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I've always been fascinated by this variant of Predator. In fact, my current army list would consist of maxed out heavy support slots if I could take them in a Black Templars list. I've also wondered why armies like the Templars don't have access to a vehicle that stays true to the chapter's ideology of close-range firepower and assault?

To this end, I propose the following. Allow the Baal Predator to be taken as a Heavy Support choice by any Space Marine army. I say 'any' army because there aren't very many individualized lists in terms of special vehicles anymore, with a few obvious exceptions.

Now to those of you out there that may see this as another way to cram in more Assault Cannons - in some ways, it is. However, I don't see it as an economical way to do it. The tank already costs what, like, 130 points? So it's a significant points investment for a Twin-Linked weapon that only has a 24" range, which is not impressive when it comes to the slower, more ponderous tracked vehicles. That, and the fact that it is less survivable due to its inability to reduce all hits to glances only by moving over 6", ultimately turns a the Baal into a poor investment if the player is only taking it to get the 3 TL Assault Cannons.

This may just be my inner Templar hating on GW for making available the Crusader to the rest of the chapters as though it were a two-dollar whore, but I still would like to see what y'all think.

CK

The lack of range can be a pain, but I see the assault cannon as a much better anti-infantry turret weapon than the more ubiquitous autocannon (which it is). It helps that in BA armies it occassionaly gets a d6 speed burst due to the black rage. Heavy bolter sponsons give you something with a little more range till the cannon can let fly.
As a Templar player and BA player it doesn't really bother me that Crusaders are for everyone now. Its at 0-1 limit and it quite a bit a points since dex chapters need 8 terminators to make full use of its transport capacity. And the Templars are the only chapter to get that blessed upgrade which leaves Eldar and DE heavy weapons somewhat lacking.
I likewise wouldn't have a problem with Baal pred availibility, though it seems to me that not many chapters would sign on to the idea. A pred is supposed to be the marine support tank whether hunting infantry or armour. With its turret it needs to get pretty close without the armour or load of troops a crusader has. The Baal makes sense for chapters like the BA whose infantry are always up close tearing the enemy a new one where the pred won't be isolated.
Though some horde armies you really don't want your armour to get close to. Orks with tankbuster bombs and supertankbuter bombs as well of large units of stealers will eat the baal for breakfast.

Agreed on more or less all of your points. I'm just saying that assault armies like the Templars could really benefit from a tank like the Baal since, as you said, the Crusader is expensive, 0-1 or not, and you need to take a 15-man Crusader Squad or 8 Terminators to get your full money's worth out of its transport capabilities. Mobile fire support from a Baal would help immensely, and fits the bill as an infantry softener that would prep an enemy line for assault.

CK

As you say, several armies would benefit from access to this tank. Thus it would be an increase in power for them, and hence perhaps not the best idea, since SM are already pretty darn powerful. The fact that it's adding the ability to get more assault cannons cheaper in the HS slots just compounds the issue.

IME an AV13 tank in a list with other armor is considerably more durable than a couple of AV10 skimmers. So it'd be a pretty darn strong alternative, even if there wasn't the problem of stacking these with Termies and Tornados for even more AC spam.

@Mannahnin: Yes, but since you can only get three, and they cost about 140 points with the Heavy Bolters, and they're slower and less manouvreable, which makes them less effective. In addition, they aren't protecting the troops that would normally be inside the Crusader, so you're getting a cheaper assault cannon at the expense of durable protection for your troops (as if 3+ armor isn't already enough).

As it stands, allowing the Baal across the board would help armies like mine (Templars), in addition to SAFH armies that might need a softening agent to weaken an enemy charge. This goes back to the whole "Assault Cannons are overpowered" complaint, to which I say that if Rending were changed to meaning that you added 2 to the penetration roll instead of rolling an extra D6 on top of the 6 you made because of the Rend, Assault Cannons would suddenly only be able to AV14 on a Rending roll of a 6, meaning that only 16% of all Rending rolls would only glance AV14.

That discussion, however, is for another thread.

CK

EDIT: Nyarly, I wasn't sure how much Baals (Haha, Baals...whew. Okay, I'm done with the childish comments) cost, so I assumed they were 120 bare-bones, and 130 with HB Sponsons -- I don't have the codex.

As much as I'd like to see them in play more, I can see how people might complain if their opponent pulls out three Baals and puts them on the table.

Playing with Baals on a regular basis could then make the heavy support aspect of the game a lot more up close and personal.

This is really going down hill... :S

CK

Unless I'm missing something barebones Baal Preds are 120 points with HB sponsons (128 factory equiped EA/Smoke). Plus, aren't these pretty scarce in BA armies as they need the heavy slots for Annihilators for anti-armor duties?

I would, however, like to see this as an option for other armies, even if it cost ten or twenty points more. It's closest competitor for the same role, the Destructor, is 100 points bare bones, 110 with HB sponsons and 128 factory (chich seems about right).

As you say, the Baal is about the same price as a Destructor, but flat out superior in all categories except range. The main factor that keeps it comparatively balanced in a BA army is that BA tend to need Annihilators for lascannon power, as they are reluctant to rely on tac squads which may run forward on any given turn. Giving them to other SM would be a bit over the top, IMO. If Rending were fixed, then it would be a different story.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it would need a price hike for balance in other armies. Another ten or twenty points more would put it in Annihilator price range or higher, which would be about right for the added effectiveness of TL assault cannons versus the Destructor's single auto cannon (or the Annihilators TL LCs). BA's get would them in "unlimited numbers" for the current price, while other armies would have to pay a premium and access to only one.

Yes but make it O-1 too like the crusader. I can see armies out there with a crusader and two baalswith lots of termies with donkey cannons and and two five man scout squads with sniper riflers Oh did i forget about speeder now..... Nightmare for other armies

Posted By Corpsman_of_Krieg on 02/14/2007 1:43 PM

EDIT: Nyarly, I wasn't sure how much Baals (Haha, Baals...whew. Okay, I'm done with the childish comments) cost, so I assumed they were 120 bare-bones, and 130 with HB Sponsons -- I don't have the codex.

As much as I'd like to see them in play more, I can see how people might complain if their opponent pulls out three Baals and puts them on the table.

Playing with Baals on a regular basis could then make the heavy support aspect of the game a lot more up close and personal.

This is really going down hill... :S

CK

Hahaha, I just caught your edit. And yes, I also agree that they should be limited similarly to the Crusader: 0-1 in any non-Blood Angels army. Just one Baal for you!

Im all for other chapters getting the baal preditor, even if it is at a higher points cost. Well, Im all for it the moment my CSM Black Legion gets some upgrades in the armor department and some assault cannons of their own that is....