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Here's a 1000pt list to critique

1000 Points

Close Order Discipline

Iron Discipline

Deep Strike

  ID is the shiznit, and the other two are free; DSing the HQ Officer is always an option

HQ - 209+pts<strong style=""> [/b]

<strong style="">Command Squad - 1 Jr. Officer ( ID, HO, Power Weapon ), 4x Flamer  
[/b]

I  decided that the HQ unit might as well get it's use as a Counter-Charge/potential DS unit since I don't have one elsewhere;  if the JO+HI dies I usually make my LD 8 checks anyway. The Flamers get a lot of hits right before CC and don't rely on BS, and the PW is for fluff/CC goodness. And a Storm Bolter/GL HQ is too expensive on the points here.<strong style=""> [/b]

AT Squad - 3x Lascannons

A big-points, armor-threatening unit to help take opponent's fire/concentration off of the Demos

  Troop Unit #1 - 210pts

<strong style="">Command Squad - 1 Jr. Officer ( ID )+2Guardsmen+Missile Launcher [/b]

<strong style="">Squad #1 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (Missile Launcher) [/b]

<strong style="">Squad #2 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (Missile Launcher) [/b]

<strong style=""> [/b]AT platoon  with the versatility to shoot at infantry as well ( Frag's templates, 3x Krak hits might force a morale check )<strong style=""> [/b]

Troop Unit #2 - 205pts

<strong style="">Command Squad - 1 Jr. Officer ( ID )+2 Guardsmen+Autocannon [/b]

<strong style="">Squad #2 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (HB) [/b]

<strong style="">Squad #1 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (HB) [/b]

 FS Platoon with an Autocannon to Instant-Death the rank-and-filers and take out armor in a serious pinch.

Heavy Unit #1 - 188pts

1x Leman Russ Demolisher ( Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons, Smoke Launcher )

  Heavy Unit #2 - 188pts

1x Leman Russ Demolisher ( Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons, Smoke Launcher )

I can't decide if 2x Defensive Demos is better, or if I should take one Offensive ( 3x Heavy Bolters ) and one Defensive ( as it is ), OR if I should take a Lascannon/HB Demo and a Lascannon/Plasma Demo. In any event, 2x Offensive Demos won't be happening because I'll need a Defensive Demo for fire support/fire magnet purposes. I could also toss a Stubber on the Offensive Demo...hmmm. Thoughts?

For a HQ Command Squad, I recommend the very effective JO w/ H.I, I.D, and a standard bearer. Tuck these guys away in the back to help with LD.

For a counter assault, try equipping a Platoon Command Squad with up to 3 flamers. Anymore are over kill.

Drop that AT Squad, and replace the missile launchers in platoon 1 with lascannons instead. Now you'll have the IG's most effective squad based MEQ and tank killer.

Your opponents army composition should play a role in determining which demo you take. Vs. any type of MEQ, your "defensive" set up is the way to go. However, vs. GEQ, I'd recomend dropping a demo for a regular Russ w/ 3 HB's. Demolishers have a very specific role, and often thrive in confined spaces.

Given demolishers' 24" range, I'd want them moving all of the time. Yes, the plasma cannons are wonderful against DSing termies, but that's why you have a demolisher cannon. I'd go with versitility and add those HB sponsons.
cheers

Thanks for the comments thus far!
I also found the LR sponson thread but having a sponson debate in the context of an actual army seems productive as well.

rryannn - Your comments are good, but I just don't feel like hiding almost 10% of the army for morale purposes is a good use of points. I'll see what I can do about swapping around HWs to fit the lascannons into that AT platoon.

ether dude - It seems like a shame to have two demolishers with 3x HBs when at least one of them doesn't take advantage of the heavier sponsons.
It would then seem like a pair of them would be a big waste, since two LRBTs would be more versatile for 20pts less.

You don't really need all that many Lascannons at 1000 points. Furthermore, get ACs rather than ML's. Against everything but AV13 the AC's are better, and the cost difference is 0. Ditch the AT squad - any Lascannons can be taken care of by the two Demolishers.

Get a standard bearer!!!

Smoke is a bit of a waste on the Demolishers. Extra Armour on the other hand, that keeps you moving. Ditch the Power Weapon. He's a T3 I3 character who will never swing. It's 5 points better spent elsewhere. The HW's in the command squads could also be a problem, as is the AT Squad, a nice tempting target that isn't hard to kill. Nice lot of VP's at this leve too. 

Were I to rework the list I'd take:

Doctrines = COD + Drop Troops + Iron Discipline

CHQ - 81 Points
JO w/Honorifica & Iron Discipline
Vet w/Standard
3 Lasgunners

Command Platoon #1 - 63 Points
JO w/Iron Discipline
1 Lasgunner
3 Guardsmen w/Flamers

Infantry Squad #1 - 85 Points
Autocannon + Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad #2 - 85 Points
Autocannon + Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad #3 - 85 Points
Autocannon + Plasma Gun

Command Platoon #2 - 63 Points
JO w/Iron Discipline
1 Lasgunner
3 Guardsmen w/Flamers

Infantry Squad #4 - 76 Points
Heavy Bolter + Flamer

Infantry Squad #4 - 76 Points
Heavy Bolter + Flamer

Demolisher #1 - 193 Points
Demolisher Cannon + Lascannon + X2 Plasma Cannons + Extra Armour + Smoke Launchers

Demolisher #1 - 193 Points
Demolisher Cannon + Lascannon + X2 Plasma Cannons + Extra Armour + Smoke Launchers

Total Points = 1000 Points
Total Models = 67 (65 Infantry & 2 Vehicles)

The Smoke Launchers are there as I had 6 points left over. 65 men is a respectable number at 1000 points. Furthermore, the 2 HB/Flamer squads give you a nice 20 wound buffer to take an enemy assault unit. Then charge in with the other 30, and you'll fight off anything short of Terminators.

BYE

Just as an update to this thread: last night I put my list up there to the test ( minus the AT squad and two MLs were replaced by ACs ), and used the leftover points to use the Carapace Armor doctrine on everyone that was left. I also DSed the HQ squad.
Needless to say, I lost miserably against my friend's Infantry-Tau army. By the end of Turn 2 I had lost more than 50% of my forces. By the end of Turn 5 I only had one scoring unit left ( for Seek and Destroy mission purposes ), so I forfeited.

NOTES FROM THE BATTLE:
-Carapace Armor is such a huge waste of points. Guardsmen are supposed to die, and are supposed to get as many men in there as possible.
-2x Defensive Demos wasn't very effective - I only had one tank fire off both the LC and the PC on the same turn. 1x Defensive Demo and 1x Dakka Demo would have been much more helpful and mobile.
-DSing more than 3x Flamers just means that one of the flamers didn't get to shoot because his template ended up over friendly units.
-DSing the CHQ is just slowed.
-The Standard would have been INVALUABLE as ( once again ) I had two squads break and run off the board.
-DSing remnant squads with plasma might be a really good way to break up enemy formations. If nothing else, it'll make him waste some time firing for 40 pts. It's kinda small, but hopefully you'd be in rapid fire range anyway.
-ACs were more dangerous than I thought they'd be
-Power weapons on every JO might have been helpful, since every game I've played at least 1 JO has made it into CC for whatever reason.
-Kroot were a real pain, seeing out of woods farther than I could see into them; I was thinking about taking 3x Ratlings ( 33 pts ) simply for the purpose of denying a good infiltrate spot to the other player. Good idea?

Also, does anyone have good ideas for dealing with Jump Suits? They were a real pain the entire game.

To comment on some of your observations:

-Demolishers aren't the best tank for the guard for every circumstance. To rely on the short range of the demolisher cannon will often put them in risk of enemy fire. Regular lemans russes should be a mainstay in a guard army, with demolishers added for extra support vs. MEQ. Against your friends infantry tau, demolishers are wasted pts. just becuase the increase of strength and AP doesn't equal any benefits in game. You still instant kill on 2+, but with a demolisher you'll have to move to get that shot, while a regular russ can start the bombardment on Turn 1.

-DS'ing the CHQ is never a good idea, they should be used to help keep all of your line squads in check. Also, get a standard bearer!!

-3 flamers in a PHQ is the optimum number. any more than 3, and you're wasting pts., any less than 3 and you're not effective enough.

- You're on the right track thinking about the ds'ing remnants squads, but alot of people deep strike 5 man squads of veterans with 3 special weapons, either plasma or meltas. The increased BS and low cost make these types of squads very effective.

-Carapace Armor is such a huge waste of points. Guardsmen are supposed to die, and are supposed to get as many men in there as possible.

Yes. It is. For every 3 squads you give Carapce Armour to you could be buying a whole extra squad! 40 men with 5+ saves are better than 30 men with 4+ saves. Furthermore, Guard should always be in cover, getting a 5+ or better cover save. Furthermore, if you really want to protect them, for half the points of Carapace Armour you can take Cameleoline, which increases their cover save, which is perfect as you should be in cover anyway!

-2x Defensive Demos wasn't very effective - I only had one tank fire off both the LC and the PC on the same turn. 1x Defensive Demo and 1x Dakka Demo would have been much more helpful and mobile.

Don't ditch them yet. Demolishers are very good tanks. You just ran into the one army that has no problems with AV14 - Tau, with their nasty Railguns.

-DSing more than 3x Flamers just means that one of the flamers didn't get to shoot because his template ended up over friendly units.

They're more useful as counter-assault, where they can rush forward in a line and send out all four templates.

-DSing the CHQ is just slowed

Yeah, it is. Your CHQ should be 81 points, and hiding.

-The Standard would have been INVALUABLE as ( once again ) I had two squads break and run off the board.

Am I allowed to say 'I told you so'?

-DSing remnant squads with plasma might be a really good way to break up enemy formations. If nothing else, it'll make him waste some time firing for 40 pts. It's kinda small, but hopefully you'd be in rapid fire range anyway.

Remnants are way too expensive for a single BS3 special weapon. You can't afford it at this points level. You can spend 75 points - just 35 more - and get 3 Deep Striking BS4 special weapons.

ACs were more dangerous than I thought they'd be

They are exceptionally good weapons, and perfect for low points games.

-Power weapons on every JO might have been helpful, since every game I've played at least 1 JO has made it into CC for whatever reason.

Again, I have to disagree here. It's a T3 I3 W1 model. He will very rarley ever get to swing, and when he does, it's 3 attacks, of which 1-2 will hit and maybe you get a wound. You could kill half a marine a turn. Not worth the 5 points. Also, consider who you were fighting - Tau - anything in HTH is better than them, so a power weapon vs Tau seems like a good idea, but as this list would have to be capable of beating anyone, not just Tau, save the 5 points for something more useful.

-Kroot were a real pain, seeing out of woods farther than I could see into them; I was thinking about taking 3x Ratlings ( 33 pts ) simply for the purpose of denying a good infiltrate spot to the other player. Good idea?

That's an interesting use of 33 points. Unfortunately it relies on getting to set up Infiltrators first. Ratlings are still junk though. You'd be better off taking those Hardened Veterans I talked about. They can Deep Strike when need be, but if you come across someone you need to counter-infiltrate against, H-Vets have Infiltrate as standard.

BYE

It's cool telling me "I TOLD YOU SO" ;-) I just seem to have a knack for learning things by watching my guardsmen die. And I most certainly AM NOT losing the Demos, since I own them ( because my wallet would stab me ), but like I said, a Dakka Demo ( 3x HBs ) is something I'd like to try next. Really though, my worst problem was a total lack of strategic planning - I spent all my time trying to hide rather than take the initiative. Also, I'm definitely going to bring some Hardened Vets to the party next time.

And on a side note, I laughed when I saw what GW packaged in the Demo box - all the parts for a LRBT, with cast parts to add a Demo Cannon and sponsons. Oh, except that they didn't include any HB sponsons. At least changing back and forth from Demo to LRBT might be doable, with magnets and such. The differences between the MKIV Demo and the old-school one I have are rather striking as well.
( Let's hope I didn't infringe on trademark by saying that 0=-) )

Standards are a great use of points in an IG army. If you want to keep your HQ squad away from the front line, might I suggest a morter in it? It's the cheapest heavy weapon tied with a heavy bolter and doesn't require LOS. Plus that odd failed pinning test might just come your way. Don't really on it too much though.

Have you also considered Light Infantry and Stormtrooper Doctrines over the Drop Troopers? I ask this as you can alway use the Stormtroopers to deep strike down to deal with any pesky artillery or Tau Jump troopers? Two plasma or meltaguns per squad may make a bit of a mess of a Crisis suit. Or an infiltrating unit with missile/plasma? They may not have to be set up too far from your own lines, but the ability to see where youopponant has put his guns before setting yours up is very handy.

Hopefully I may have given you a little food for thought

Posted By Avatar111x on 01/21/2007 9:04 AM
Have you also considered ... Stormtrooper Doctrines over the Drop Troopers? I ask this as you can alway use the Stormtroopers to deep strike down to deal with any pesky artillery or Tau Jump troopers?

Why would you do that when Hardened Veterans cost the same as Storm Troopers yet pack more firepower?

5 H-vets with 3 BS4 guns costs 75 points. 5 Stormies w/2 BS4 guns and Deep Strike also costs 75 points. The H-Vets are more effective.

BYE

Furthermore this is a 1000 point list, things like Light Infantry are often too expensive, and things like Mortars are points better spent elsehwere. Not to mention Motars are junk, and should never be taken anyway...

BYE

I'm just offering a solution to a problem.  Jump packing Tau are a lot easy to bring down with morters and deep striking units.  It's all down to how you want to play the game and I'm not going to tell you how to do that. 

Also if you want a counter punch command sqaud - load them up with power fists and commissars (and evisorator armed priests too), but expect them to be expensive.  If you want a unit that stays away from the front line for leadership purposes, then I can't see whats wrong with giving them a morter.  At least it allows them to contribute something to the front line fighting in terms of firepower.  And you never know when that lucky pinning roll may come up.

IG counter assault units need to be cheap and expendible. That is why PHQ's w/ flamers and RR's are very popular. Dropping so many points into already expensive, T3 characters is almost like giving the enemy victory pts.

Exactly my point. My CHQ is tooled up for leadership and nothing else. That's why I take a morter - because I want him nowhere near the fighting. But as I said, it down to style of player.

Also I apologise about the Storm Troopers. Forgot we are talking drop troopers here and the ability for their veterans to deep strike. Must read Codex closer (d'oh!)

Personally, I have found that against tau I tend to deep strike all of my units, especally if playing reservers and I have to wait for my tanks to come in. Normally with guard you need to be firing from turn 1 to whittle down your opponent. Against tau they can sit at 25 inches and whittle you down. Deep strike in, and double tap the broadsides, and crisis suits, then next turn charge the firewarriors. Kroot are best handled by your flamer command squads, just pray when you roll the scatter die.

Also on a side not, I only have heavy bolters on my tanks, including the demolisher. 9 heavy bolter shots on the move = 42 inch range = 4 dead fire warriors on average. Depending on how your opponent is spread out this might be a better option then firing the ord.

Yeah, I'd agree that a mortar is indeed crap unless you've got more mortars than are really worth their points to begin with. But I'd agree with Avatar that it's a shame to have to hide 8,10% of the overall force setup and get no offensive punch out of them whatsoever, especially at the 1000pt level. Take the Tau for example, and they might spend 20pts on bonding to keep themselves in the fight, but even so that would be 60 more points they could use to kill guardsmen with as opposed to the 81pts I need to spend to keep my men in the fight. I'm not saying that I don't like guard, but it's a shame that CHQ tends to have to choose between morale and firepower.

Of course you don't need to take a bare minimum CHQ. Tool them up however you like. You'll see me suggesting keeping CHQs out of site, but in my most recent game, my CHQ killed a necron with just it's lasguns!!!

So after listening to all the input, here's a revised listing

982 Points

Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Deep Strike

CHQ
(86) Command Squad - 1 Jr. Officer ( ID, HI, Power Weapon ), 3 Guardsmen, Standard Bearer

Elite #1
(75) Hardened Vets - 1 Sergeant 4 Veterans ( 3x Melta )

Troop Unit #1
(60) Command Squad - 1 Jr. Officer ( ID )+4 Guardsmen (Missile Launcher )
(75) Squad #1 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (Autocannon, **)
(75) Squad #2 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (Autocannon, **)

Troop Unit #2
(69) Command Squad - 1 Jr. Officer ( ID )+4Flamers
(75) Squad #2 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (Autocannon, **)
(75) Squad #1 - 1 Sergeant 9 Guardsmen (Autocannon, **)

Heavy Unit #1 - 190pts
1x Leman Russ Demolisher ( Hull-Mounted Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons,
Extra Armor )

Heavy Unit #2 170pts
1x Leman Russ Demolisher ( Hull-Mounted Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter Sponsons,
Extra Armor )

** = GL or PG
I can't decide between GLs and PGs. I know how good PGs are, but firing the GLs on the move is nice and the templates would help against hordes. No flamers in the line squads because I'm not really big on charging with my guardsmen, even though i know that statistically they'd cause more wounds than they would by shooting. The PW is on the JO w/ HI because a) it might even get used sometime and b) it makes him LOOK heroic instead of just saying oh, yeah, he's got this medal that you cant see on my model at all. It just feels lame to me to award a guy the HI without making him look like he earned it.
And that random ML is in there because I built it before I really started getting serious about army construction ;-)
I doubt I'd be able to beat a Tau list even now ( unless I built a regular LRBT instead of a LRD for the Heavy #2 ), but otherwise how would it fare?

Hmmm... I'm having a hard time deciding to recommend plasma over grenade launchers. Vs. Tau, both will instant kill firewarriors, the grenade launcher is 2 pts. cheaper, and the plasma gun risks the gunner's life. Your two demolishers will be shooting at battlesuits, with the vets deepstriking to take care of any tanks. Based solely on versatility, I'd have to go with the plasma gun because as your range of opponents widens, you'll find the AP2 of the plasma gun very helpful. In the end you're only paying 8 pts. more for the plasma, which can still fire on the move.

If you want to keep the power weapon as a just in case option, I'd move it into the PHQ with the flamers as that squad would be more willing to engage in CC.

The honorifica imperialis is given to heroes, and heroes don't neccessarily need to lead from the front. It is very fluffy to say that he is a hero because his presence keeps his men from breaking.

Rryannn, those are definitely fair comments. The PW in the PHQ would probably be more sensible.
What I could do is use PGs in the army, and then add a lascannon onto the dakka LRD to make things an even 1000pts, and save myself from converting the lascannon to a HB.

Plasma.

All the way Plasma.

Grenade Launchers don't do anything you need them to. There are better guns for killing infantry, and better guns for killing heavy infantry/light-to-med vehicles. Plus, the S7 plasma guns go with the S7 Autocannons.

Trust me on this.

Plasma. Plasma. Plasma.

And no power weapons. You won't ever swing. Buy things you'll use.

BYE

...ah, I'll still be attached to my 70 point CHQ with COD, HI and power sword...with I5 and LD10 he can pretend to be an actual character instead of a squishy human...but listen to H. People use MEQs, and that is why almost every army has access to plasma guns. Plasma is the equalizer of the 40th millenium - whether you are a grot or a Carnifex, it will probably wound you. Save stuff like mortars and grenade launchers for very strange metagames or less typical matchups - i.e. DE/some Tau.