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Its football not soccer, thats my contrabution to this argument. I personnaly dont measure when I deepstrike as I thought the point of the game was you were generally not allowed to premeasure anything.

It seems to me that there are three types of measurements that could come up in this game.

One is is the type where the rules specifically tell you to declare that you are performing the measurement-related action, measure how far away something is, and compare it to the defined range of whatever you are doing.  Consequences of being out of range are clearly spelled out in the rules.  Obviously, the two main exmaples of this are firing on an enemy unit and declaring an assault on an enemy unit.

Another type of would be measuring at a point in the game where nothing about measurement is even mentioned.  Like if I wanted to randomly measure to see how far away from something a unit of mine is during the movement phase (like, say, the center of the board for mission objectives).  This would clearly be disallowed, both by good sportsmanship, and the idea of the permissive rule set.  Based on this, pre-measuring to the board edge when deep striking is clearly illegal.  The rules tell you to place your models anywhere on the board (no distances of any kind mentioned), and roll for scatter.  If it goes off the board or into an enemy model, that's life.  There was no reason to believe you were allowed to lay down a tape measure at any point.

But the third type of measurement is the kind where the rules specify that the range of something is limited to a certain distance, but provide no information about how measurement is carried out.

Here's an example: Eldar Farseer Psychic Power Fortune.

"Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer."

Now, everything I have read on this thread from the "no pre-measurement" camp tells me that members of that camp would argue that I may select one unit, and if they are not within 6", I may not choose another unit.  Would you guys agree?  After all, if I measured out to see how many units I have within 6" of my Farseer, I am "pre-measuring," aren't I?

But I would say of course I can "pre-measure" if that's what you want to call it.  I wouldn't call it "pre-measuring," which has come to sound like a dirty word, because it's not "pre-"anything.  The rules tell me to sleect a unit within 6", so I need to see who is in 6".

Contrast this with the shooting rules, which specifically say to select a target, and then measure to see if they are in range.  This is an important distinction.  Select something that is within "range" vs. select something and then SEE if it is in range.

It seems to me that movement works the same way.  The rules don't say to move your unit and then measure to see if they surpassed their maximum distance.  If the rules did say this, it would clearly be a "pre-measurement" if I measured before I moved my models.

The rules tell me only to move up to 6 inches.  Since there's no specified measurement step, I don't see how there's pre-measurement.  But obviously, a specific distance has been evoked, and I need to measure somewhere.  I suppose we disagree on when the tape measure comes down.  I see no problem with it coming down before I decided where I actually want to move.  Others say once the tape measure comes down, you have committed to a course of action.  Once again, I don't see that supported by the rules.  But also, once again, I can see the merits of both view points because the rules are not clear.  If GW wanted to make a grand pronouncement, in the vein of "you may never re-roll a re-roll," such as "any time you measure any distance related to the specified range of an attack, power, ability, movement mode, etc., you have committed yourself to that course of action if it is permissible," that would be great.  But they didn't.  But they do have two types of measurments.  One where they specify that you declare your action and then measure to see if it's possible, and one with rules not nearly so strict.

Yes, I pick a unit to cast Fortune (and especially Doom) on before measuring. And I don't re-measure to a different unit if the first was in range. To do so would be gaining an unfair advantage.

Part of this is supposed to be context. Just as GW doesn't tell you how to roll a d6, coming from the perspective of playing other wargames, they also expect that players know premeasurement is verboten. It's gaining additional information for personal advantage. Unfortunately this is another case of GW not writing clearly enough for their actual audience. Many people play this as their FIRST wargame, and thus don't have that perspective of prior experience.

The rules tell me that I can move a unit up to a given distance. Again, however I determine that I'm moving that distance or less is up to me. I frequently see infantry units shuffled an inch or two without a tape measure coming out at all. Both players can easily tell that the unit moved less than 6". The measurement is just there to ensure that you don't move too far; not to give you foreknowledge about multiple possible courses of action before you commit to one.

There are also games out there in which you can premeasure. Warmaster is one of them. They tend to spell out explicitly (again, that permissive rules thing) that you ARE allowed to measure distances between units, etc, whenever you want to.

To stay with the American Football argument, forward passing wasn't done for a long time when the game started because the rule book didn't say you COULD do it. It didn't say you COULDN'T but it didn't say you could so people didn't do it. Of course they do it all the time now so the rules have changed or at least refined... that's an argument for another time.

Additionally, fowls that are commited in Rugby [admittedly minor ones] are let go in the name of keeping the game going and keeping it exciting.

I'd once again like to say that I am AGAINST the premesuring thing in most respects - if not all but I wanted to know WHY people think so.

WARNING MASSIVE CULTURAL GENERALIZATION AHEAD:

I think it's a culture thing as I play games on both side of the Atlantic and American's are more likely to be in the camp of - "It doesn't implicitly say that I can so I can't." Where as most Europeans [Irish and English anyway] are the opposite, believing, "It doesn't say that I can't so I can." Not just for 40K but for most things. My Generalization being over anyone going to the "Swollen Member's" Show in London in March?

Pre-measurement in terms of deep-strike... I'm guessing you are talking about measuring the distance to the boards edge so it's not possible to scatter off the table. Correct? Not in any way shape or form akin to measuring for movement.

As far as I know the only places in the rules that explicitly prohibit pre-measuring distances is in choosing targets and dropping an Indirect Blast templates. Any other time, at least according to RAW, it would be OK. But... This is just not the case and I think this whole discussion is turning into a good argument against RAW. It's simply not the way the game is played. It has nothing to do with some particularly poorly worded rule or contradiction from page X to Y or from Codex to Wargear. It may not in the rules but it's the way most, if not all, the people I see playing the game.

beefHeart

Yeah

Cheating is doing anything that breaks the rules.

The movment rules are bad. They expect you to know how to move them (pick them up, slide them, telekinises?) the appropriate distance. However, the deepstrike rules are clear. Place a model. Scatter it. It would be clearly cheating to measure out how far from the table edge it is.

There might be house rules letting you do that, but against someone at a tournament, or not in your regular group, you shouldn't expect to do it.

Posted By swize1 on 02/01/2007 10:55 AM
Here's an example: Eldar Farseer Psychic Power Fortune.

"Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer."

Now, everything I have read on this thread from the "no pre-measurement" camp tells me that members of that camp would argue that I may select one unit, and if they are not within 6", I may not choose another unit.  Would you guys agree? 

Actually yes, I would agree with that.

Unless specified otherwise, Psychic Powers are subject to the usual Shooting rules (Psychic Powers, page 52)

So, since the rules for Fortune don't say otherwise, you would follow the usual shooting process to cast it... the only changes are those listed: You don't need LOS, it's cast at the start of the turn instead of the shooting phase, and your target is a friendly unit.

So within that structure, 'Nominate one Eldar unit with a model within 6" of the Farseer' is simply another way of saying 'This power has a range of 6", and is targetted at an Eldar unit'

I agree with Celtic in REAL football there is nothing that says you can run diagnally backwards, sideways, bicicle kick, (Yet some say bicycle kicks are illigal cause of the high kick rule, yet its allowed if no one is near), football only has about 20 rules. I think perhaps that is why it is more popular in Europe than in the states, because of CEltics arguement which I already thought of but didn't want to say earlier. Games like baseball tell you were to run, and along which path to run. Being tht 40K is a european game I would think the restrictive way of looking at rules as they do with rugby and soccer is more appropriate, as they made the game; likely with this mentality.

On a side note, all these examples of banging mom's and throwing grenades are just out of content. First there are other rules about throwing grenades that are emplaced by the government, banging moms is you own business. In short I dont care if you wanted to bend over and take a dump on the table as long as:

1) You do not try to say it blocks line of sight.
2) It does not land on my models, because that would be damage to my personal property and that's just rude hence a dock in sports.

Smart Alex, go buy a rulebook for Soccer. Or Football in whatever country you reside. $20 says it will be a great deal more explicit than you are presenting here. You are missing the point. The rules are indeed permissive. Same for every game.

ok i have read this entire post and thought about some of the answers abck and forth and i see both points of view

i am in the camp of you do not measure deepstrike shooting or charging ranges... but i have never had an issue of im going to see if i can move there or there or wherever..

but here i do have an issue with

"""That's because you seem to think that not having a rule specifically disallowing an action makes it possible."""

and you may disagree all you want but yes I do... if i can find something that i can use and it doesnt say anywhere in the book i can not do it who are you to say otherwise?

in the absence of a negative you can always assume a positive

case in point and this is just one example

techmarine w/ full servo harnes and jump pack/ bike.. yes or no?

i say yes.. nothing you can say can prove otherwise.. my proof and this doesnt quite fit the example but it helps... a tech marine may take any equipment in the space marine armory... last time i checked a bike and jump pack were in the armory

pete haines sticky doesnt hold any weight either.. its not official and not in the faq or print

so unless it says no you can not, there are some chapters you can not do that with i can ...

wish i could remember the last big thing we came across under this topic

Posted By The Drop Zone on 02/01/2007 4:58 PM
and you may disagree all you want but yes I do... if i can find something that i can use and it doesnt say anywhere in the book i can not do it who are you to say otherwise?

I don't know any different ways to say the same thing that we've been saying all along: that's just the way games work.

The lack of a rule saying you can't do something does not automatically allow you to do it. That would allow you to do anything that isn't specifically prohibited by the book, which is just patently ridiculous... as some of the examples that have been given in this thread should show.

Posted By The Drop Zone on 02/01/2007 4:58 PM
case in point and this is just one example

techmarine w/ full servo harnes and jump pack/ bike.. yes or no?

Under the current Marine Codex, yes, this is legal.

But not because there is no rule saying you can't. It's legal because the armoury rules say that models with access can take any allowed equipment and the Techmarine's rules say that you can select from the Armoury.

An actual relevant example would be if the Techmarine didn't actually have the line in his entry that specified that he could take items from the armoury.

  If his rules don't say he can't, does that mean he can?

Clearly not... or every model in the army would be able to do so.

I would not premeasure any movement, assualt or deepstrike. Its just not how the game is meant to be played. If somebody did that and said "its not against the rules" I would smack them in the mouth and say "neither is that"

Yet another Dakka rules debate that refuses to admit there's ambiguity. You guys are all wrong. Or all right. Or, whatever... The rules don't say you can pre-measure movement, they don't say you can't... Or, from the permissive ruleset angle, there's no "pre-measure" step, there's no "choose a movement vector" step.



No? What if you keep an eye on your opponent's reaction, and use that sort of waffling to determine which unit he's more worried about? Not that this is some huge advantage, but poker players wear hoods, sunglasses, all manner of gear, to conceal their reactions. It's a noteworthy component of that game. Now, you don't think you could gain an advantage using those tactics in 40K, where people don't traditionally pay attention to tells" as they play?



No, it really doesn't. You guys are basically talking about moving a model along a vector, and then measuring as far along that vector as is possible. That's fine. That's also not what the rules say you have to do, nor is it really exactly what you're going to do in practice.

The main reason I don't support your interpretation (from a playability perspective) is that it's a built in slippery slope. See, you can say that a unit is moving in a given direction... But you didn't lay out mathematically precise vectors for every model in the unit. You might, for example, want to move up to a building... So, you move the model, and it turns out you've got an extra inch, so you slide the model along the wall of the building to use it. You're no longer on your original vector. Now, maybe an inch is too much, and you'd say "hey, I said I was moving in this direction, and if I can only do 5", so be it..." So then what about a half inch? Or a quarter? It can make the difference...

The fact is, there's no way to precisely and consistently assure that your interpretation is being followed. I understand that some cases are far more obvious... Like, measuring one direction to charge, seeing it won't work, then instead moving 90 degrees off in another direction. Clearly that's a seperate thing from poking your guy an extra half inch along a wall... But, by allowing premeasuring, you assure that the rules are clear and consistent, every time.

Again, I think the rules are ambiguous... I just think allowing premeasuring is a better way to play.



Yeah, but premeasuring is not moving. It's measuring.



It really depends if you consider the skill of accurately estimating distances in the 3"-48" range to be relevant. I don't see why distance estimation should be an honored part of the wargaming skillset. It's not a tactical choice, it'd be like having two football teams guess how many jellybeans are in a jug in place of an opening coin toss. Sure, you can get good at it and gain an advantage from it. I don't think it's really what the game is about.



Ok... So can you move 2", adjust your direction, move 2", adjust your direction, move 2"? This might seem trivial, but what about, say, a Landspeeder going 24"? At that point, you're moving far enough that you might gain an advantage by moving part of the distance and adjusting.



Somewhat. But I've played a lot of paintball in my life, and I can tell you that it doesn't work that way in practice. Very, VERY often, you'll look at a bunker, guess that you can make it, and start running for it. Then a guy starts shooting at you, and you shorten your run into a closer bunker.

The fact is, a commander doesn't say "squad 1, face 132.2 degrees on your compass, then run forward!" He says "move up, but stay in cover." Then the unit moves as best it can. But, of course, that's fluff.



Hahaahahahaahhaahahahahha... Wheee! A big soccer fan, I'm guessing. I'd love to see you try to run from a 300+lb defensive lineman. I don't think you'd get far enough to even be surprised at how fast he was on top of you. Not only do those guys run miles and miles and miles during their careers, they do it faster than about 99% of the population.

Phyrixis, it is part of wargaming, and it?s always been part of wargaming. To the extent that games which allow it explicitly say so. Distance estimation is considered one of the skills needed in the game. You can have a perfectly legitimate game designed with premeasuring in mind, but most are built with this lack of information intended. Warhammer and 40k are. Warmaster is the reverse.

It?s not considered legitimate around here to say ?the rules work this way because that?s a core assumption of wargames, carried over from other games the designers played before this?. So we have to make more elaborate explanations of how the rules implicitly disallow premeasuring where they do not do so explicitly. It is annoying that GW didn?t come right out and explicitly state at the beginning of the book that premeasuring is forbidden in all cases, as opposed to just mentioning it in a couple sections of the rules.

//OffTopic On

I have to back up Phryx on the football comment.

When I was in college, I worked in a Gold's Gym where Scott Adams (a former Atlanta Falcons offensive lineman) worked out. That guy would do his whole weight training routine, and then get on the stationary bicycle for 60+ minutes, and he did that every day.

People forget that cardiovascular endurance isn't just about being able to run long distances at relatively slow speeds, but it is also about the ability to recover quickly after sprint activities (like what lineman do every down).

Sal

//OffTopic Off

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
 The rules don't say you can pre-measure movement,

And there you go then. No ambiguity after all.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
Now, you don't think you could gain an advantage using those tactics in 40K, where people don't traditionally pay attention to tells" as they play?

No, not really.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
You guys are basically talking about moving a model along a vector, and then measuring as far along that vector as is possible.

No, that's not what we're talking about at all. There is no requirement for a model to move in a straight line. The only restriction is that they don't move more than their movement distance. There is no 'vector' involved. Just movement up to their movement distance, measured as they move.

The rest of your argument from that point on is therefore irrelevant, as it's built on the faulty premise that we were saying something that we weren't... for example:

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
You might, for example, want to move up to a building... So, you move the model, and it turns out you've got an extra inch, so you slide the model along the wall of the building to use it.

...This is perfectly legal. Again, there is no requirement to move in a straight line. So long as the model doesn't move more than his movement distance, he can change direction as often as he likes.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
The fact is, there's no way to precisely and consistently assure that your interpretation is being followed.

There is no way to 'precisely and consistently assure' that the model is moving no further than exactly 6" either, short of building some sort of laser-guided robot to move your figures.

A certain amount of leeway is going to be allowed by players, depending on just how nit-picky they choose to be with each other. But that applies to quite a few aspects of the game.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
But, by allowing premeasuring, you assure that the rules are clear and consistent, every time.

...but being, in your opinion, the better way to play doesn't make it the way that's actually supported by the rules...

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
It really depends if you consider the skill of accurately estimating distances in the 3"-48" range to be relevant.

In a game that doesn't allow pre-measuring, how would it not be relevant? It's every bit as relevant as, to return to your own example, a poker player's ability to guess which cards his opponent has based on the twitching of his eyebrown.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 9:37 AM
It's not a tactical choice,

Of course it's a tactical choice.

Can I reach this piece of cover here, or do I go for that slightly closer piece of cover over there...

If I move here, will they be in range to assault this unit... or do I hang back a little and shoot to try to stay out of range of that unit over there...


Pre-measuring removes almost all the element of risk from the game, because you already know the answers to those sorts of questions. And risk is a large part of what makes a wargame interesting.

Ok... So, here's the trick that this brings up:

I want to know if I can make it into assault range, or if I should run to cover. So, I start out by moving .0001" towards the unit I might want to charge. Since I measure as I move, I lay my tape down, move that .0001". I have pulled 12" out of my tape, and I note that it comes up short of the potential charge target. I then move 5.9999" into cover.

Another issue this brings up is the Skimmer problem. The rules specifically address Skimmers moving fast by "flying in circles" or whatever. I don't have my rulebook in front of me to check, but I think it'd be important to examine how this rule effects your proposition for how movement must be handled.



No, it doesn't. I was making two arguments... First I think the rules are ambiguous... That's my RAW interpretation. And when the RAW don't suffice, you go with what the players agree upon, and that's where my personal preference comes in.

As far as RAW are concerned, and the permissive ruleset, it only goes so far. At some point you're going to have to afford yourself permissions that aren't explicitly defined in the book in order to make sense of it. I'm not saying "it doesn't say I can't," I'm just saying that you'll have to expand on the meaning of what it does say you can do. For example, it says you can move models. It never says you can touch them, but we assume that we can pick them up and move them.



I'm not saying it isn't relevant, I'm saying I don't consider it a worthwhile variable in victory. If you enjoy having distance guessing as one of the skillsets that defines a player's skill in 40K, that's fine. The argument I was responding to was made based on the assumption that it's positive to require players to be skilled in distance estimation. I'm not debating that it's a relevant skill, I'm debating whether it should be. In my opinion, not really. Apparently you feel differently.



I'm speaking about distance estimation. Choosing the number of inches you think there are between two spots is not tactical. That's what I'm saying. If it's an uncertainty, then yes, you have to make tactical choices based upon that estimation, but the estimation itself is not a tactical choice.



Where I play, we use dice... And they don't always come up with the same results.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 2:31 PM
Since I measure as I move, I lay my tape down, move that .0001". I have pulled 12" out of my tape, and I note that it comes up short of the potential charge target. I then move 5.9999" into cover.

That's not measuring the model's movement as it moves. That's measuring the model's movement and a section of the board in front of the model.

But seriously, how silly do you want to make this discussion?

How you actually do your measurement is between you and your opponent. But if you measure anything other than the part of the table that your model actually moves over, you're technically cheating.

That's really all it boils down to.

Posted By Phryxis on 02/02/2007 2:31 PM
Where I play, we use dice... And they don't always come up with the same results.

Hence 'almost all'... rather than 'all'...

I've played a lot of paintball in my life, and I can tell you that it doesn't work that way in practice

WHAT? GO play paintball then.  That has absolutely no bearing on what the 40k rules say.  (Well you know what, in issue number 47 when Batman was running from the Joker...) Nobody cares, stay OT.

The fact is, a commander doesn't say "squad 1, face 132.2 degrees on your compass, then run forward!" He says "move up, but stay in cover." Then the unit moves as best it can. But, of course, that's fluff.

What are you 12? Do you often make up stories to justify inventing rules? It's tough to read the continuing posts that basically make up fiction, once again, not relevant. (I knew this guy once, he was in the Army, and he said... whatever, it's all an abstract game, we have rules to explain things, not opinions and feelings.)

...another Dakka rules debate that refuses to admit there's ambiguity. You guys are all wrong....

Theres no ambiguity, atually Insaniac has spelled it out 5 times already. Your wrong, and are in the making up rules camp, and apparently in the rules dont say I can't camp also.  If you refuse to recognize the complete absurdity of  "the rules dont say I can't" argument, your just being obstinate at this point, or are genuinely ignorant.

I don't see why distance estimation should be an honored part of the wargaming skillset.

Of course you don't, that's because you're use to cheating, premeasuring, and making safe decisions with information you shouldn't have.

I just think allowing premeasuring is a better way to play.

Sure you do, because having the info removes the risk and makes things safe, It's clearly not in the rules, it's been beatten to death here, and not for the first time, but obviously you advocate it anyway for a lack of courage to make a call and live with it.

I don't think it's really what the game is about.

Certainly you don't because you premeasure.

As far as rules designs are concerened It's a less advantageous way to play, not to pre measure, and therefore, it carries the morale high ground.  Despite what camp a player thinks "feels" right, (Even if your incapable of understanding the basic concept of permissive rules.) it's empirical that premeasuring provides advantageous inteligence, and therefore of the two methods, premeasuring or not, not performing it is the correct one, because it is less advatageous. If you can't understand that, go play paintball...

 

...If somebody did that and said "its not against the rules" I would smack them in the mouth and say "neither is that"

Ha ha ha,

Superb Beef!

Posted By beef on 02/02/2007 3:47 AM
If somebody did that and said "its not against the rules" I would smack them in the mouth and say "neither is that"

HA! Sigged.

BYE

Personally I think pre-measuring is a cheat!

Could you honestly imagine a group of soldiers lying in wait in the bushes, and a guy with a huge tape measure running about checking how far their weapons can reach in real life.

"HEY LADS!!! We can shoot up to this hedge here!!"
errr No! don't think that would happen somehow

Or the General saying its 1mile to that building so shoot there. we know this because we got out our huge tape measures and measured it when they weren't looking!
err No! They would do what real people do, guess, shoot, re-position if first shot was off.

Same as in 40K


The general impression throughout the game(though I admit its not written) is that you nominate where your shooting, moving etc then measure.

I'm with Beef on this one. I'd smack-em!

Not to endorse the premeasure, but you HAVE heard of laser range finders, haven't you? The CHEAP ones (@ $50-$100 U.S.) are good up to one mile, small and cheap. Sure, footsloggers don't get the as standard equipment, but  any decently equipped army uses them to range in fire fields fast and relibly.

Posted By Lordhat on 02/04/2007 1:12 PM
Not to endorse the premeasure, but you HAVE heard of laser range finders, haven't you? The CHEAP ones (@ $50-$100 U.S.) are good up to one mile, small and cheap. Sure, footsloggers don't get the as standard equipment, but  any decently equipped army uses them to range in fire fields fast and relibly.

Yeah, theyre called "targeters" and only storm troopers use them.

I miss the days of 1 point targeters in 3rd ed IG codex....

I'm interested in bringing this discussion back to the real act performed while moving the models.  I know every game I've ever played both players intuitively extended the ruler about 6 inches, put it beside the model, maybe pan it around slightly and then move the model.  Once the model has been moved there can't really be any takebacks unless one player is willing to let it slide.  I would say that once the ruler was placed in a general direction that is the way the model should be moved, but realistically the ruler needs to be moved around a bit to place the model in its new position.

Is premeasuring waving the ruler around 360 degrees?  Or is it simply tracking the ruler until you find the right exact direction?  There is clearly an ambiguity, but how would the movement action look in reality for either side of the arguement? 

Amongst the group I game with, if you wind up a little to the side, that's fine. But the tape doesn't go out any further than the model actually moves, and no measuring is allowed in any other direction.

Our group allows a pre-measure prior to movement. The movement 'clause' in the rules is very generic. We debated from both sides (Yak/Insaniak vs. swizel) and decided that the yak/insaniak position is placing an unstated restriction on an otherwise open-ended rule (Pick unit, move up to max movement). With no restriction about measuring 360 degrees prior to moving the unit, we decided that we could do this.

Which again falls into the flawed 'it doesn't say that I can't, so I can' argument.