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I've recently returned to 40k after a year-long break. I've got a fair amount of Orks built up, and since I'm a university senior my money is tight so it's either play Orks or don't play at all.

I don't mind losing at all. However, today I went to a WH club I've heard about for the first time, and pretty much got massacred in a take and hold gamma game against a tau player. Our 1500 point armies looked something like this:

Orks: Warboss with trukk boyz, Painboss with cyborks in trukk, 2 18ish strong mobs of sluggas, a small mob of shootas with maxed big shootas, looted demolisher, two killer kans, and a 9-man mob of stormboyz.

Tau: Shas'o with a LOT of guns, two Fire Warrior squads, a squad of stealth suits, two individual broadsides, two snipers with three drones each, a large squad of Kroot, a small squad of Kroot with jump packs, and another large squad of Kroot Hounds.

In a nutshell, he won first turn, we had night fighting first turn, he managed to hit everything while I completely whiffed in first turn shooting, his jump pack Kroot got charge on my stormboyz, and 80% of my points were gone by turn two. I threw in the towel after the fourth turn when my only model left was the shoota nob in the middle of the map. The only unit that actually got a charge, the Painboss and his cyborks, got whipped by the 30ish kroot/hounds' I5. The way I saw it, he vastly outgunned me and even my close combat proficency didnt matter much when his kroot always hit first.  Come to think of it, I didn't kill a single Tau that game - the only casaulties my opponent took were the kroot killed by my painboss's squad in CC. I also took out his jump pack squad, but only after I counter-charged them with sluggas after they wiped out my stormboyz.

Was this unusual, or is that common for footslogging orks those days?

First of all, I think you ran into someone using some "optional" rules.  It doesn't say ANTHING about jump packs on kroot in my Tau Empire Codex. 

Some advice
1-Ebay some 3rd/2nd ed 40k rhinos, convert them into your trucks.  This can be both cheap and a lot of fun.  All you need is something to cut plastic with, orky looking weapons, some promo credit cards (poor man's plasicard), and lots of glue.  A model car kit or two and they will look awesome!  Speed freaks are considered THE ork list now.  You can convert rocket launching buggies in the same way.

2-Footslogging orks are all about 3 rokkit launcha's per unit of boys (2 on boys one on nob)

3-Ask said Tau player what the capitol of Thailand is.  Punch him between the legs.

That Tau player is a complete cheat. Demand to see the White Dwarf where he saw the Chapter Approved on Kroot mercenaries. Then, point out to him that Kroot Mercs, by definition, are Kroot who seek work OUTSIDE the Tau empire - and in fact have a quite specific list of employers, including Orks. Their stats upgrades are also illegal unless they are selected as a stand-alone army. Finally, Kroot have basic I3, with the Fast mutation it goes up to 4. The distraction afforded by his sudden enlightenment ought to give you an opportunity to implement ninjajuicer's third suggestion. Use a roll of quarters.

Orks do ok. We have like 5 ork players in the campaign.....right now their on the downside of the campaign, but still(we also have 5 marine and one eldar player, its like playing Armegeddon again)

Jumppack Kroot don't exist, but he could have been using the rules for Vulture kindred, which have wings and are like jump infantry. They're fragile and expensive as hell anyway. They're in the mercs army list, and as noted, Tau can't use the Kroot Mercs rules.

Orks can be a tough army to use well, and mobile/skimmer armies (like the most popular Tau tournament formula) are a particular problem, but Kroot shouldn't be particularly difficult. They cost 7-8pts per model, have S4 and T3 (as opposed to S3 T4 for Orks), and I3, which beats you, but they have one fewer attack per model, which on average should give you the win in most combats.

The following army is about the most "cheesed" I've ever seen footslogging orks. If you're not winning much, more practice and gradually making your army look more and more like the following should help.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/17/postid/121694/view/topic/Default.aspx

Calm down everyone. It's possible the Tau player was NOT cheating.

1. Scyler said the Kroot/hounds got him on I5. According to page 37 of the Tau Codex, Kroot hounds are I5. And with 2 attacks at S4, they can do some damage to Orks.

2. It's very possible that the "small squad of Kroot with jump packs" were simply stand-ins for Vespid. It's possible the other player just didn't want to buy Vespid or thinks they are ugly models (which they are). Vespid have wings. Maybe the other player should have clairified that the Kroot w/ jetpacks were just Vespid stand-ins.

Yeah i have too Agree with 2112 they were probaaly stand in models those vespids are pretty ulgy looking and they would do a world of hurt on Orks

I've found footslogging Orks to be pretty good in COD. Speedfreaks and feral orks as well in 'normal' 40k.

Yakface took his footslogging orks to some early 4th ed. tournaments and did pretty well with them, iirc. Do a little searchy in the 40k AL forums and see if his lists don't come up.

yes i have too say last time i battle a footslogging ork force i was playing 1k sons and i was out number5 to one .
I thur down a lot of dakka at those orks and those gretchen just soaked it up it was a snake bite army too lots of rockets and burnas I end up with one 1kson in the middle of a green tide of countless models, I killed off maybe 75 models but he still had over a hundred left at 1850 it was insane.....

Check out my mini-tactica about footslogging Orks:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/18/tpage/2/view/Topic/postid/127291/Default.aspx

It's a first draft tactica so there are a bunch of typos (and the text editor has mangled it in some places) but overall it should give you a good idea on how to win.

Overall, I have to say that your army sounds pretty solid for a footslogging Ork army, so it just may be that you need some more practice with the 4th edition rules. Besides that some missions and army matchups can be particularly tough. . .Tau being one of those espeically if there wasn't a bunch of cover on the table.

Being a Tau player myself I would never take vespid against orks. AP3 weapons are lost on them and plus they suck in CQC. Kroot on the other hand I'd take a million. [0r 25 cos that's all I have.]

Night fight tho should have helped you unless [like stated] he had miricle rolls. I played night fight against orks last week and couldn't see any of them until they hit charge range. Then it was horrifying, never seen tau die more completely. Cept that time a blood angels death squad hit me. Damn, you should have seen those tau limbs fly. Lol

Over all it just seems like pratice is all you need. Seeing as you play orks getting wiped out would be that bad. If my Space Marine Company got wiped then it would be a great loss for the universe [depending on your POV] but there's always more orks.

Was this unusual

NO

is that common for footslogging orks those days?

YES

You have a few options:

#1 fight at a disadvatage and accept loosing

#2 Sell the army and buy another

#3 Quit playing 40K for now (change is innevitable)

I suggest #2, sorry if this sounds flip, not the intent, but a lot of this thread have skirted the isue and I want to give it to you strait.  Orks are crippled, dont bother.

EDIT:

#4 find a friend who has, or is willing to build, some of the bad units in 40k, like Ogryns and IG mortars, or some obscure underpowered units, (that's what I play with vs. my Ork player friends and we have a ball!)

Nah, play for fun over the next year, without spending up on anything, then grab the new codex in 2008 and only then get serious (or give up and try another army). No one knows how radical the new ork rule revisions will be - e.g. will there be changes to the basic stats line or weapons - but I have no doubt that a week after the codex is released, all the non-orks will be whining over how over-powered the new orks are...

I long for that day, and I don't even play orks!

At least, not right now.

You could always try the Feral Ork list. You will have a larger selection of Orks that shoot with BS 3 but take a reduction in WS to 3. Plus Madboyz are all fearless and won't run away. Squiggoths can add in additional firepower to the army. You can find the list here http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/orks/gaming/feral_orks/default.htm

Take a look in the batrep section, there's a guy that did well at the UK GT with an ork list. Placed 2nd (out of 150). It's not really a "normal" ork list, tho, more shootyness.

You opponent didnt even need to cheat by using the Kroot mercenary list rules. Tau vs Orks is a mismatch anyway. Pulse rifles and burst cannon love orks, while most orks are relatively slow. KOS being a notable exception.

2112 says: Calm down everyone. It's possible the Tau player was NOT cheating.

Sorry I dont buy this. Yes he could have subbed Vespid, but Kroot hounds as a unit on their own are available for Kroot mercenaries, but not in the Tau list. They also cant logically be substitutions for anythings else in the list.

Ok, first things first never use a unit of storm boys as small as 9, 15 should be the smallest. I knew they're pricey but they're still orks and unless you have room for casualties its perfectly normal for them to take a world of hurt in combat or shooting. The second is to scrap the shootas, its not that they can't be effective, but the need to have much greater number to be effective.

Orks are very viable in 4th ed, just a little tricky. I've been playing for over a decade and play Orks, BA, BT, IG, SB, IW DE, and Kroot. My Orks are all Death Skulls. With the clan rules I can take a mek instead of a nob for free in each troop unit. Lootas are troops and looted vehicles lose their 1 only as long as they are different vehicles.

I usually use 3-5 units or 20 slugga boys with 3 burnas and a mek with kustom force field. Watch a Tau players face when he realizes every trrop unit gets a 5+ cover save in open ground. I also use a looted basilisk and/or leman russ depending on the situation. Also check out the squiggoths in the feral ork list, cause I'm told dex orks can take them too. Orks are still a force to be feared, but require a little more skill than I think they have previously. Good luck and Waaaghhhhh!

FYI Codex Orks or even Ork Klanz can't use a Feral Ork Squiggoth, only Feral orks can take it. Also according to rumors don't expect Squiggoths in the new dex, they're going back to FW only.

Orks have a couple of tricks that can help a ton (Deathskullz with 3 Pie Plates works wonders against MEQ armies), but in general you're going to have a rough time if you play against competitive lists.

I have an Imperial Armour update that lists gargantuan squiggoths as available to both Ork and Feral Ork armies. I am assuming the Feral Ork list supercedes this then? It would help if GW posted FAQs on this stuff, rather than just the stock dexs. After paying for a rulebook I shouldn't have to call up the roolz boyz for clarification.

Posted By WarsmithDave on 01/26/2007 4:35 PM
I have an Imperial Armour update that lists gargantuan squiggoths as available to both Ork and Feral Ork armies. I am assuming the Feral Ork list supercedes this then? It would help if GW posted FAQs on this stuff, rather than just the stock dexs. After paying for a rulebook I shouldn't have to call up the roolz boyz for clarification.

You don't. The Feral Ork army list has its own version of the Squiggoth.

The Imperial Armor Squiggoths have different rules and can indeed be included in regular Ork armys too.

 

 

Sweet, thanks yakface.  I've only used it once, but in big games is excellent if only for the shock factor the amount of fire it draws form Da Boyz. 

"Waaagh on Waayn!"  "Waaagh on Gorth!"

I feel that they are underpowered.
I can still win with them, but as time has gone by I've found it harder and harder.
I really do have to rely on my opponent making a few mistakes that I can capitalise on, or I will lose.
It's disheartening, but I keep going.
Worst was during the summer versus Gaurd with grey knight allies and three pie plates.
My rokkits pinged off his tanks, my boyz died in droves to ordinance and the grey knights hosed the remainder from 24" before I could close. By the time my pitiful remnants of a force closed with the gaurd gunline, they were easily obliterated by lasgun fire.

Recently, I've been playing a really intelligent tyranid player. I've been losing massively, but hey, I'll beat him eventually. (Latest idea is small shoota boy squads with 3 BS, warbikes, buggies and Kans and Dread moving forward with sluggas and warboss with skarboyz and a looted russ. Hopefully da plan will work!)
I did once win a turn four massacre against nids, but my opponent was stupid and had never fought orks before.
Warbikes are a very powerful unit. Warboss should be used either as you are using him, or in a mob of footsloggers- a Nobs bodygaurd is a massive points sink that can be easily destroyed these days.. Apart from that, may the Waagh be with you.

Btw, I'm sick of people telling me my army is "just as competitive as others", because it really isn't. Any of the combinations people suggest would be seen as beardy in any other army. When you're palying against a good player with a strong list you can expect to be:
1. Shot to bits by gaurd and then counter assaulted by their allies, who will maul you in assault due to your weakened state and their higher I.
2.Shot to bits by eldar and then counter assaulted by aspect warriors. Skimming tanks will destroy your vehichles and despite pouring firepower into a wraithlord it will still neutralise an entire mob of boys.
3.Shot to bits by tau, who's skimming tanks are fairly untouchable and will sit out of range of your tank killers blowing them up. Kroot will probably die in assault if you get the charge though.
4.Shot to bits by Chaos, and then counter assaulted by daemons and chaos marines. You may have a better chance here if you play it smart. (I find marines the easiest foe to beat)
5.Shot to bits by Marines, and then you'll probably kill them in assault because most aren't used to Orks and underestimated them. Fear the veteran marine player who chooses targets well, the battle will be grueling.
6.Shot to bits by shooty nids, eaten by close combat nids. Unless your opponent is a moron and comes at you piecemeal that is.
7.Engaged in a vicious and brutal close combat kill-a-thon against Dark Eldar.

Warbosses are overcosted and underpowered, as are mega armoured Nobs and nobs mobz.
Basic boys die in droves to any sort of firepower.
Transports pop when shot with even anti troop weaponry.
Your grots will weather one round of fire against an intelligent opponent and then break and vanish.
You Kustom Force fields will save some boys, but ordinance will easily counter it.

So really and truely, you are underpowered. I think however that the other races should be powered down, rather than powering orks up. The list can be fun, and has lots of options, but most people will tell you to avoid almost all of them...

Da Boss, I think that is the best objective assesment of Orks I have ever seen written.  It breathes of the lessons of experience, and I commend your obvious cavalier attitude towards the codex, and maintaining playing with it.

I salute you!

Here is to hoping that one day the Orks get a balanced codex, and some new models, for surely, they have always been a colorful staple of the 40k universe!

The one thing I can't agree with...

It really doesn't matter how powerful the armies are, so long as there's parity. No point in nerfing all the Codices, which are relatively well balanced now, when you can just fix the Orks. It's a matter of fixing one book, or fixing over a dozen.

For example, if you say that everything in the Space Marines Codex costs twice as much, you just nerfed Space Marines horribly.  But if you double the cost of everything in the game, nothing changes, the numbers just get larger.  Everything is equally nerfed.  So what's the point?

Orks need powering up, to even aproach parity,...

Taken individually, is there even a single powerful unit in the entuire Ork list? The rival of a monolith, or a landspeeder tornado squadron or the like? Clearly not.

While I thinks Phryxis point makes sense practically speaking Da Bosses point is also key, obviously many of the codexes were written with a differnet handicap level, for example the limitations on all the flavored marines compared to the vanilla lists or the DIY styles.  No codex is played in a vacuum, so they all ought to have about the same amount of effectiveness, and advantage should always be temepered with risk.

I think the Templars and Tyranids codexes are about right, not to awful, some unique and effective special rules, but some achiles heals and limits too. Lets hope the Orks at least get something on those lines.

I agree about the Templars.  They are still good enough to get a top 5 at gamesday chicago, but not good enough to where people cry cheese when they see them.  Actually, I will admit that 3rd ed Templar Assault marines were...a little...errrrm...broken.   =)

I think orks do need a power up.  Even in third ed, they were considered underpowered relative to mid-power level codices like Imp. Guard and Space Marines, to say nothing of powerful codicces: Eldar, Kraftworld, Space Wolves, and Armegeddon (Templars and Speed Freaks).  I don't see many problems with most ork units, but I do see everything as little over-costed. 

I don't see massive tweaks as nessessary, just give them something disgusting (assault cannon) and give them some options (like codex marines) and the problem will be fixed.

I think allowing boyz to take 'eavy armour for 5 points a pop, changing choppas to +1S instead of 4+ reducers and allowing shootas and choppas in the same mob would go a long way (S4 shooting and 2-3 S4 attacks would make for a very versitile unit for 10 points a pop). The weakest thing in an Ork army is the basic boy, mostly because of his low strength and piss poor armour. Give players the option to change that and you've instantly made Orks more competitive. Then a simple wargear option like a tellyporta for 50 points or so allowing deep strike and the re-introduction of some oldies like wierdboys and boar or squig riders and you're away- they'd be like assault gaurd.
Giving them one uber unit is not something I agree with really. Although mega armour should come with the 5+ invunerable save and a kustom job of choice on the shootas for the points it costs.

Not a big deal, and I don't see why it has taken GW nearly a decade to figure it out.
Cheers Augustus by the way. I'm hanging in here, and trying hard not to succumb to bitterness.

I don't think that the basic boy needs to be S4 to be effective, or that they need the option to get such significantly better armour for such a huge points cost. The choppa is originally an ork rule, and I'd like them to keep it. The same goes for bad armor saves, low S that goes up with each "rank" (ork, nob, warboss). Those are all characteristics of orks that they should keep, along with technological inventiveness and wonky science, some cunning, and a love of fighting.

Rather than making huge improvements and changes to the ork units, I'd rather see smaller rules tweaks for little or no cost. Some version of fleet (whether they automatically get it, or it requires some wargear for the nob, or it's based on a waagh! test to charge forward in the assault phase whether a target unit is available or not) to help them move somewhat faster. Perhaps some version of FNP (again, automatic, given by waagh! test, or given by nob wargear) to help a bit with durability. Anyhow, you get the gist of my thoughts.

To be back on theme, I think that any ork player who shows up to the table with 100+ boys and some gretchin should do pretty well. There just aren't all that many armies out there who have the ability to deal with that many orks.