storm Shield; Furious Charge Skill
     Terminator Armour, Fist of Dorn, Purity Seals
3 Terminator Command Squad
     Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious Charge Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Furious Charge Skill


1 Epistolary Librarian (HQ) @ 369 Pts
     Force Weapon; Furious Charge Skill
     Terminator Armour, Might of Heroes, Fury of the Ancients
3 Terminator Command Squad
     Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious Charge Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Furious Charge Skill


4 Terminator Squad (Elites) @ 255 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunter Skill

4 Terminator Squad (Elites) @ 255 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunter Skill

4 Terminator Squad (Elites) @ 255 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunter Skill


4 Scout Squad (Troops) @ 108 Pts
     Sniper Rifle (x4); Infilitrate Skill
1 Veteran Sergeant
     Sniper Rifle; Infilitrate Skill, Teleport Homer

4 Scout Squad (Troops) @ 108 Pts
     Sniper Rifle (x4); Infilitrate Skill
1 Veteran Sergeant
     Sniper Rifle; Infilitrate Skill, Teleport Homer

Models in Army: 35
Total Army Cost: 1732

Any comments?

Updated List:

1 Captain Lysander (HQ) @ 382 Pts
     Storm Shield; Furious Charge Skill
     Terminator Armour, Fist of Dorn, Purity Seals
3 Terminator Command Squad
     Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious Charge Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Furious Charge Skill


1 Epistolary Librarian (HQ) @ 369 Pts
     Force Weapon; Furious Charge Skill
     Terminator Armour, Might of Heroes, Fury of the Ancients
3 Terminator Command Squad
     Power Fist (x3); Storm Bolter (x1); Assault Cannon (x2); Furious Charge Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter, Purity seals; Furious Charge Skill
              

4 Terminator Squad (Elites) @ 255 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunter Skill

4 Terminator Squad (Elites) @ 255 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunter Skill

4 Terminator Squad (Elites) @ 255 Pts
     Power Fist (x4); Storm Bolter (x2); Assault Cannon (x2); Tank Hunter Skill
1 Sergeant
     Power Weapon; Storm Bolter; Tank Hunter Skill
         

4 Scout Squad (Troops) @ 115 Pts
     Sniper Rifle (x3), Missile Launcher; Infilitrate Skill
1 Veteran Sergeant
     Sniper Rifle; Infilitrate Skill, Teleport Homer, Auspex

4 Scout Squad (Troops) @ 113 Pts
     Sniper Rifle (x3), Missile Launcher; Infilitrate Skill
1 Veteran Sergeant
     Sniper Rifle; Infilitrate Skill, Teleport Homer

Models in Army: 35
Total Army Cost: 1749

I'm sort of surprised you didn't give any scout units a HB or ML. Any particular reason (you have leftover points, after all)?

Personally, I'd love to see a FC Assault Termie squad, but in a tournament situation (which is what this list looks like to me) they'd get shot to pieces before doing anything.

Another thing to 'shop' for with those extra points could be chain-fists, but I find I never use 'em with my more 'traditional' deathwing...

Posted By syr8766 on 01/03/2007 2:59 PM
#1I'm sort of surprised you didn't give any scout units a HB or ML. Any particular reason (you have leftover points, after all)?

#2Personally, I'd love to see a FC Assault Termie squad, but in a tournament situation (which is what this list looks like to me) they'd get shot to pieces before doing anything.

#3Another thing to 'shop' for with those extra points could be chain-fists, but I find I never use 'em with my more 'traditional' deathwing...

#1. That probably becuase I completly forgot about that option. I have been playing 5 snipers for so long, the thought simply didnt occur to me. Hmmm...

#2.  Never ever will I ever ever field assault termies. Not never ever never.

#3. Chain fists sound great to put into a termie tank hunting sqauds, but from my experience from putting them on termies, Ii never get a chance to get close enough to use them.

If I use HB, then I still have 18 points left. If I use ML, I have 8 points left.

Perhaps two ML and auspex for  a scout squad with maybe purity seals in the librarium unit sgt?

Even though you have two IC's who are decent in CC, forget the furious charge, you will almost always want to be shooting and not assaulting, so you want to have Tank Hunters instead of furious charge on the command squads, at least that's what I'm going to do (if I can even go to the GT anymore, which may not happen ).

I'd also say go for ML's on the scouts, you already have tons of Dakka to give them HB's.

Also: Have you tried Veil of Time rather than Might or Fury?

Id go with Tankhunters on all Termis as well.

About the Scouts: They should be hiding until Termis arrive. Then they will be a possible unit to countercharge. Ever thought about taking a trait and giving them Furios charge? FC Scouts do surprisingly well as countercharge units from my experience with Blood Angels. Many attacks and their weak save doesnt matter much, when the opponent (MEq) cant strike back.

Since you got Vets anyways, maybe give thouse a Powerweapon then.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 01/03/2007 6:44 PM
Even though you have two IC's who are decent in CC, forget the furious charge, you will almost always want to be shooting and not assaulting...

Not true. You want to shoot as much as possible while limiting return fire.

Assault is neccesary for that to happen.

The FC skills stay. I have worked too long and hard to get rid of that tactic so easily. I cant laud FC enough. For 15 points, I make the libby and sgt I6 and I5 respectively, with str5 power weapons. Add to that might of heroes for 10 point s for the sgt, and he is now as good as alot of IC's in CC. 25 points isnt a bad price, especially considering the flexibility of having the rest of the termies turning off the power fists to get the first word in. In fact, FC is a steal.

I already have three units with tankhunters. That should be enough.

The ML's on the scouts though, is a definate addition.

Thanks for the reminder about the heavy weapons in the scout squads, Yair.
Its nice to have someone remind you of the simple things that can easily be overlooked. That was exactly what I was looking for.
Veil isnt as hot as Might of fury for me. The second power is always fury because fury is just that good (and cheap). MOH is great, wish there was something better, but there isnt yet for my style.

Thanks for the help and comments everyone.

Speaking of over looked little things, I didn't know that Lysander could be given a veteran skill. After seeing your list, I checked my codex to see for sure. I guess I thought that special characters couldn't be given anything extra. Thanks, now my Lysander wing is slighty more powerful.

Do you find MOH to be better then FOTD for the Librarian?

they cant be given anything extrathat is not stated eg command squad.

Posted By Magnusthe Red on 01/04/2007 7:36 AM
they cant be given anything extrathat is not stated eg command squad.

Youre mistaken.

Lysander's rules for command squads:


Terminator command squad entry:


Notice anything that allows IC's that are attached to the command squad to take vet skills?

Posted By Me_Person  on  01/04/2007 5:06 AM

Do you find MOH to be better then FOTD for the Librarian?

I want FOTD to be good, but there are too many armies that this isnt a factor worth consideration in taking. Even some gaurd armies can effectively deny FOTD. Not a choice worth taking in my experience.
MOH for my style of play (shoot until you get into assault, cream them on their turn, consolidate, shoot, run into assault, etc) is suited very well. It can make the libby a close combat monster at I6.

Hellfury -

I'm also working on a lysanderwing since Deathwing is dead. The only thing I do differently is I take Tank Hunters for Lysander's Unit because he has a thunder hammer which means he'll be striking last anyway. I would only give FC to the librarian for the I6 S5 Force Weapon. And I would take FOTD instead of FOTA. I've also found that Might of Heroe's usually doesn't help because you'll miss the Libby's chance to use his force weapon for an instant kill.

I also give my scouts pistols and CC weaps with a Power fist vet serg, just cuz I don't like Sniper Rifles, but I don't really know what is more effective.

Agreed on FOTD: I've used it successful exactly once, against Orks. Most of the time I end up just using Fury; I'll have to try MOH.

The list looks pretty tight, especially with the HW in the Scout Squads. I may just have to 'borrow' your list idea

Just hope they painted yellow

Also are IF's bound by the trait system to what the book says they are or can they be played as nothing?

Otherwise I like the list, though it is well within my "cheese" definition, for your left over points I would give your Librarian and 2 scout sgts bionics. Not the best thing in the world, but maybe that 6 up can/will work on an unlucky armor save?

I reread the traits section about the chapters of legend and it clearly states that they can be used without traits or with the traits provided for them.

IE, Imp Fists can have the extra turn and tank hunter traits, or nothing, and still be considered an IMPERIAL FIST army.

Posted By moosifer on 01/05/2007 1:00 PM

Counts as rules are primarily for using models as something else (that still makes sense). For example, using your Kislev Winged Lancers as Empire Knights since the Kislev rules are not available for the GT. You still have to follow the rules for things if you want to use the RULES, and not just the MODELS. So you can only use the Lysander with his rules in an Imp Fist army (following all their rules). You can use the Lysander model in any Marine force with the proper weapon build, but to use his rules, you have to be playing Imperial Fist.

Just hope they painted yellow

Thats a very selective use of that thread you quoted. No need for the IF to be yellow. Atleast, not according to Jeff Hall.

Cheese or not, compostition scoring is dead.

Posted By GWEvents  on  01/03/2007 6:27 AM

Hellfury,
The Traits for Chapters of Legend only must be used if you are using Traits in general.  You can always just use the basic list for any of those Chapters without any Traits.

As for Counts As, this mainly applies to models.  If you want to use Imperial Fist rules with an alternate color scheme, that shouldn't be a problem as long as everything is easily identified as to what it is by the model in question.  Scratch Built models are permitted for things like Drop Pods as there is no official GW model.  You can always use the FW version, but if you custom build your own, that is fine.

Posted By moosifer on 01/05/2007 1:00 PM
Also are IF's bound by the trait system to what the book says they are or can they be played as nothing?

Yeah, its legal to not use traits in a chapter army. For the LysanderWing style IF, the traits are pure drawbacks overall. Who needs tankhunters when youre not going to use it? Just to let the opponent have an extra turn? Now thats funny stuff.

Posted By whitedragon  on  01/04/2007 1:07 PM

Hellfury -
The only thing I do differently is I take Tank Hunters for Lysander's Unit because he has a thunder hammer which means he'll be striking last anyway.  I would only give FC to the librarian for the I6 S5 Force Weapon.  ... I've also found that Might of Heroe's usually doesn't help because you'll miss the Libby's chance to use his force weapon for an instant kill.

I hardly ever get a chance to assault a vehicle with my termies. Opponenets dont like powerfists smashing their armour for some really strange reason. FC functions quite well with lysander. First of all, you dont always have to hit with special weapons. But if you do use the fist of dorn, then the rest of the squad gets the first strike (often) and lysander doesnt have so many things to worry about once it becomes his time to finally swing.

Well, might of heroes isnt only for the libby. MOH works quite well to make a sgt nearly as good as an IC. Its even better when mixed with FC. For that 10 extra points, I now have up to 11 (12 if I pay 15 more points for a power weapon on the libby) str 5 power weapon attacks on the charge, 5 to 8 of which are at I6, depending on if I put MOH on the libby or not..

FOTA should always be the second power for an epistolary. It is the cheapest and really a compulsory power. When it gets designated to second power, you only have to pay a mere 9 pts for it. Armies with high leadership or fearless qualities (more and more prevalent nowadays) are hard to make fall back. But who wants a shooty army falling back away from you so that you have further to trudge to get into CC (remember, I play as "shoot until you assault, assault. Consolidate and shoot charge again" ?

FOTA has a chance of pinning things as opposed to making them run away. Because of the str of the attack and the pinning check, it makes it far more preferential to use FOTA to make a unit not only stay put until you get there to kiss them on the cheek, but also make them become a very non productive unit for the opponent for a turn. TONS more valuable than FOTD any day of the week for how I play LysanderWing.

But as always, different strokes for different folks.

FOTD is almost too good. I think it actually serves to drive the metagame toward FOTD resistant armies and mech lists!

Posted By ninjajuicer on 01/05/2007 4:40 PM
FOTD is almost too good. I think it actually serves to drive the metagame toward FOTD resistant armies and mech lists!

I somewhat agree, which is why I use that to my advantage and not use FOTD. 8)

There are still alot of armies that are resistant to FOTD (though the leadership modifier helps make FOTD useful) without having to gear specifically against armies using FOTD.

Hellfury-

You misunderstood my reference to tank hunters. The tank hunter skill is more useful for the squad Lysander is in because they have Assault Cannons which can make use of the skill as soon as they teleport down. Ideally, Lysander shouldn't have to assault anything because his squad is nuking stuff in the shooting phase. That and he is going to get singled out in an assault because he's an IC and strikes last. The Sgt's 3 attacks with a S5 power weapon are worth less than S7 assault cannons and S5 Stormbolters I would think.

As for the librarian, its not that Might of Heroes is good, its that I'd rather have my libby killing something expensive with his Force Weapon than just simple crowd control. They do have assault cannons for that work.

But hardly either build breaks the game wide open. And I agree of FOTA.

Editor is F'ing wiht my post. will repost

 

Posted By whitedragon on 01/05/2007 3:21 PM
I reread the traits section about the chapters of legend and it clearly states that they can be used without traits or with the traits provided for them.

IE, Imp Fists can have the extra turn and tank hunter traits, or nothing, and still be considered an IMPERIAL FIST army.

But you missed the section of the G.T. Rules packet where it stated the Traits MUST be used if they're listed for the chapter.

Fromthe packet: ( http://gt.us.games-workshop.com/Rules/assets/2007GT40kRules.pdf 

"Space Marines

• Codex: Space Marines - Traits may be used. If using a Chapter with defined Traits in the Codex, those must be used."

You misread it then.

You can use traits just like it says in the Space marine codex. (i.e. my interpretation is legal)

From this post:
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/3/view/Topic/postid/131057/Default.aspx
(Which is also quoted 5 posts above your last  post)

Posted By GWEvents on 01/03/2007 6:27 AM
Hey guys,
Let me try and get to all your questions:

The Traits for Chapters of Legend only must be used if you are using Traits in general. You can always just use the basic list for any of those Chapters without any Traits.

Hope that answers your questions!
Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Is Lysander then considered part of the 'basic list'.

My take is if you have an army that is painted like Imperial Fists, you can simply play it as straight vanilla and not use any traits. Same with Raven Guard, Salamanders or whatnot. Not sure that applies if you are using an Imperial Fist special character, however.

Posted By Hellfury on 01/29/2007 12:38 PM
You misread it then.

You can use traits just like it says in the Space marine codex. (i.e. my interpretation is legal)

From this post:
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/3/view/Topic/postid/131057/Default.aspx
(Which is also quoted 5 posts above your last  post)

Posted By GWEvents on 01/03/2007 6:27 AM
Hey guys,
Let me try and get to all your questions:

The Traits for Chapters of Legend only must be used if you are using Traits in general. You can always just use the basic list for any of those Chapters without any Traits.

Hope that answers your questions!
Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Not doubting you Hellfury, but I can't see any other way to read what is written in the rules packet; There's just no way to parse it to say anything other than "If a chapter has Traits listed, then you must use those Traits.", and I since can't necessarily base my decision on what is essentially an anonymous post here on Dakka, I'll have to call the TO for the Baltimore GT and confirm that ruling. However it DOES seem odd to me that the GT's would so blatantly contradict the "Flagship" Codex.

Posted By Sarigar on 01/29/2007 5:09 PM
Is Lysander then considered part of the 'basic list'.

My take is if you have an army that is painted like Imperial Fists, you can simply play it as straight vanilla and not use any traits. Same with Raven Guard, Salamanders or whatnot. Not sure that applies if you are using an Imperial Fist special character, however.

My imp fist army can be painted to look like guacamole marines if I wanted to and still be able to use imp fist rules.

How it works is I say " This is an imperial fists army". Hand them my legal list and show them my perfectly repped army. Then the opponent says "ok".

Period.

Posted By Lordhat on 01/29/2007 7:22 PM

Posted By Hellfury on 01/29/2007 12:38 PM
You misread it then.

You can use traits just like it says in the Space marine codex. (i.e. my interpretation is legal)

From this post:
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/6/tpage/3/view/Topic/postid/131057/Default.aspx
(Which is also quoted 5 posts above your last  post)

Posted By GWEvents on 01/03/2007 6:27 AM
Hey guys,
Let me try and get to all your questions:

The Traits for Chapters of Legend only must be used if you are using Traits in general. You can always just use the basic list for any of those Chapters without any Traits.

Hope that answers your questions!
Jeff Hall
GWUS Community Manager

Not doubting you Hellfury, but I can't see any other way to read what is written in the rules packet; There's just no way to parse it to say anything other than "If a chapter has Traits listed, then you must use those Traits.", and I since can't necessarily base my decision on what is essentially an anonymous post here on Dakka, I'll have to call the TO for the Baltimore GT and confirm that ruling. However it DOES seem odd to me that the GT's would so blatantly contradict the "Flagship" Codex.

I agree. Thats why I wont bother going to any GT with them. I run the risk of many things trying to do that.

I can tell you if I got there, after jeff hall told me it was ok to do, and couldnt play because some idiot redshirt told me my list was illegal., I would have to ram my fist so far down his throat it really wouldnt be funny. Especially after travel, hotel, time away from work expenses.

This type of nit picking that obviously contradicts the rules in the codex is not worth my time considering playing in any events.

Poorly written as usual, leaving any cigarette that wants to express disdain an easy avenue to do so.

How about the judges changing their minds after the first game and zeroing the score? That's always fun...

lol yeah I was thinking of you when I posted that in fact, sutekh.

Glad my life's purpose of being a warning to others is of some use...

Sutekh, are you the one who got zero'd for the 6 Ven Dread list? If so take comfort in the fact I was VERY glad when the FAQ proved you right.

I'm not referring to however it was painted- could care less. If an army is painted like Imperial Fists and a person says he's running them as vanilla, that seems to be what GW has declared.  I was looking at whether you can opt to run an Imperial Fist special character and still call your marines a basic list, thus not having to use the Imperial Fist traits.

However, now that you've decided not to take them to a GT, it really is a moot point.