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I started playing 40K twelve years ago.  Since then, I have tried Vor, Mordheim, Battlefleet Gothic, Inquisitor, and Confrontation.  None have lasted longer than two months in my gaming group.  But Warmachine took hold six months ago and that's all we're playing, with most of my group selling their painted 40K armies for more Privateer Press stuff.

I finally have to admit, this game is better.  I prefer GW models, and I much prefer the GW background (I couldn't even read past the first Warmachine book, the fiction is so bad).  But the rules, they are so well written, it makes up for all of it.  I'll always hold on to my Kroot army, because it took my entire college degree to convert and paint, but this game is just so much more fun, and faster.

I'm upset, why can't I have a game that is fun and I can get into the atmosphere of? (I am having such a hard time caring about the Iron Kingdoms right now, the only reason I am getting through it is that I pretend Warmachine is like a Final Fantasy game, Darius and his silly looking halfjacks).

- Oaka

I sort of went through the same feelings a while back. I also generally like classic fantasy or sci fi, but what really helped me learn to appreciate the game world a lot more was just listening to the Podthralls (www.podthralls.com) talk about their Iron Kingdoms RPG games. After listening to a lot of their discussions on their podcasts I've come to see how deep and rich the world really is, and how poorly the Warmachine/Hordes rulebooks present it. I definitely agree that the rulebooks for the miniature games do a bad job of presenting that air of wonder about the game world that the GW books do a much better job with. I think this might be because a lot of their effort in the rulebooks go into the rules, and they leave all the fluff for the RPG books.

I'd definitely recommend checking out their IK RPG sections of their podcasts to really get a lot more info on the game world. It really is a cool and unique world, with a lot of flavor and depth.

When I first saw Warmachine, I was playing Mage Knight.  I loved the products and the display at a convention I was at.  Should have bought some then.  When I got home I went to the web and started learning about Warmachine.  That was the year the game was introduced,  In 2004 Mage Knight died and I decided to try 40K have played now for 3 years.  In 2005 I discovered that my Local Gaming Store now stocked Warmachine.  Bought my first figures and went to work.

I like the game and some of the background, but I can not follow the back story at all, but any way I still like the game.  I have just started a hordes faction as well and hope to play both games for many years.

I did sell most of my Flames of War stuff and some Warhammer Fantasy stuff to get into Hordes.

I think if more 40K players understood the system they would play as well.  At my LGS a lot of the 40K players also play Warmachine or Hordes.

Warrior 50

The backstory is quite good as long as you don't get it solely from the rulebooks. And yes, I definitely like the rules better than the GW games of late. I especially like the power attacks mechanics and the activation mechanics. It reminds me a lot of how the old Battletech games used to play. Plus, GW games just feel too vanilla to me lately. They've kinda sucked out all the "special" or "funky" features out of the armies that I played, and in their simplification of the rules, units all seem more or less the same now, just with different stat lines. I started in the days of Rogue Trader, and the variety in the earlier editions was what drew me to the game (and the fluff). I like the variety that Hordes/Warmachine provides in their units with their vastly different abilities. Even the "standard" infantry have different abilities and special effects.

A lot of people around here are also switching over from 40k/Fantasy to Warmachine/Hordes. I think we're now at the point where there are 3-4x as many PP games players than GW players now. I only ever see a few kids playing 40k around here, and maybe two or three folks playing Fantasy once every few weeks. There's also a regular contingent of Flames of War folks too. I think that with the new releases of Evolution, we'll probably have even more folks playing Hordes...around here it's kinda like the golden age of PP games...no idea how long that will last though, I hope for a while longer as I'm really enjoying my Troll army.

I am seeing the same phenomenon at my local FLAGS. GW seems to be in freefall and everyone is sporting Warmachine. I played it a few times when it first came out and thought the rules were great but was leary to buy into it then because of all the games coming and going out (Warzone ect.) I recently picked it back it up and have been buying armies not stop since. I think it's now here to stay and can see it surpassing GW in popularity if GW doesn't get its act together soon. I have also observed older veteren players seem to play PP games and the younger crowd staying with the GW games. I think that is a direct effect of the tactics strategy involved in the one over the other.

My veteran buddies are GW-dependent because of the customization it allows, still. The
models are easily cut, and the books give them options.

Though poor Grand Preceptor howled with grief when the final version of the DA Codex
released. It wasn't enough to make him switch, I'd warrant, but it was a sad day indeed.

Those 40k vets I see still playing (specifically G-P) have moved away from 'traditional' 40k at this point. They're doing COD, escalation, variants on combat patrol and Warbands/Path to Glory, are playing non-standard scenarios and/or are playing tournaments that use non-standard FOC, and are otherwise finding ways to play the game in the most fun, balanced fashion. Otherwise, I've seen a lot of 40k players burn out and just get tired of the disappointment; the move to fantasy, Warmachine or some other game is pretty natural...

It's a hard transition to make, after so much investment of time and treasure...

Ummm, you can play both.

For me, fiction is fun to read but a game must be fun to play. That's why people read books and play chess! Anyhow, the IK background is actually pretty good when you get into it. For one thing, the steam punk setting is pretty original. Much more so than alot of GW's highly derivative work (it's not the historical inspirations that bother me about 40K or fantasy, it's the blatant mimicry of other authors and fictional works such as Tolkien, Moorcock, Giger, Dune, etc. Later editions seem to try to address some of this, but the worlds just feel like a child trying to cobble together all of his favorite authors instead of finding his own voice).

As someone who is growing in the disgruntled GW fanboy wanna jump the ship mode...what would be the best way to ditch the stuff I have for cash for warmachine/Hordes?? I would do trades, but I'd like to support my LGS too...

Suggestions for a fellow ship jumper??

I'd suggest holding on to your GW stuff still if you can. You never know when you might get the itch to play some GW games again, and with the continuous price increases you'd be losing a lot of money dumping your army now, only to want to buy it back say 3-5 years later.

But if you really want to sell it, I suppose you could just ebay or bartertown it for cash and then use the proceeds to buy a new Hordes/Warmachine army from your LGS. I've found Hordes armies to be a lot less expensive in general then Warmachine armies though if that's a factor (mostly because Warmachine is more infantry centric...which in turn is more $$ demanding). I think I spent about $150ish for my 500pt. Troll army to start (though it has been slowly growing these last months).

@Archeron:

Have you used Bartertown?? Is it fast, do things go quickly?? I was thinking about keeping My 3 40k armies I have fully/almost fully painted and I would keep my Empire Army which was close to completion and maybe either my lizardmen or chaos, probably not both. I also wanted to ditch my confrontation stuff with the exception of my dwarves and devourers....

Plus I seem to be running out of room and I am feeling a bit dis-enchanted with the game systems all together. Everytime I try to put together something that seems cool, it just seems to get shot down or isn't viable.

For example, When the new BO (Black Orcs) were released, I wanted to do an army filled with BO's. However, game-wise they tend to be a sucky unit when compaired to orc boyz or savage orcs. The Dark Angel codex was another thing. My most effective army was a mech list, which is fine, but I was kinda hoping to do deathwing. I do know I could still do a "count as" deathwing using Lysander, but to me that's lame...and I have the sneaky suspision that Codex: Space Marine redux will nerf Terminators altogether and put everyone on the same page....

WM/Hordes doesn't seem to suffer from this. I have a large Khador force, in fact I have a Iron Fang pikeman army that has been positively supported on the PP forum boards. Most recently after seeing Morvhanna and Kormac, I am josing for a tharn themed army (say that three times fast) and so far it is working with little to change or without recieving post after post of negative BS!

My final rant would be the difference in gaming communities. 40k here on dakka is like walking through a minefield, you never know when you're gonna set on off (Read with a forest gump voice in mind!) There seems like a lot of negativity towards GW recently and for a while I was a GW fanboy, they could do little wrong in my eyes. I have been playing 40k since rogue trader, in fact that was my first miniature game, but in recent months and years, I find things waining for me....

Sorry for the long rant, but I feel like I am growing tired of trying to have and build the uber list and just want to have fun...I know...I know....I don't always have to have the killer list, but it seems like you need to at times in order to have fun, and in the majority of gaming communities that I have been apart of, it has been the way of life...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

I've reached that point with GW myself. It just stopped being fun. To build and build to keep they army stable after each codex rerelease....I built marines a while back, and now facing a rewrite already, and in line with the DA.....forget it.


Dug out my warmachine and hordes stuff...and giving it a full throttle go again.

Well, in PP games you don't tend to see the nerfing you do in GW games. However, units do shift in relative power (usually a UA or solo bumps up a previous unit) and there are definitely underpowered models/units (hammersmith, charger, etc.). PP hasn't engendered the resentment GW has and seems to be better at communicating with customers. Time will tell if that continues.

Posted By Chaplain Pallantide on 05/16/2007 1:09 PM
@Acheron:

Have you used Bartertown?? Is it fast, do things go quickly?? I was thinking about keeping My 3 40k armies I have fully/almost fully painted and I would keep my Empire Army which was close to completion and maybe either my lizardmen or chaos, probably not both. I also wanted to ditch my confrontation stuff with the exception of my dwarves and devourers....

Sorry for the long rant, but I feel like I am growing tired of trying to have and build the uber list and just want to have fun...I know...I know....I don't always have to have the killer list, but it seems like you need to at times in order to have fun, and in the majority of gaming communities that I have been apart of, it has been the way of life...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Well I haven't used Bartertown much recently (I did use it when it first started out like 10 years ago or something) but my friends have used it and seem to have done fine with it. It really just depends how good the person you are dealing with is. If they are decent folks, trades/sales seem to go fast, but you could always land that bad apple who takes forever sending payment/doesn't send payment. It's always a risk selling things over the net. I mostly use ebay/craigslist myself just for the convenience factor, but there are lots of folks that swear by Bartertown. You could also try posting in the Swap Shop here on Dakka. I've gotten and sold a few things through here over the years too, and those have always gone smoothly.

Regarding the gaming communities...I've found that it really just depends on the people you game with (yay I'm captain obvious today), irrespective of the game system.I've been in both types of communities and I have to agree that I definitely prefer the more laid back and have fun type of community than the one more focused on killer lists/crazy combos/etc. I'm lucky that my regular opponent for Hordes/Warmachine is a great guy, but lately there have been some not so cool folks spilling over from the 40k crowd as well. I just hope that they loosen up some with time and some positive influence from the laid back crowd.

Likewise though, I used to game with several people who were the same as my current gaming buddy, but we played Warhammer Fantasy instead. I usually find that the older, more mature folks, are generally more interested in having fun and more willing to try quirky missions/scenarios, as opposed to winning at all costs in the standard missions. I have no idea why this is, but it's something I've observed over the years.

Posted By jmurph on 05/17/2007 6:22 AM
Well, in PP games you don't tend to see the nerfing you do in GW games. However, units do shift in relative power (usually a UA or solo bumps up a previous unit) and there are definitely underpowered models/units (hammersmith, charger, etc.). PP hasn't engendered the resentment GW has and seems to be better at communicating with customers. Time will tell if that continues.

Well the Seraph's slipstream just got a big nerf, but then I say thank goodness for that.

A lot of folks in the Everblight Forum on PP's site are crying bloody murder, but the refreshing thing is that a lot of other people are jumping in and saying that it's really not so bad a nerf and that it was in fact fairly broken the way it was before.

Both games have their issues and problems. I get tired of both after awhile. Too much stuff to remember in WM, and being beaten by some trick you didn't remember is somewhat painful. Keeping up with all the rules clarifications and finding that something you thought worked a certain way only to be shot down mid game by someone with a print off of the forum gets tiring. It's a lot to keep track of.

Just the same playing only against the few armies or combos that people play in 40k is just as irritating. As diverse as the universe is, there is so much that just doesn't work. It becomes a challenge, but it is very disheartening.

Meh, maybe they shouldn't have been such 1 trick poney whores. EB is broken enough without a ridiculous SS. It is still incredible and worth every Fury. Hardly nerfed- just less redonkulous. :-)

I agree, Toreador. I get tired of both from time to time. 40K is way too dice and list dependant. WMs combo kills because you missed an inch get old, too. Hordes is much better in that respect. Well, at least against anything other than EB.....

The hey-day for GW is over thats for sure. But what about all that rich backgroud in 40k? Sure WM has a sorta 18th century feel to it, that fine. But I want my underhive, my ruins on strange alien worlds....

so lets do this...

play with WM rules and with 40k background but around, say 10k. Everything is there, the magic is mental powers, the infantry sans lasers, The Dark Eldar are Skorne, the Khodor are steel legion, the Cygnar are any IG, Witch Hunters are Protectorate, you get the idea....

Posted By jmurph on 05/23/2007 1:48 PM
Meh, maybe they shouldn't have been such 1 trick poney whores. EB is broken enough without a ridiculous SS. It is still incredible and worth every Fury. Hardly nerfed- just less redonkulous. :-)

I agree, Toreador. I get tired of both from time to time. 40K is way too dice and list dependant. WMs combo kills because you missed an inch get old, too. Hordes is much better in that respect. Well, at least against anything other than EB.....

I agree that Slipstream isn't much of a nerf. 

However, the 1 per turn on Vayl's dark sentinel means that she has no defense against an infantry mob and slipstream can no longer extract the weaponless wonder from enemies with reach.  She got kicked in the teeth big time since now you have to buy a dedicated watchdog / bodyguard to keep her frail ARM13/13dmg body safe.  She's less durable than Caine and her oraculus is a joke.  She needs to boost to hit with it if shes shooting at anything other than the backside of a Carnivean.

I would much rather play with older 40k rules, but with the new tighter lists

I have never seen so much fury as someone getting caster killed because they forgot you had a combination of 3 things that worked together to get it. I think WM should add a phase in to each turn of the game. The read my cards while I read your cards phase....

Posted By Toreador on 05/24/2007 8:48 AM

I think WM should add a phase in to each turn of the game. The read my cards while I read your cards phase....

This phase already exists.  It is called "your opponent's turn". 

Yeah, Vayl got hit pretty hard. But, that's why there is always Thagrosh >:->

The thing is, as each game expands, there is bound to be new stuff, rules etc added, otherwise it gets stale.

In 20 years time you might find that GW is gone, PP has went the way of GW today, and there are new companies providing gaming crack, that will eventually follow the big boys and flood the market.

Again, might...

If the current trend of growth for WM and Hordes continues as is that may be a lot sooner than later. GW has targeted and seems to continue the younger market and PP seems to be targeting the mid to late age gaming group. Although in my local FLAGS a few younger kids are playing along with the big boys.

I think Cygnar is the best "bridge" army to reach out and pull 40k ers into WM. That happened to me. The trenchers look like cool steel legion and that big trencher MG is sick.
I bet anyone here that in a year or two 40k comes out with Steam power Space Marines. GW staff is sitting around right now in the tower of evil, siping wine and plotting....

Prime tournaments are still held often, and Prime-based armies still do quite well in tournament situations.

Don't dump your old stuff; you'll regret it when your buds decide to play some Rogue Trader or 3rd ed. for the heck of it (or if/when 5th ed. comes out and it turns out to be a good game).

I really enjoy WM and find I even use some of the nerfed units from time to time (example: I use Khador mekaniks as cheap Jack marshals for my Destroyer).

I used a Sunburst Deliverer today.

Granted, it didn't do much, but I liked being able to use it and at least control a
part of what my opponent did because of it.

Posted By roneldar on 05/26/2007 2:23 AM
I think Cygnar is the best "bridge" army to reach out and pull 40k ers into WM. That happened to me. The trenchers look like cool steel legion and that big trencher MG is sick.
I bet anyone here that in a year or two 40k comes out with Steam power Space Marines. GW staff is sitting around right now in the tower of evil, siping wine and plotting....

That's what happend to me.  I love my blood angels but when I saw the Cygnar I fell in love.  Now I'm more into Warmachine then W40k and not sure if I will be able to go back.  Next pay check I will be buying Nemo , Stormclad  and a couple of Stormsmiths to add to my firepower.  For Merc's I'm thinking of Alexia and Risen unit box set. 

Thinking of? I'm told it's almost a requirement, especially considering the sheer
number of infantry hordes on the table.

I will move her to the top of my list then    :-)