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    A player at my local store is under the impresion that you can premeasure when you deepstrike. This sounded abit off to me, but as I beat him, it didnt matter. However, out of curiosity, I looked it up. There is no mention on way or another. All it says is "place one model where you would like the unit to arrive".
   
    Personally, I see this as saying, "just place, do not measure", however, since it does not specifically say this, I have to real backing to argue. To me there is no danger with the rule if you can make sure the 12" around where you wish to land is perfectly clear.

    Am I wrong, or has this player been cheating (or perhaps rather just misinformed).

As stated many, many, many, many, many times in the forums, 40k is a permissive rules set; If the rules don't say you can, then you can't. Hence, no premeasuring D.S.

bull

i alway make sure i am 12-14" away from anything that will kill me when i DS unless i use my homers

 

the only restriction for pre-measuring is shooting, unless your GK with a targeter.

 

not that you could not get around it anyway by watching shooting distances in the previous fire phase

 

 

i also find GW being designers in an british way view things with intent while many american players look for hard and clear rules which is why we complain about thier rules writing so much. we want a clear rule they say dice for it.

Posted By mughi3 on 01/28/2007 6:42 PM
the only restriction for pre-measuring is shooting, unless your GK with a targeter.

It's not a restriction that you should be looking for, but a rule that actually allows you to pre-measure in the first place.

The rules tell you what you can do. If they don't say you can do something, you can't do it.

So, did you have a page reference for the rule that allows you to measure before placing Deep Strikers?

 

do you have one to the rule that says i cannot?

the only pre-measure restriction says you cannot pre-measure shooting, you can do lots of "pre"measurements when you move a unit in the movement phase to decide where you want to go. there is no rule that says you can do that or cant do that,  but people would think you were crazy if you told them they couldn't measure the distance and direction they wanted to move until they decided thats the only way they want to go

even GW says that if thier is a question not covered in the rules-dice off for it

so if you have a problem with "pre" measuring the DS and want to make an issue out of it do what GW says to do-dice off for it.  or if your at a tournament ask a judge for a decision at that event.

 

nobody i have every played has had issues with measuring the DS zone on the rare occasion i use it and not bounce off a homer or land in a big open area.

 

mabey we are just a bunch of friends having to much fun actually playing the game instead of finding ways to @#$! with our opponant.

That's exactly the rule the Dakka league used while I was playing; you couldn't choose a direction, realize that you couldn't get to the cover/target/whatever, and then choose another direction. And it's perfectly reasonable, since your models don't have the god's-eye view that the player does.

Posted By mughi3 on 01/28/2007 8:00 PM
do you have one to the rule that says i cannot?

Yeah, it's on page 42, right beside the rule that says that my bolt-pistol equipped marine can't choose once per game to fire an auto-hitting S10 AP1 Ordnance Barrage.

The rules simply don't work like that.

If the rules don't say you can do something, you can't. "The rules don't say I can't" is never a valid argument for doing something.

If you can't find a rule that says it's allowed, it's not allowed.

Posted By mughi3 on 01/28/2007 8:00 PM
 but people would think you were crazy if you told them they couldn't measure the distance and direction they wanted to move until they decided thats the only way they want to go

That's actually exactly how the group I game with has been playing it for more than 10 years now...

Posted By mughi3 on 01/28/2007 8:00 PM
  Even GW says that if thier is a question not covered in the rules-dice off for it

So you would let my Marine take his single shot if we diced for it?

Somehow I doubt it...

They tell us to dice for unclear rules, not for things that the rules just don't allow in the first place.

It seems to me that this idea of the 40k rules being a permissive rule set is thrown around a bit too much.  There are plenty of rules in the book that are restrictive.  The movement rules don’t tell you <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">where[/i] you <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">can[/i] move; they just explain how movement works, and then tell you where you <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">can’t[/i] move (through a space narrower than your base, within 1” of an enemy model, etc.).

 

Am I allowed to deep strike into difficult terrain?  The rules don’t <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">permit[/i] me to.  But they list several places where I <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">cannot[/i] deep strike.  Of course we assume that we can deep strike our models anywhere else even though we are not specifically permitted to.

 

Another example – The rules don’t seem to actually allow us to take multiple units of the same type (e.g., more than one tactical squad), at least not in the codices that I have.  They only tell us when we are limited in the number we can take.

 

The idea of permissive rules can get particularly silly as we move away from specific game dynamics.

 

Am I permitted to take 3 hours deciding where to move my pieces in one turn?  Of course I am allowed, even though the rules don’t specifically permit me to.

 

In my opinion, the idea of pre-measuring deepstrike straddles the line between specific rules and more general behavior.  I would probably agree that it’s against the spirit of the rules.  But the shooting and assault rules are written in such a way that the dangers of pre-measuring are explicated.  Why write the rules in such a way if pre-measuring would need to be permitted to be done at all?

 

Insaniak, I respect that your gaming group doesn’t allow the pre-measurement of movement.  It makes perfect sense to me as a house rule, for the exact reasons that Lord Sutekh pointed out.  But would you really <em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">insist[/i] that everyone play this way, stating that, as a permissive rule set, the rules effectively prohibit changing one’s mind after measuring possible movement directions?

 

And finally, where in the rule book does it say that the rule set is permissive?    (Boy, I’ll look stupid if it’s on page 36 )

Any set of game rules is permissive. That's not something that needs to be said in the rulebook... it's simply how game rules work, because the rules are what defines how the game works.

That doesn't mean that there are no rules saying you can't do certain things. It simply means that you can't do things that the rules don't say you can do, because those things fall outside the scope of the rules by simple virtue of not being included.

Basically, if it's not included in the rules, it's not a part of the game.


So far as Deep Strike is concerned, the rules say simply to place one model on the table in the position in which you wish it to arrive, and then they go on to detail how to determine the actual landing position.

Nowhere in that does it even hint that you can measure distances to other units, terrain features, or anything else, when placing that model.

The rules say to just place the model. So, all that you are allowed to do is place the model. There is no leeway to measure distances, any more than you can choose to place that model and then immediately shoot with it before bringing the rest of the models on.

The rules don't say you can do so, and so you can not.

 

But would you really <em style="">insist that everyone play this way, stating that, as a permissive rule set, the rules effectively prohibit changing one’s mind after measuring possible movement directions?

[/i]Not at all. The rules don't prohibit it, so I would never claim that they do so. If an opponent wanted to premeasure, I would simply ask for a rules reference that states that they can do so.

Just as I'm sure they would ask me for a reference if I tried to teleport a rhino from one side of the board to the other.

Here's the flip side..... is it legal to pre-measure a D.S. to make sure you are INSIDE 12", so you can ensure a rapidfire upon arrival? I know SEVERAL people who would take this risk if it were allowed, since the average scatter is going to be @ 7", any good mathhammer player could find the optimal range at which to place the D.S.'ing unit for rapidfiring success. Also, most vetereans can easily guess the range to the pre-measured enemy unit from his OTHER units on the board, using the information obtained through Deepstriking.

The rules specifically tell you when you can measure ranges between your units and your opponent's units. These are the ONLY times you measure the distance between those units.

I have to agree that you can NOT measure anything more than once.  And DS does not say anywhere that you may make a measurement to ensure your units safety.  If that were possible then what is the risk.

Same thing goes for movement I don't want my opponent to measure the exact radius of every unit he has to where it can move.  Once you have made a measurement you have to move there or shoot there (assuming its the shooting phase of course).  Anything else is cheating.

Swize, your concern is covered by a more precise understanding of how rules interact.

Overall the game consists of a lot of general rules, and then a bunch of special cases that explain how particular things fit into those general rules. The interaction of these two things allows you to find the place where the rules actually do tell you you can do things without saying it specifically. For example:



The rules say specifically that in order to deepstrike, you place the models on the table. Is the difficult terrain on the table? Yes it is--so in the absence of some specific restriction, the general rules say you can deepstrike into difficult terrain.



But the rules do say specifically that you can take, for example, up to 6 troop units. One unit of grunts is a troop, and then another unit of the same type of grunts is another troop. So the general rule says specifically that you can do this and, when there is no restriction, the general rules then in effect permit it.

Rules are written this way because, if it were necessary to enumerate every special case of everything, the codexes would be the size of unabridged dictionaries. Can you imagine just how many pages it would take to list all the different kinds of units that can take each piece of wargear from the wargear list (and in what combinations)? Instead the rules have a general rule that says, for example, IC's can take wargear. So one rule permits thousands of different possible combinations, even though it never specifically says anywhere that a librarian can take a lightning claw.

Do the rules forbid me from following you home and shagging your mum because you beat me? No. What about punching 75% of 40K players because they're rules loop holeing, power gaming dicks, forbidden? No. What about Petrol bombing all Tyranid players? Forbidden? Again no.

Should I do any of those things? No ['cept maybe the second one] I think most people should relax and think about what's intended and not find a way to *fudge* your opponent.

That being said - I'm going to go the other direction - I don't think premesuring deep strike should be allowed. The deep strike action is a risk and as such should remain so. Premeasuring the stike provides a Gods eye view of what going on that is not available in the heat of battle.

Also, I never thought about it but I never premeasured my movement. I always decided and then went that way before my measuring string ever hit the phelt.

Godspeed, Celtic Strike. You're one of the good ones.

Except for punching your fellow 40k players. 75% is thankfully not a ratio I can see as anything but amusing hyperbole.

If I didn't have exageration I wouldn't have anything.

eactly what i was trying to say

as per the rules until i say that i am done with the movement phase and start the shooting phase. it is still the movement phase where i move my models where i want them.  i can move my models when and where i want them (within terrain restrictons and such) , change my mind, move them in different orders etc....nowhere does it say i have to make a final decision where i am going to move before i masure it.

in some games i know specifically where i want to go with a unit, i measure it and move there. 

 in other games i will pull out the tape and measure off the distance i can possibly go, place it over the model(s) and see where it will get me then choose the best option. this is infact a game of strategy afterall.

 these are the ways i have moved models for years and it is the way everyone i have ever played with moves thier models.

 your house rules and narrow interpretation of the game makes me glad i do not play with some of you because i would not have a very fun game.  not in the aspect of winning or loosing mind you. some of the most entertaining games i have played i lost.  rather if you nitpicked every little thing that didn't fit your interpretation we would spend hourse just discussing/debating rules or lack there of....  i have watched games like that, even experienced a few with people more concerned about the "sport" aspect of the game VS the "fun" aspect of the game. those games were not even fun to watch much less play

Posted By mughi3 on 01/29/2007 8:05 PM
 i can move my models when and where i want them (within terrain restrictons and such) , change my mind, move them in different orders etc....

And the rules say that you can do this where, again?


The rules say that you can move you models up to their movement distance. Nowhere does it state, suggest, or even hint that you can chose to move them back and go in a different direction or order, or that you can measure all over the table before moving them.

It gives a specific action that you can perform: Move them up to their movement distance.

Posted By mughi3 on 01/29/2007 8:05 PM
rather if you nitpicked every little thing that didn't fit your interpretation we would spend hourse just discussing/debating rules or lack there of.

It never ceases to amuse me that people make so many assumptions on how other people play, based solely on how they discuss rules on an online forum.

For the record, in just over 13 years of playing 40K, I've never had a serious argument over the table, and honestly can't remember a rules dispute that lasted more than about 30 seconds before we just rolled for it.

While standing at the table, you're there to play a game. So I prefer to just get on with it and play the game. If my opponent has a different opinion of how an unclear rule is played, 9 times out of 10 I'll just say 'Sure, let's play that way' (The other time is a player being snotty about it, in which case they get no quarter).

Rules discussions, however, are for discussing the rules. That's their sole purpose. We discuss the rules so that we gain a better understanding of how they work.

And then we take from that what we want, and go on playing the game however we prefer...

Posted By mughi3 on 01/29/2007 8:05 PM

 it is still the movement phase where i move my models where i want them.  i can move my models when and where i want them (within terrain restrictons and such) , change my mind, move them in different orders etc....nowhere does it say i have to make a final decision where i am going to move before i masure it.

in some games i know specifically where i want to go with a unit, i measure it and move there. 

 in other games i will pull out the tape and measure off the distance i can possibly go, place it over the model(s) and see where it will get me then choose the best option. this is infact a game of strategy afterall.

 these are the ways i have moved models for years and it is the way everyone i have ever played with moves thier models.

Y'know Mughi, I tend to play the exact same way as you. But what you have to understand is that if you and your opponents allow each other to move this way (go back and change a unit's movement once they've already been moved) you are being allowed to do this by the sportsmanship of your opponent, not because of what is actually allowed in the rules.

That is where coming to a forum and learning what the rules actually specifically allow you to do can be a very helpful tool. Since I like a more relaxed game I'll always quickly ask my opponent if they mind if I take back a move (and I let them know they'll have the same courtesy on their turn). If they are not used to playing this way then I suck it up and play the strictest interpretation of the rules.

In my experience, I have found that the players that actually turn out to be the worst sports of all are those that assume the way they have always played the game must be correct and therefore get angry whenever someone expects them to play differently.

While the rules don't tell you that you can only move a unit once and then you're finished with it, the rules also don't specifically allow you to move a unit mutiple times to find your prefered ending point. Since rules in a game are permissive, the strictest interpretation is that you may only move the models in a unit once before continuing on with another unit.

Knowing this to be true, you should attempt to be understanding in the case that another player wishes to play the game this way. That is what a good sport does.

then i guess i play a more relaxed game

my gaming group is is pretty much about having fun(its just a game afterall). i do also play in quite a few RTTs  and even have hit a GT.  in those settings i usually opt to let the other player decide unless it is something over the top(one guy tried to use the old guess rules from 3rd editon in 4th for ordinance and i was like hold up why are you making it harder on yourself?). most if not all rules debates have been ended by simply breaking out the BBB.  if it is needed there is always the tourny judge you can ask about unclear rules.

the way i see it in a relaxed setting measuring deepstrike location is part of the movement phase and snce there is only 1 prohibition on pre-measuring it is a non issue, at least in my group. but as you said if i do it i also expect my opponant to be able to do it as well.

Think about it like Chess or Checkers....you cant move a piece there and then expect to move it back....well not in a tournament setting at least.  Like Yakface said, being able to do that is from the sportsmanship of your opponent letting you.  In a tournament setting you might get away with a little of that because your opponent is nice but if your doing it on every move of every turn they are gonna get a little annoyed.

Posted By Vult on 01/30/2007 4:41 AM
Think about it like Chess or Checkers....you cant move a piece there and then expect to move it back....well not in a tournament setting at least.

Of course you can.  You can move chess pieces around as much as you want until you take your hand off of them.

To Flavius:

I think the two of us agree in practical game terms.  I of course would never advocate that you can't deep strike into difficult terrain or that you can't take more than one of each troop choice.  Common sense allows both.  Of course, covering every contingency in the rules would be much too cumbersome.  My point is just that the "permissive rule set"  arguement is relied on a bit too much.  Basically, I think the "permissive" arguement is a subset of common sense, but it doesn't always work on its own.

I think the troop choices is a good example.  The general rules say that (in a standard mission), you may select 6 choices from the troops section.  Perhaps I take a look in my codex's troops section.  I see 5 different choices.  I may conclude that I can take each of those 5 choices.  Taking two of the same choice is a... THING (for lack of a better word) that is not directly permitted.  Common sense says of course you can take multiple units of the same.  Many codices don't even have 6 troop selections.  Many other rules imply it, such as units that are specifically limited to 0-1, Necron rules about what happens when you exceed the compulsory number of troops with their single troop choice, etc.  But it's not actually permitted by the rules.

Look, you might disagree with my interpretation here.  I REALLY don't want to get into a debate about the troop issue, as I have no real interest in proving that I am correct.  I am just saying that "the rules don't say that you CAN" is a slippery slope that can at times lead to more rules laweyring than it might prevent.

 

To Insaniak, Yakface, and the others discussing movement:

I understand, in theory, what you are saying about the rules not permitting premeasurment of movement and changing one's mind.  But how do you measure movement then??  Move them blindly, then measure to see if they have exeeded their 6" allowance, and if so, move them back the minimum distance?  What if you move them only 5 inches, then measure, and see that you could have had another inch?  Is that inch lost?  Do you nominate a direction first, and the measure?  That would seem to add a rule that is not required.  How do you do it?  I am not attacking you here, I would really like to understand how you apply this strict understanding that the rules allow no premeasurement.

EDIT:  Just looked up the movement rules, and the thing is, they don't discuss measuring at all, just moving up to your maximum distance.  Do it seems to me that when rules define when measurement takes place, pre-measuring would be precluded.  But when actual measuring is not discussed at all, we are already making some common sense assumptions about how the measuring works, and there is little if any rules basis to criticize anyone's understanding of it.

Simple, you decide where you're going and then measure out their move. No measuring out this way and that to determine which way is the most beneficial.


Yet premeasuring is also adding a rule.

For all you premeasuring guys think on this.
Now the rules say you cant measure distance to a target in the shooting phase and then decide not to shoot them because they are out of range.
They dont say you cant measure 18in in the movement phase to see if your marines can walk forward and magically be in rapid fire distance in the shooting phase. But almost nobody would let you get away with that. I had a guy measure his charge range in the movement phase to decide if he wanted to move his bloodthirster out in the open or behind cover.

Premasuring is generally not allowed for anything because it significantally afects yoru decisions and is generally bad sportsmanship, not to mention being almost always thought to be illegal.

And no, i wouldnt let the guy premeasure the distance.
For a rules reference...The order of actions says in all instances to chose a unit, chose where it is going/what it is doing, then measure.

Posted By Ghaz on 01/30/2007 9:26 AM

To Insaniak, Yakface, and the others discussing movement:
I understand, in theory, what you are saying about the rules not permitting premeasurment of movement and changing one's mind. But how do you measure movement then??

Simple, you decide where you're going and then measure out their move. No measuring out this way and that to determine which way is the most beneficial.

But, the rules for movement are:

1. Choose a Unit

2. Move it up to its max distance.

You seem to be saying:

1. Choose a Unit.

2. Declare where it will move to.

3. Measure in that direction and move up to its max distance.

You seem to be adding a step that is not supported/required by the rules.

 

In a similar vein:

Would those of you arguing against pre-measurement of movement say that it would be illegal if I said, "Ok, you know what... I'm gonna shoot at your assault sqaud there... hmm, you know what, no, I'm not gonna shoot."  I've declared my target, and then I've taken that back, which is not permitted by the rules.  Yeah, I guess you guys WOULD say that I am not allowed to do that.

No, because you have to measure in order to know that you've only moved your legal distance. Your method looks something like this:

1. Choose a unit
2. Measure in all directions to see where the unit could possibly end it's move.
3. Move the unit up to its max distance.

Once again, you're the one adding a step to the rules and not us. You measure the unit's movement as you are moving them in order to make sure you don't illegally move them farther than allowed. You don't premeasure their move and then decide where they will be moving to.

Well, fair enough.  But we're both adding things that aren't actually there.

I am assuming that I am allowed to measure different directions before I move because the rules simply say move them anywhere you want (with certain restrictions) up to my max move.

You seem to be assuming that I am required to select my direction before I measure because it doesn't specifically allow you to measure different options.

If we were debating this in a game, you ask me where it says that I am allowed to premeasure, I ask you where it says I must  select one direction before measuring.

Hey, I'll agree to disagree.  And if someone insisted on playing with no pre-measurment, I'd be happy to do it, as it would effect both of us (although if my opponent was a big fan of the stand-and-shoot, I might be a bit more skeptical ).  But in the absence of clearly written rules on the subject, I think we are both making some assumptions.

Posted By swize1 on 01/30/2007 9:38 AM
Would those of you arguing against pre-measurement of movement say that it would be illegal if I said, "Ok, you know what... I'm gonna shoot at your assault sqaud there... hmm, you know what, no, I'm not gonna shoot."

Technically, yes, that is not allowed by the rules. Would I actually allow it in a game? Sure.

Completely different situation to premeasuring, though. Declaring a shot, and then changing your mind gives you nothing you didn't have before. At the end of it, nothing has changed.

Premeasuring, on the other hand, gives you a more detailed image of the battlefield than you had before. A large part of the strategy of 40K is guessing who can reach what. Premeasuring gives you a (as I believe someone mentioned earlier) 'Godlike overview' that is not intended by the rules, and which, to my mind, actually removes a large part of the fun and spontaneity of the game.

Besides, your shooting declaration example... any individual models in the unit can chose not to shoot, so you could simply elect to not shoot with all of them...

Posted By swize1
I am assuming that I am allowed to measure different directions before I move because the rules simply say move them anywhere you want (with certain restrictions) up to my max move.

You seem to be assuming that I am required to select my direction before I measure because it doesn't specifically allow you to measure different options.

The difference being that your way, as Ghaz said, adds in a step. Our way, measurement is simply a part of the movement. The action performed is 'moving the model'... the measurement is not a seperate step, it's simply a way of making sure that you don't move the model further than you are allowed. That's why it's not specifically mentioned in the movement rules... it's not an action by itself... it's simply a tool for movement.

Get them Insaniak!

Premeasuring is cheating.

Moving models commits them to a course of action.

Choosing to take a move back is cheating and proves simply that one doesn't have enough foresight to see a mistake or enough integrity to endure a bad call.

Demanding to premeasure and take back moves, and forcing the issue on other players, is obstinately apauling.

Insaniak (and others),

Your arguements are all very sensible, and I'm not saying you are aboslutely wrong.

(Although, as an aside, I've never been all that fond of the "shouldn't have a godlike overview" argument.  It seems to tread dangerously close to fluff, and if so, hey... these models are generally battle-hardened combat veteran genetically engineered supermen/warp entities/powerful psykers/alien races/robots with technologically advanced equipment/sensors to boot.  They know how far away something is and how quickly they can get there.  Hell, when I went to court to fight my speeding ticket, the police provided her A+ certifcation or some such in estimating a car's speed through visual inspection alone...)

The only part I am having a problem with is the somewhat nebulous sounding idea that you have to commit to a certain direction of movement, then you may only move in that direction.  It might be a sensible conclusion to be drawn from the rules as you read them, but it seems to be restrictive and demanding in a way that the rules don't require.

What if I say, ok, I am moving these guys THIS way, then I measure, and then, seeing where the 6" mark lies on my ruler, it suddenly occurs to me that I might be in assault range of a different squad.  Can I choose not to move at all?  You'll probably say, sure, you can choose not to move, it's not like you've premeasured in several directions.  But I'm benefitting from that "premeasurment" by making decisions based on it, aren't I?  Or maybe you think I am committed?  What exactly have I committed to by measuring?  Where do you draw the line?  If I measure six inches straight in front of me, can I choose to veer off to the left a bit while clearly not moving the full 6"?  Must all models in the squad move in that exact direction?

Hey, I'm sure you'll have opinions on these scenarios based on your perceptions of this premeasuring issue.  I'm really not trying to debate them specifically, I am just saying I take exception to this commitment to move that you seem to be inferring in the text.  And also, I'm sure that when you play, 99% of the time these issues don't come up.  But this is the forum where we want iron clad answers that apply perfectly.  Perhaps it is just time to agree to disagree..