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Revised

Current Doctrines:
Ratlings
Sharpshooters
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Light Infantry(proposed)

I'm proposing swapping the squad lascannons for Missile Launchers and giving those 3 Light Infantry to take objectives with the veterans

HQ-JO-96
Honorifica
Power weapon
Vet+Standard
Mortar
Iron Discipline

Fire Support-105
3 autocannons
Sharpshooters 

Fire Support-90
3 Heavy Bolters
Sharpshooters

Anti Tank-120
3 lascannons
sharpshooters

HQ-Inquisitor-163
Eviscrivator
3 mancatcher acolytes
Crusader
2 Chirugens
Veteran Guardsman

Elites-10 Ratlings-110

Elites-Vindicare-110

Elites-8 Hardened Veterans-125
VetSarge, Bolter
3 plasma
Lascannon

Troops-Alpha platoon

HQ-55
Mortar
Iron Discipline

Infantry Squad-95
Lascannon
Plasma gun

Infantry Squad-95
Lascannon
Plasma gun

Infantry Squad-95
Lascannon
Plasma gun

Troops-Beta Platoon

HQ-81
3 plasma guns
medic

Infantry Squad-80
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad-80
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun

Since bootcamp wasn't being helpful, I decided to register somewhere I might get a reply on my army list.

The list is for this year's GD and I want a shiney new list, so nothing's actually built

I'd like to keep it all infantry, but sentinels might work. The inquisitor is out of the Witchhunters book, and the mancatcher just removes one attack from an anemy apiece, thus that squad is for tooled up lord and TMC hunting, assuming they get to my lines. otherwise it's mostly stand and shoot tactics.

Changes to be made: take sharpshooters off the second command squad, it doesn't work on plasma guns. change the heavy bolter in the support squad to an auto cannon with the points from sharpshooters

-=HQ=-
Inquisitor Lord 70
Eviscerator

Retinue 90
Acolyte
Mancatcher
Acolyte
Mancatcher
Acolyte
Mancatcher
Chirurgeon
Laspistol/CCW
Chirurgeon
Laspistol/CCW
Crusader
Power Weapon
Suppression Shield
Penitent Psyker
CCW

Heroic Senior Officer 92
Power Weapon
Bolt pistol
Iron Discipline
Veteran
Company Standard
Laspistol/CCW
3x Guardsmen
Laspistols/CCWs

Mortar Squad 80
6x Guardsmen
Lasguns
3x Mortars

Mortar Squad 80
6x Guardsmen
Lasguns
3x Mortars

Anti-Tank Squad 120
6x Guardsmen
Lasguns
Sharpshooters
3x Lascannons

Fire Support Squad 100
6x Guardsmen
Lasguns
Sharpshooters
2x Autocannons
Heavy Bolter
-=ELITES=-

Vindicare Temple Assassin 110

Hardened Veterans Squad 124
Veteran Sergeant
7x Veterans
4x Lasguns
3x Plasma Guns
Lascannon

Ratling Squad 110
10x Ratling Snipers
Sniper Rifles

-=TROOPS=-

-=Alpha Platoon=-
____________________________________________________________________

Command Squad 55
Mortar
Iron Discipline

Infantry Squad 1 95
Plasma Gun
Missile Launcher
Sharpshooters

Infantry Squad 2 95
Autocannon
Plasma Gun
Sharpshooters
____________________________________________________________________


-=Bravo Platoon=-
____________________________________________________________________

Command Squad 96
Iron Discipline
3x Plasma Guns
Veteran
Medi-Pack
Sharpshooters

Infantry Squad 1 78
Heavy Bolter
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 2 105
Lascannon
Plasma Gun
Sharpshooters
____________________________________________________________________

Though you have some 100 odd models I worry when I see a guard list with only 50 troops. Kudos to the ample mortar death, its worked once for me and that was in the last edition when they were 24 inch range. I would drop the vets, fire support and anti tank units as its much cheaper to get those heavy weapons in normal infantry units and would make them more survivable. The vets especially because to me you paying the extra to give them a heavy wep that forces them to be static and 3 plasmaguns that will eventually explode. Add another 3-4 infantry squads and you have a fairly tough force that won't bleed out fast and is full of sniper and mortar death with enough HB, AC and LC mixed into the infantry squads to still carry some serious punch. I'd also recomend you deploy the inquisitor, colonel and plasma Lt. together. If your hqs are gonna get into melee you can even the odds a bit with a little light show.

Since you are taking this to a tourney, I feel safe in making the assumption that you are after effectiveness. That being said, Your list could use a bit of work.

1) Inq HQ- I have never used these so I'd leave this to more experienced players to critique.

2) CHQ- Cherry mistake with the HSO. Change him to a JSO with HI and save 5 points. I hope you didn't give them CCWs with the intent of getting these guys in assault...

3) Mortar Sqds 1 and 2- Unique, but not effective. I'd drop them completely. The only time I've used them is in PHQ's that are providing leadership. Since they should be out of LOS, the mortar gives them something to do. This is 160 points better spent elsewhere.

4) AT Sqd- fine

5) FS Sqd- You should not be mixing weapons in these specialised squads. Either 3 AC OR 3 HB.

6) Assassin- Same as Inq...

7) Vets- Drop the LC and make the unit 5 strong. This unit should be Infilling or Dropping from the skies to nail a tough unit and die. Anything over 75 points is giving VP's away.

8) Rats- Not much experience with these fellows. 10 is definitely way too many. I'd suggest giving yourself 110 more points by dropping them. If your set on using them, make the unit 6 strong and save 44 points.

the command squad has close combat weapons because they often get assaulted, and lasguns are pretty useless when fired with mortars

the mortars are kind of an experiment, with all the fun mortar tacticia going on over at boot camp I wanted to try them, if they don't end up being effective, I can allways swap them out for a pair of infantry squads.

Also, I'm not taking them to a tournament, they are a fun list for one-off battles, but I am going pretty strongly for effectiveness

Edit: have a link to that mortar tacticia I mentioned

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Boot_Camp/index.php?showtopic=4405

That's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

If you pay any attention to it whatsoever, you're going to get hosed.

For my counter argument to the whole thesis of that nonsense, I present to you the following list:
World Eaters
Death Guard
Emperor's Children
Thousand Sons
Eldar /w Avatars and/or Pheonix Lords
Tyranids
Orks
Grey Knights

and, thus the preponderance of plasma and weapons that work well against those armies. The only real problem I find is with the mortars as they don't do well against MEQs. The snipers can go after valuble units and most likely drop 1 or 2 a turn. But yes, certain units do better against certain armies, that's no reason to discount them completely.

Orks and nids may prove a bit of a problem though, with their hordiness and special leadership rules

I thought the GD you mentioned in your original post was a tournament.... If you're going for effectiveness, there's no reason to hamstring yourslef.



The only reason a mortar is even ok in this unit is because the unit itself should be hidden in cover and out of LOS and the mortar can still shoot. Essentially, it lets the CHQ do something during the shooting phase. Giving your CHQ CCWs and pistols only makes them even less effective as they can't even get lucky kills outside assault range.



What armies are left after MEQ, Nids and Orcs?
IG and ?



Weapons that scatter 1/2 the time and are only effective against a single army in the game should definitely be discounted.

Don't take Mortars. Ever. Those 10 points can be spent better in numerous places.

BYE

Posted By Flagg07 on 02/10/2007 4:07 PM

What armies are left after MEQ, Nids and Orcs?
IG and ?

Tau?


Still not worthwhile.

Eldar, Tau, Dark Eldar, IG- pretty good

Against nids and orks they can kill stuff at a decent pace, as they probably won't scatter off huge squads.

Necrons, Armored Company- Useless

Against other MEQ you have a decent chance of a kill and a pin if you fire both.

sure, they're not assault cannon uber, but they have uses.
I may drop the squads, but they're most likely stating in the command squads, who have the pistols and CCWs because things go through cover, deep strike or infiltrate. This way there's twice as much suck to throw at an anemy that get's through, and they probably won't be able to shoot their lasguns more than twelve inches anyways.

So, any comments other than mortar-hating? all the arguments against them have already been said.

You just have too many extras. Mortars, ratlings and the vindicare all suffer from the same drawbacks; namely that GW rules guys put too much value on pinning checks. There should be very little imperial in an effective Guard list.

cheers

so, currently I'm leaning heavily towards swapping the Mortar squads for a heavy bolter support squad or a pair of infantry squads

If you're going for effectiveness, you need to change a lot more than just the mortar squad. Like I said, the article you're using as a base is simply ridiculous and deserving of scorn. Your whole army concept is flawed, because it revolves around mortars, pinning, and putting guardsmen (or other S3 T3 models) into hand to hand.

Not to mention all the other little things, like including missile launchers, grenade launchers, putting sharpshooters in a squad with a plasma gun, including ratlings, and vindicare, and many more...

Hey, I like ratlings! They're the cheapest snipers in the game, and a lot of TMCs run around with only 3+ saves nowadays, instead of always having a 2+ like in 3rd ed.

Otherwise I agree. The Vindicare is a neat fluffy unit, though pretty ineffective for the points. Grenade Launchers are just poor. Flamers and Plasmaguns trump them badly. Missile Launchers are okay guns, but Guard need the extra S and AP of lascannons so they're more able to reliably kill tanks and beat 2+ saves. BS3 is a bit unreliable, especially if you're resting all your anti-2+ save hopes on 24" range plasmaguns. Mortars are sadly ineffective against the vast majority of armies, though a few are fun to play with and will occasionally catch an opponent bunched up, allowing them to actually do something.

The list as a whole is just weighed down with too many units which are "cool, but not very effective". Many of these things could be nice used one or two at a time to make the list more interesting, but right now there's just too many points in that stuff.

It's tough to make an interesting all-infantry guard list. The best ones only use a few different units, and tend to be a little monotonous.

Well said Mannahnin.

Redundancy is a Guardsman's best friend. From the endless squads of Las/Plas to the supportive elements of cowering CHQ's and PHQ's that provide leadership and little else, there is no better way to go with the guard than complete specialization and redundant usage of squads.

Right now, you have several units that can be tossed, especially since this is supposed to be a tournament list:

2 Mortar Squads - there are 160 points of your army that will serve no tactical purpose in this list - I recommend ditching them for another Las/Plas line squad, using the remaining points to give Plasma Guns and Lascannons to all of your other line squads, instead of Grenade Launchers. I think it will be ideal to have the following setup for your two platoons:

Alpha - 350 pts
JO w/ Iron Discipline - 45 pts
Staff w/ 2 Plasma - 20 pts

Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 95 pts
Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 95 pts
Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 95 pts

Bravo - 335 pts
JO w/ Iron Discipline - 45 pts
Staff w/ 2 Plasma - 20 pts

Squad w/ Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun - 80 pts
Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 95 pts
Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Gun - 95 pts

That's 685 points, which is 161 points more than your original Alpha and Bravo platoons. Comparing firepower shows that this configuration gives you more bang for your buck:

Original Configuration (Equiv. points include Mortar support squads): 1 Lascannon, 1 Autocannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Missile Launcher, 6 Plasma Guns, 1 Grenade Launcher, 6 Mortars

New Configuration: 5 Lascannons, 1 Heavy Bolter, 10 Plasma Guns

The new configuration increases your anti-tank capability two-fold, and doubles your MEQ/anti-2+ save firepower with the 4 extra plasma guns, while getting rid of the GL, Mortars, and Autocannon that cannot do two jobs as one weapon (especially for this points level).

That will greatly improve your firepower, and I believe that it could also act as the new base for your list.

CK

it's not a tournament list, but the mortars are biting it, and I'll move it slightly towards that configuration, though I'm going to have another Heavy bolter guard squad for a bit more Anti-troop power

Revised

Current Doctrines:
Ratlings
Sharpshooters
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Light Infantry(proposed)

I'm proposing swapping the squad lascannons for Missile Launchers and giving those 3 Light Infantry to take objectives with the veterans

HQ-JO-96
Honorifica
Power weapon
Vet+Standard
Mortar
Iron Discipline

Fire Support-105
3 autocannons
Sharpshooters 

Fire Support-90
3 Heavy Bolters
Sharpshooters

Anti Tank-120
3 lascannons
sharpshooters

HQ-Inquisitor-163
Eviscrivator
3 mancatcher acolytes
Crusader
2 Chirugens
Veteran Guardsman

Elites-10 Ratlings-110

Elites-Vindicare-110

Elites-8 Hardened Veterans-125
VetSarge, Bolter
3 plasma
Lascannon

Troops-Alpha platoon

HQ-55
Mortar
Iron Discipline

Infantry Squad-95
Lascannon
Plasma gun

Infantry Squad-95
Lascannon
Plasma gun

Infantry Squad-95
Lascannon
Plasma gun

Troops-Beta Platoon

HQ-81
3 plasma guns
medic

Infantry Squad-80
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad-80
Heavy Bolter
Plasma Gun

 

And here's the test model, from the Anti tank squad

 http://z4.invisionfree.com/Boot_Camp/index.php?showtopic=6577&st=0&#last

Your paint scheme looks okay. Reminiscent of the late 90s test schemes for some of the non-GW SF ranges that were out around then.

Personally I hate anti-tank squads. Some can use the extra 12" of range to keep them safe, but I've run into too many people with ordnance and the like for me to really like to see a lascannon anyplace except in an infantry squad. This is pretty much just me, there are at least two other experienced guard posters who have had reasonable luck with them.

Mortars have their place - sometimes it is a good idea to effectively forfeit a certain number of points against the majority of your matches for the ability to do nasty things to weak skimmers hiding out of LOS. In a typical metagame for even friendly matches though, I think you made the right call. Sniper rifles fall into roughly the same category - good against monstrous creatures (assuming a 3+ save or worse) but underwhelming against everything else.

I have a somewhat low opinion of Inquisitorial retinues. The trouble with those fighty humans is twofold: they have T3, and they don't wear jetpacks or ride horsies. I'd just go for a cheap =I= to let you get your assasin, and get some horsies if you want some counterassault. 61-66 points for five horsies carrying lancers led by a Veteran Sergeant, possibly with melta bombs. You could use the wording loophole to grab an elite OM =I= (it would mean replacing the veterans with normal guardsmen, but since you are not using them as a drop unit it is not much of a loss) 65 points for a psycannon and the Emperor's Tarot and he's the IC most at home in an IG list, IMHO. Uses his IC status to avoid being targetted, gives you roughly +10% to get first turn, and pings with three respectable shots.

Personally I think the Eversor is more fun (super horsey) and the Callidus is more effective (super drop troop) than the (edit - Vindicare) but he certainly is dapper in his spy mask and gives the army a bit of personality alongside the Ratlings. (especially if you convert him to look like Ed Harris)

One of my personal favourite command configurations is a PHQ with the HI, COD, and a power sword. It's the only way to get an I5 human from the actual guard list, and LD10 is sort of nice as well. Occasionally I give him a Medallion Crimson when I am in a frivolous mood to stop the first errant shell from taking him out of action.

That all aside, your list as it is now is actually relatively solid, and everyone tweaks to their individual metagame anyways so the best way to improvefrom now is probably to get them painted up and on the table.

GL, HF

the retinue is to discourage my regular opponents from tooling up their daemon princes to the max. the whole bunch will cost less than most of the princes and Tyranid beasties I see, and will likely reduce it to 1 attack, which the chirugens will negate if he allocates it to the inquisitor

I added this to my lists, as I have little objective taking power, as brought up by a friend over MSN:

Current Doctrines:
Ratlings
Sharpshooters
Close Order Drill
Iron Discipline
Light Infantry(proposed)

I'm proposing swapping the squad lascannons for Missile Launchers and giving those 3 Light Infantry to take objectives with the veterans.

The missiles are more useful against infantry, cost 10 points less, and make it infiltratable