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The buzz I'm hearing lately is that godzilla nids and mech eldar are the scary lists.  Since my Blood Angels got the Jervis Johnson treatment, I thought I might need a replacement for the "broken list" shelf of my army carrier.

What do 1500 point lists look like with godzilla and mech eldar?

Mech Eldar: It seems to be something along these lines, the big arguments, I will mark with an *s.

* (Many prefer Eldrad instead)
2x
Autarch on Jetbike with reaper-cannon, mandiblaster, laser lance

2 x * (Some prefer harlequins, but both go in the Falcons)
6 Fire Dragons, the exarch would have the longer range fusion gun

2 x
10 Dire Avengers with Shimmershield and power sword, blade storm, defend (Although I have seen alot with just two guns and Bladestorm) with a wave serpent which has a shuriken cannon, a twin linked star cannon, Spirit Stones, Vectored Engines

2 x * (I seem to be the only one who likes these)
5 Shining Spears, exarch has Withdraw, and the star lance.

2 x
Grav Falcon with Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Star Engines, Spirit Stones, Holofield.

There are many different variants but mainly they all have the very exspencive Falcons

Heyas,

Here's my 1500pt godzilla list:

HQ:
Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands (I&WS), Flesh Hooks, Implant Attack,
        Toxin Sacs, Toxic Miasma, Winged, 2xScything Claws,
        Warp Field - 219pts

Hive Tyrant: Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs, Psychic Scream, Twin-Linked
        Devourer, Venom Cannon - 153pts
        3xTyrant Guard, Flesh Hooks - 138pts

Elites:
DakkaFex: 2xTwin-Linked Devourers, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks - 114pts

DakkaFex: 2xTwin-Linked Devourers, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks - 114pts

CCFex: 2xScything Talons, Adrenal Glands (WS), Toxic Miasma, Flesh Hooks - 114pts

Troops:
3xRipper Swarms, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks, 36pts.

3xRipper Swarms, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks, 36pts.

3xRipper Swarms, Extended Carapace, Flesh Hooks, 36pts.

Heavy Support:
GunFex: Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks, Reinforced Chitin - 164pts

GunFex: Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks, Reinforced Chitin - 164pts

UberFex:Venom Cannon, Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands (I), Adrenal Glands (WS),
              Bonded Exoskeleton, Enhanced Senses, Flesh Hooks, Reinforced Chitin,
              Tail Weapon: Mace, Toxin Sacs, Toxic Miasma - 211pts

Total: 1499pts

There are 2 things in my list which some people would change:

1. The Close Combat fex, he hasn't performed well for me to be honest.  He's slow and rarely sees combat, but make a great objective grabber.  I might replace him with another dakka fex, they have not disappointed me thus far, they are almost too good for there points.

2. Some would drop the Uber fex for either A) Another gunfex or B) A choir of Zoenthropes...

Some list use genestealers for troop choice, I chose not too.  I like ripper swarms and I need to be more aggressive with them as they do not count toward scoring and basically they are a throw away unit.  They do well for tying up a unit until I can get a carni in there to finish the job.

I have mixed feelings about the Uberfex, he's been real fun in a couple of games, but I like the diversity of the Gunfexes...

Finally USE COVER!  Cover saves have been the greatest thing for my Zilla's.

Anyway these are just my 2 cents...Any other questions feel free to ask.

Thanks,
Chappy P!

I'm going to rant for a minute here. This isn't just directed solely at the OP as I see this happen quite a lot in this forum. People go online, find out what the "broken" lists are (and I don't really consider Mech Eldar a 'broken' list but that's another discussion) and then use lists that they found online.

Often, these same people are the ones who will complain when an army gets a nerf/balanced and claim that they are "removing options" and "dumbing down the game."

Here's an idea for the OP, keep using your Blood Angels, come up with your OWN list, and see if you can win without resorting to using the broken army of the month. I've read the BA dex in WD, there are quite a few strong builds one can make if they wanted to create their own list.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

"2 x * (Some prefer harlequins, but both go in the Falcons)
6 Fire Dragons, the exarch would have the longer range fusion gun"

I'm not sure it's worth the price for the Firepike. You're looking at 16+12+12(IIRC) - so a 40 point model for an 18" Meltagun. Most armies get a Lascannon for that price.

I can see the Dragon's Breath Flamer being worthwhile - it's cheaper and has the potential to absolutely murder Fish of Fury Fire Warriors or Imperial Guard squads.


I also agree with Ozy. There are plenty of effective lists out there for BA. Having a broken list is counter-productive. You'll win easily against people playing balanced armies and have frustration on both sides playing against other broken lists.

++ Ozy

Is there any debate these days about the rules on these guys? "A Tyranid that carries two of the same ranged weapon symbiote counts them as twin-linked." Has it been FAQed?

8 S6 shots, re-roll wounds? Not bad... But the BS3 sorta sucks.

Is there any way to make the CCFex work? I'd sorta like to take Screamer Killers, just for the historical fluff of it. Assault troops without speed really suck, but if there's three of them, I'd think they could herd the enemy somewhat?



I was thinking of using Hormagaunts, and sending them with the Flyrant. They'd keep up reasonably well I'd think.



*sigh*

The morality police have arrived, helpfully telling me how to play and enjoy the game, and having arguments with strawmen.

If you wanted to give me some truly useful advice, you could have told me to learn to ignore preachy internet posts that question the motivations of people they know nothing about, because as you'll soon see, I lack the ability to do that.

I built my own list for the BAs with the old rules. I have come up with a list for BAs under the new rules, and at some point I may play it, but it requires a fairly large amount of painting, as lot of my current BA models are no longer useful and thus not in it. The BA list was nerfed, no question, but I'd hapilly play the new list if I had the models I wanted. Unfortunately, I've already painted a lot of red Marines, and I'm not in a huge hurry to paint more.

In fact I've painted a LOT of models in a LOT of colors.

I'm not some guy who only has a pirated BA list that I won with and didn't understand, and now I need somebody to give me a new one. Don't presume that just because I ask for "broken" lists, I'm some newb looking for easy answers. I'm a tired old veteran looking for easy answers, and I've painted enough armies, had enough opponents gush over how great they look and how fun I am to play, that I don't really care how it sounds.

If it helps you put things in context, I'm the old guy that shows up for 15 minutes at the FLGS, asking the kids what the broken builds are, because I have a kid of my own, and don't have the time to keep up. I'm not the preteen lurking around all day, waiting for his mom to pick him up, asking the older kids to explain how to play.

I have 3000+ points each of Dark Angels and Necrons, 2000+ of Blood Angels Tau and Orks, plus 1000+ points of Eldar, Sisters, Guard, Space Wolves and Daemonhunters. All of them painted to a high standard. Because I put so much time into my armies, I want them to be flexible. When I show up at the FLGS and the little kids there want to play, I let him pick the points, pick the army from the ones I brought, etc. But when the older guys want to have a tournament, and I know they're bringing the brokenest lists they can build, I want a list for that too.

I'm not going to transcribe Pallantide's list and use it myself, although if I find it to be exactly what I would do with the list, I won't change it just for the sake of being different. I'm just asking what people think are these "broken" lists so I have some experience to go on. Honestly, I'm more interested in painting the models than spending the time reading and re-reading the Codices, looking for the best builds. If I'm going to invest hours and hours painting an army, I want it to be as close to broken as possible. I can always back off and go easy with it, or swap in some less powerful models for fun, or use its power to give me space to give the little kid I'm playing all the questionable LOS rulings he wants, all the take backs and re-dos he needs.

I'm one of the good guys. If you're worried about the integrity of the gaming community, maybe you should look in the mirror, and ask yourself what good it does for the hobby to run off half-cocked, assuming everyone else has the wrong intentions, and telling them how they should play?

The good news is that I already got the lists I was asking for. Thanks citadel and Pallantide.

Wow... pompous ass...

<redacted>

Well said Phryxis.

Posted By Phryxis on 06/25/2007 6:52 PM


I'm not going to transcribe Pallantide's list and use it myself, although if I find it to be exactly what I would do with the list, I won't change it just for the sake of being different.

If I'm going to invest hours and hours painting an army, I want it to be as close to broken as possible. 

I'm confused, you don't make much sense.  You won't use Pallantide's list, yet you will use it because changing it would be just to be different?  And I won't even comment on the second part. 

If you read my post, I said that I wasn't directing my comments solely at you, as I don't know you, I was just tired of seeing the same damn posts about "Whats the uber list?" or "Make me an unbeatable Mech Eldar force." 

I stand by my advice.  Find a way to use your Blood Angels force.  And I don't buy the "I have to paint some extra models" argument as you would have to do that with your shiny new Nidzilla or Mech Eldar force.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes you are. But unfortunately it has nothing to do with me. I think it's probably a condition born of arguing with imaginary people.

These "broken" lists are suggestions. I'm not going to obey them without question or thought. Conversely I'm not going to refuse to play the exact list, just to be different. If somebody posts the exact list I feel like playing, I'll still play it. If nobody posts anything I like, I'll make my own.

As it so happens, Pallantide posted a list that's about 75% what I was thinking, 25% not.



Right, no "solely" at me. That doesn't help. I don't care if you're calling me a jerk, or me and fifteen hundred other hypothetical people jerks. I'm still being called a jerk by somebody who doesn't know me.



I know I don't speak in short, blurted phrases like your boyfriend coredump, but I promise, if you actually read my posts, longwinded as they are, it's all in there.

I already explained to you that I've painted all the red Marines I care to right now. Yes I would have to paint a whole new army for these "broken" lists. But it would be new models (I've got a lot of Marines), and new color schemes and techniques (painting my standard Marine technique, all in red, is a little old).

But, whatever. Stand by your opinions. You've got so little going for you in this thread, might as well have consistency.

I'm arguing with an imaginary person? You don't exist, Phryxis? I understand that you are too lazy to come up with your own list but do you even read what you write, or does it just vomit onto the screen?

I've made my point about how I feel towards your attitude, if you want to continue to trade insults we can, but its not going to get us anywhere.

Good luck with your new "broken" army.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

How nice of you having the only 'right' way to play the game.

@Phryxis:

The Dakka Fex re-roles both Wounds and to-hits, because of the twin linking. You essentially have 2 sets of the same weapon. Some people don't have flesh hooks on them, but i like rolling 3 dice and keeping the highest for moving through diffecult terrain as I usually keep my bugs in cover.

Hormagaunts might work, but you have to watch out for synaps...That's why most list use either genestealers or swarms, you don't have to worry about synaps as much...

As far as the CC fex, it can do a couple of things...

1) It can do a number on your opponite psychologically. Most of my games the big guy was ignored and scooted around. Many don't fancy getting into HtH with the big beasty...

2) It is good for contesting quarters and grabbing objectives...that is how I have won a majority of my games. My toughest game so far was a tricked out sisters of battle. 2 Excorcist tanks can really hurt a big bug army, hence cover saves rock!

3) The next time I play, I am gonna deploy the cc fex towards the middle of the board or in the middle of my Phalanx...so I can better control where he and the enemy goes. Most of the time I have put him on a flank, but he ended up doing nothing. I really want to use him in conjuction with my flyrant to do some tag-teaming in CC...I'll experiment some more and let you know.

Essentially the way I see it is there's no such thing as a cheesy list. You just have to learn how to adapt and over come. The SoB I faced could be considered cheesy...But I over came, taking alot of wounds in the process. I won because I remembered the objectives and I had a bug on all three of them, despite losing a good deal of my army...partially due to piss poor rolling on my part.

I am here and I beleive others as well to help one another to build good list. My list is derived from the musing of Yakface and his Carnifex Article here on these boards. I researched both here and Warpshadow's website to see what worked and what didn't...

Honestly most would consider my list sub-par for Zilla nids for a couple of reasons...

1) I only use 2 dakka fexes, most use 3

2) I kit my flyrant out differently...Some use twin-linked devourers and scything claws...I wish I had done that...Zilla's can be quite shooty, very shooty...

3) Most zilla's drop the uberfex I have and use either 3 gunfexes...again after playing my army for awhile, I've been cinsidering it or they drop the Uber for a Choir like I said in my earlier post...

I am not trying to start a flame war or become some forum troll, but I too am guilty for trying to have rock hard list...I use Mauleed pattern Tac Marines (6 Man Las/Plas) and O'Shovah Council of Doom amongst other things...

I have come to see that in most cases 40K boils down to a few strong list and the rest is junked...it's one of the reasons why I am slowly turning toward Warmachine/Hordes...because the sheer number of workable list and units within the list are more numerous than 40k...IMHO...

Rant over...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Boyfriend Coredump..??

Wow, you are pompous *and* juvenile.... what's next, you stomp your feet and hold your breath??

Let's not hide our love Coredump! *rollseyes*

Apparently, agreeing with someone on an internet forum means you are gay life partners. But we're all imaginary anyway so I guess its alright.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You both can't really be surprised that someone you attacked reacted in a negative way? Or maybe you both expected Phryxis to have a deep felt change of heart to the "True Path" of wargaming once you scolded him?

Actually I did hope that he would reflect on his decision to use a list off of the net. I don't think it adds anything to the hobby, in fact I think it detracts from the hobby and gaming community when people do that instead of using their own creativity. I've only been actively posting for a few months but I think it's kind of apparent from my posting history that I don't hold much stock in the WAAC mentality.

Sorry if I sound preachy but its my opinion, you and he are welcome to your own. I never said that he HAS to play my way, he asked for suggestions in this thread and my suggestion was to come up with his own BA army using the new rules.

And I never called him gay, that was just lame. *needs an emoticon to roll eyes*

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yup, should have noticed that.

Do these Dakkafexes end up in CC very often? It seems like they'd be a candidate for tarpit units.



I was looking at that option for all the big bugs. My concern there is that diversity within a unit tends ot be a bad idea in 40K... Usually better to go all shooty or all hitty with any one unit. But with the Flyrant I think you get a lot for what you pay for. The base 3A with the Devourer is crazy. Probably well worth trading 1A when you do get to CC to have six shots on the way in.

The Devourer's lack of AP concerns me a bit, tho.



No, it's not that at all. It's just that the only way I can imagine somebody agreeing with the insanely stupid things you've said to this point is if they were actually in love with you.



This is one of those threads where I spend five minutes trying to think of how to say something even more simply than I already have, and then finally realize it's impossible... It's frustrating, cause I want to break out some really convoluted insults, and I know you just won't follow.

In any case, yeah, you are talking to an imaginary person. I exist just fine. But you're not talking to me.

You started this thread by scolding some stereotype you've created in your own little head. I tried to tell you what I'm actually about and you ignored me. You even informed you "didn't buy" my statements.

That's insane.

You presumed to know my motivations. When I told you what they actually are, you told me I was wrong... About my own motivations.

"I don't feel like painting any more Blood Angels right now."
"Yeah you do."

Funny, but it doesn't FEEL like I want to.

Since it's fashionable to tell people what their motviations are, let me return the favor, plus actually be correct: The person you wish you were arguing with is somebody that has one powergamed list they bought off eBay, who goes to FLGS and beats up on little kids, and has no idea how to really play. You've decided to pretend that's who I am, no matter what I say.

I could (and did) tell you that I have over a half dozen armies, all lists of my own design, all painted by my own hand. That wouldn't matter, because that's not what you feel like arguing with.

I could tell you that I stopped playing my Necrons in 3rd Edition, not because they couldn't win, but because they couldn't lose, and I grew tired of how easy it was to castle up and shoot my opponent off the table. That wouldn't matter, because that's not what you feel like arguing with.

I could tell you how I let the last kid I played rule that his Leman Russes had LOS to my Hammerheads, even when all they could see was antenna tips, because he was about 12, had no idea what was going on, and was clearly just having fun getting out the pie plate. That wouldn't matter, because that's not what you feel like arguing with.

I could tell you that I saw yakface's excellent big bug model and it made me interested in painting an army of big bugs, and, really, my primary motivation in choosing a list is the painting it entails. That wouldn't matter, because that's not what you feel like arguing with.

I could tell you a lot of things, but, really, why bother?

Here's a guess, tell me how close I am: You only own one army, Dark Angels. When the new Codex came out, and people talked about how bad it was, it made you angry. Am I close?

Just out of curiousity, do you know who Percey Bysshe Shelley is?

@Phryxis:

"Do these Dakkafexes end up in CC very often? It seems like they'd be a candidate for tarpit units."

My Dakka fexes have rarely been caught in CC...Normally they are shooty enough to thin out the opposition. The few ties they have ended up in CC, they still were rock hard due to their stats.

"I was looking at that option for all the big bugs. My concern there is that diversity within a unit tends ot be a bad idea in 40K... Usually better to go all shooty or all hitty with any one unit. But with the Flyrant I think you get a lot for what you pay for. The base 3A with the Devourer is crazy. Probably well worth trading 1A when you do get to CC to have six shots on the way in.

The Devourer's lack of AP concerns me a bit, tho."



Well, I love the Gun fexes, with both the Barbed strangler for infantry and the occasional tank and the venom cannon for AT, they rock! I love them and have been thinking about doing another one instead of my uberfex.

Don't worry too much about the devourers AP...usually the enemy is rolling so many dice, that he's bound to fail a few saves...this is especially true of the Dakka fexes. 8 re-roll to hits and to wounds is nothing to sneeze at.

Anyway, I'd say buy/model and paint up the things you know you want and proxy the other stuff for several games and see what suits you best. I made the mistake of buying and putting together my fexes before buying the codex, so I often times remind my opponants what I have and what my bugs are armed with. It usually doesn't cause an issue and they seem cool with things, but I know there would be people out there would have a cow about how I modelled my army.

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Posted By Phryxis on 06/26/2007 7:53 PM

Here's a guess, tell me how close I am: You only own one army, Dark Angels. When the new Codex came out, and people talked about how bad it was, it made you angry. Am I close?

Just out of curiousity, do you know who Percey Bysshe Shelley is?

I find your hypocrisy amusing, now who's making assumptions?  I own many armies and I've played Dark Angels since 2nd ed.  My 3rd ed Dark Angels rarely lost (and it wasn't with an optimized list) so I started collecting Dark Eldar.  I tried various lists and tweaked my own list until I was happy with it.  This past weekend I went 2-1 with my Dark Eldar, also scoring the most victory points in one game out of everyone in the tournament.  I am happy with my result as it is with MY army.  I spent a year getting to know my army and I still have a bit more to learn. 

BTW I actually love the new DA codex (and have quite a few heated arguments on Dakka defending the new codex).  I used to have IG and Nid armies but I sold them years ago.  And I have 3 armies for Fantasy.

And of course I know who Percy Shelley is you idiot.  I just like using a picture of Ozymandias from The Watchmen as my avatar.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

You're pretty much looking at 6 saves for anything T4 or less, which is pretty much everything that comes in units of more than 6 models. It's definitely an amazing value.

Has anyone ever tried to tarpit you? With WS3 and 2A, even as strong as the Fex is, he could spend the whole game trying to get through a squad of 10 Guardsmen. They're certainly not going to kill him, but with even slightly poor rolling, he could be there all game. Do you ever find yourself backing up with this guy?



Yeah, they do seem very nice, and they also seem straightforward to use, which is nice. Park them in some ruins or woods, shoot away.

Do you see Regeneration as being useful on a Gunfex?



I'll have to take a look at the model count of the list I arrive at, and see if it seems worth doing. It's really more about the painting than the list for me. Speaking of which, I'd like to figure out a way to model the Elite Fexes to be a bit smaller than the Heavy Fexes. Any ideas on how to do that? Could a Tyranid Warrior or Tyrant Guard be mungified to look like a smallish Fex?



This is one of the best things you've said so far. It's like a layer cake of stupid.

Layer one is that I didn't make an assumption. An assumption is something taken for granted. I made a guess, and asked if it was correct. If I end by asking if I'm correct, how can I be taking it for granted? That's right... I can't.

That layer was delicious. What other treats will my fork find?

Ooh, the next layer is you accusing me of hypocrisy. You made assumptions about who I am, and held onto them even after you were told otherwise. That's ridiculous, insulting and childish. You obviously recognize that, because you think it's a winning argument to accuse me of doing the same thing you did. The problem is that I didn't, as we just discussed, only now you've also admitting that you're an insulting little clown.

"You're such a jerk, you remind me of myself."  Great insult, dude.

Surely there's no more stupid left? Surely?

Oh, no, there is. I guessed that you have one army, Dark Angels, and you got mad when people criticized the Codex. You were dumbfounded by how wrong I am. Only it doesn't seem that I am... You currently own "many" armies, which in your world appears to be two, and you've had quite a few heated arguments about the Codex.

Wow, dude, I'm stuffed. Please, don't try to top yourself. You need to walk away at the top of your game.

Well, given that I'm an idiot, and you're such a literary scholar, then I'm sure you mustn't have missed what I noticed... There's just such a fitting symmetry between your posts and the poem from which you derive your namesake.

Just as time reduced the accomplishments of Ozymandias to little more than an expanse of barren desert and an old decrepit statue, so too has the passing of this thread worn away your credibility to a sad, wind polished stump. You adorn your posts with the same passage that Ozymandias used to adorn his own pitiable failure, and just as that forgotten king presides over dust, you too preside over an intellectual wasteland, devoid of anything useful, admirable or tolerable.

In closing, I'll steal a few words from the other part of your signature: be a man and admit you're wrong. You came to this thread looking to start an argument with anybody who would listen. You insulted somebody you know nothing about, and you've admitted as much without apologizing. I have every right to respond as I have. I'm not the only one in this thread who's said so. You're grasping at straws, trying to make me that bad guy in all this, when all I did was ask an honest question, and then defend myself when attacked. You're the problem. Be a man and admit you're wrong.

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/26/2007 5:12 PM
Actually I did hope that he would reflect on his decision to use a list off of the net. I don't think it adds anything to the hobby, in fact I think it detracts from the hobby and gaming community when people do that instead of using their own creativity.

Well, yes, that does tend to be the opinion of the ignorant and undereducated. Only a fool doesn't make use of knowledge other people have already figured out. Has your expertise in in the field of wargames been recognized by other authorities? No? Then why do you think your opinion has any value to other people?

Buoyancy, don't start with me again. You are so !@#$ing stupid it amazes me. I never said not to take advice from people off the net, hell I used lots of advice when crafting my DE list and I learned a lot (like how freakin awesome the Xenospasm is). My rant was towards people who just find the uber list online and rote copy it. I do not think that adds anything to the hobby.

But you are too #$%@ing stupid to actually read my posts, instead just jump into a discussion you weren't even part of to start a flame war with me. Reading comprehension is your friend. But then, I think it might be your only friend.

BTW, who are the gaming authorities and where do they hold their evaluations of online opinions?  Or is this just more of your BS?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I agree that you shouldn't always copy word for word an army list, but I feel that with 40K there are certain builds which will look like duplicates of each other.

Zilla's tend to be the same, my list varies as I have stated before. I use a CC fex instead of another dakka fex. I use ripper swarms instead of genestealers. And I use an uberfex instead of a Choir. Ultimately the builds are gonna be the same or nearly the same.

Marines again favor several builds. I have seen alot of list which use the Mauleed pattern marine list. It contains a Librarian in Terminator armor, a terminator retinue with 2 Ass cannons, another unit of termies a sprinkle of Las/Plas squads, some AssCan armed Landspeeders and maybe a tank or to to taste.

Or you have the 1st and 10 list, probably the best "Deathwing" list there is. 2 scout squads, maybe 2 landspeeders again with AssCan's and as many terminators you can squeeze in.

Drop pod list look the same...

Mech Tau...They usually look the same...

My point is the with 40k and even fantasy, certain units are considered the it thing! Not having them or not min/maxing them is looked down upon. With certain units being the cat's meow, you tend to get list that are very similar.

When Mech Eldar hit it big, the common list was:
Autarch or Farseer on bike

Fire dragons, Harlies or Banshees riding in Falcons

a unit or 2 of Dire avengers in wave serpents

and 2-3 falcons

Or IG, when someone like HBMC has figured out what the optimal build is and the rest is junk. Most guard list end up looking the another.

Again I am not trying to start or continue a Flame war or become an Internet Troll and I am not accusing you Ozymandis of these things, but I have seen over the last several years people cookie cutting list. Is it right? Probably not, but it happens. I didn't see this post being that...I felt like it was one gamer saying, "Hey, what does a zilla list look like? and How does it run?"

I am more than happy to help someone out, especially with zilla's! The army can be expensive than hell to put together. Most 40k armies are...

Again, this is why I love PP and Warmachine/Hordes cause there is no optimal build, sure some are stronger than others, but If you like a unit, then squeeze it in. Or build an army around an idea or theme which is easier to do in WM/Hordes than 40k or Fantasy.

A recent example would be in WM I love the Iron Fang Pikemen, so I build an army themed after them. I use Irusk a Spriggan Jack, which looks like IFP, 2 units of IFP with attached command group, a greylords unit and a unit of widowmakers...

That might sound strange to you if you don't play, but the vast majority of my army is based around the Unit I love...

In fantasy and in 40k, it's not that way...My Fantasy example is with Black Orcs.

I love the new Black Orc plastics, but when the unit came out and I tried to make a list it was universally shot down, by the dakka community, the Warmonger club and TWF...

Needless to say, making list can be difficult and I think alot of people take advice and maybe change a thing here and tweek a unit there, but in the end of the day the list may and often will look like another persons somewhere on this huge internet we all surf...

Sorry for the rant,

Thanks,
Chappy P!

"Needless to say, making list can be difficult and I think alot of people take advice and maybe change a thing here and tweek a unit there, but in the end of the day the list may and often will look like another persons somewhere on this huge internet we all surf..."

Not to mention that certain units are more effective and will be taken more often regardless. It's not the fault of the internet that GW made Assault Cannons stupidly good and people took two of them in Terminator Squads instead of one 'as was intended'.

The internet has almost nothing to do with that. I faced Space Wolves armies in 2nd edition that fielded 27 Assault Cannons.

Similarly, Eldrad is so easily and visibly better than a standard Farseer for his points that it's not the fault of the internet and people copying lists that you see him in every army.

The reason why so many 40K lists are identical is because GW screwed up and made many of the choices dramatically better than others of the same points cost. When was the last time you saw inducted Stormtroopers in a Sisters army?

Compare this to Fantasy. I play Empire and Orcs so I can speak to them. Aside from a couple gunline armies, no two lists are the same. Halbardiers and Swordsmen are pretty well balanced against each other. Orc Boyz, Black Orcs and Savage Orcs can all play a role depending on what you want to field.

If the 40K Codexes were properly play-tested, then you wouldn't need to worry that one 200 point unit was less then half as effective as another 200 point unit. Army list building would be about integrating flexibility and customizing to playstyle rather than crunching out the max number of rending hits a turn. Unfortunately, GW seems to increasingly be going towards the opposite approach of making units either worthless or no-brainers in turns.

[/rant]

So anyway, I actually see where Phryxis is coming from and I wish to help you out, getting back to the the OP.

I don't really have lists for you, since I don't play those armies - but I do think I can give you some advice since the local store has a Mech Eldar player and a Godzilla player who are both pretty good (and that's saying a bit for the Mech Eldar player since he's still in his teens).

Lets start with Nidzilla -

The core of the list revolves around the DakkaFex's - Enhanced Senses, 2x TL Devourers, with or without fleshhooks. 113 or 114 points, these guys are actually the teeth of the list I feel.

You should take about 3 of them and run them together in a group so they can concentrate firepower. Their biggest danger, as you guessed it, was assault. If your opponent swamps them with multiple assault squads or something similar, they will die to hidden fists. Assault is not the place to be for your big bugs.

Now to counter your assault weakness, you take the Flying Tyrant. Some people don't go for the Warp Field (2+/6+ Save) and try to do the Chior thing, but I wouldn't bother. 2x Scything Talons, Wings, WS, S, and I upgrades and Flesh Hooks are essential. I think he weighs in about 200 points or so, and implant attack is great for when you're going one on one with other big nasties. With the above config he can down Demon Princes (and that's the old non crappy princes, not the newfangled nerfed ones).

Anti-tank is the next area you look to. Traditionally this is filled via SniperFex's, Enhanced Senses, Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon. Then you start adding defensive upgrades - Start with the Extra Wound, then I think you go for the 2+ save though some people argue with the extra toughness. To be honest, go for all 3 upgrades and maybe fleshooks to call it a day.

Now some people would just take 3 and call it done for heavy support, but it's argable if that works or not. If you're going to try and use gaunts (which is a good idea in many cases) then you should take 3 Zoanthropes for that last heavy choice, that gives you Synapse that starts on the table in escallation - which is huge if you're going to try and do gaunts.

If you're not going to run gaunts or something that needs synapse, then by all means take the 3rd Heavy Fex. Either take another DakkaFex in heavy (which works in 1500 points, but is a waste in games bigger than that), or go for the third SniperFex - it's not a bad idea.

If you do go for the zoanthropes, you still have one last area to get anti-tank from - the second tryant who has to walk. Strength and BS upgrades are essential and then you get a walking BS4 S8 Venom Cannon with 3 shots. Give him some Tyrant Guard if you really want to be mean and make a durable unit. You can either use them for counter charge and use Scything Talons for the second weapon or go with a set of twin linked devourers, good choices either way.

CC Fex's should generally be avoided if you want to be competitive. They will not see combat vs. a competent opponent, but if you want to do a unit for fun painting wise, they'd make good choices in your games vs. the little kids who you take it easy on.

The last question for Zillas is what you want for your "not-big-bugs" units. I think there are 3 Options worth considering:

1.) Rippers for FOC requirements, Ravenors for Counter Charge.

This is what our local Zilla player uses and it works well. The rippers get leaping and the WS upgrade, basically to see combat and to really piss off shooty marine squads without Power Fists. It's amazing how long 3 or 4 ripper bases will stay alive when they're only being hit on 4's.

Ravenors are great counter charge units that actually can kill marines. And they're stupid fast, for 80 points for a unit of 2 with Scything talons, it's easy to spam all the fast slots with them and call it a day. You need something to do counter charge from your vulnerable shooty bugs. It should be noted that these really only kill marines well and fold under numbers.

The above combo works out well as it doesn't need synapse to work at all.

2.) The stealer option.

Basically you take what points you have left over and spend it on stealers. It's main plus is that it doesn't need synapse to work, it kills marines, and you get more of them than you get ravenors.

My gripe with them is that at 1500 points, you don't get enough stealers to be decent. What you get are a few small broods that beg for heavy bolter fire and give up VP's to your opponent. You COULD try and do the "Monsterous Creature Wall" in nonescalation games, where you advance your army behind some fex's, with the flyrant hiding back there or just stealers, who then come out and play when they're close enough.

The MC wall isn't always a good idea though, especially not against a SAFH marine/IG army.

3.) The final option is Gaunts. These require synapse to work, so you have to cut into your big bug count, but they give you a few things like numbers, and target overload.

This is my personal favored option, and though I don't run zillas or Nids at all, if I did - I'd use gaunts. At 1500 you can take a good amount of gaunts and these guys can do double duty:

1 Screen your big bugs from assault units against nasty assault armies.
2 Run out ahead and tie up shooty units and divert firepower from the big bugs.

Really at 5 points per fleet of foot wound, you can't go wrong with these guys, and at 1500 points you're still fitting in a good amount of models if you do it right. Not bad IMO. At higher points levels, you can really pack in the numbers of gaunts and just send them to tie up units you don't want shooting at you - devastators, las/plas squads, tar pit assault units with power fists way better than rippers can. I mean seriously the only downside is that they don't kill marines or other MC's in CC the way that other units can - but if you're playing a high enough points game you can fit Ravenors in there for that kind of duty AND pack in the gaunts.

I did manage to find a list I cooked up for my own meta-gaming purposes for Zillas on what I'd do if I ran em, here's what I got:



I can also give some stuff on Mech Eldar, but that'll have to wait a while. I hope this is helpful for you.

Mech Eldar

Couple of basic ideas on them.

The list revolves around 3 Holofield+Spirit Stone wearing tanks. This means Falcons or Fire Prisms. Looking through the heavy support section, they are the clear winners in terms of what to take.

Going for the rest of the list isn't so straight forward, your entire list design is going to revolve around what you take in heavy.

Falcons are useless without a squad to deliver.
Fireprisms are useless if they're not shooting.

Granted that goes out the window on the last turn of the game when either tank can go claim an objective. But you really want those points working for you throughout the game, not just at the end (and sometimes you won't get to go second).

So if you're going to take 3 Falcons, you want to make sure you take 3 squads of something to transport in there, which is usually Firedragons or Harlequins, and IMO Harlies are the better of the two options.

The problem comes into the fact that at 1500 points, it's really hard to fit multiple units of 'Quins in Falcons while keeping the rest of your army decent at the same time. You will lack anti-tank, you will lack numbers, you will lack a lot of things and it isn't pretty.

So at 1500 I prefer the 1 Falcon kitted with Quins (who BTW always take the Shadowseer and the Harlequins Kiss), and then two Fire Prisms.

The main downfall of the prism is that it gets exposed to shots and when doing that holofield roll, a 4+ being the lowest score on either dice just meant that your Prism became useless till the last turn when it comes to tankshocking or getting objectives.

Still, at 1500 I think that's the best idea to do for your heavies. You get a nice bomb of a unit you get to set off, and you get good anti-tank and anti-MEQ power all in one.

Then comes the rest of your list.

Dire Avengers in Waveserpents are a nice unit. The problem is both points cost and practicality.

It's hard to hide 3 Heavy Skimmers and then 2 Serpents during deployment. And if your Serpents are getting shot, bad things can happen since they're not that resilient. Also the problem is that if your opponent is using a min/maxed SM army or is IG and has lots of expendable squads, they'll come out, shoot the hell out of that unit, and then get hit by AP4 guns and die. Also you're spending a lot of points on non-scoring waveserpents.

So the default troops choice, in my view, is either pathfinders or guardian jetbikes, and in the context of the mech list, guardian jetbikes so win out.

The rest of the list kind of writes itself as you go through your other options. Mechanized, I prefer the Autriarch on the bike, he gives a ton of hitting power on the charge, and to back him up you use...shining spears. The joke from 3rd Edition is back with a vengance as the new "default" Fast Attack choice (IMO). They hit stupid hard and with hit and run, make for great ways to piss off your opponent. Their biggest problem, along with most other things in the Eldar list, is that they fold to the counter charge, especially a MEQ counter charge. And unlike the other stuff in the list, man these guys are powerfist bait.

The problem is, you really start to run out of effective options in the army, so you really can go one or two ways - all shooty (Dire Avengers in Serpents, plus the Skimmer loadout in Heavy, and a farseer for support) or go for mostly assaulty with the autriarch, jetbikes, and shining spears...and the skimmer loadout in Heavy.

There are other options in fast like Warp Spiders or swooping hawks, but to be honest I'm not that impressed with them on Paper, and I haven't played against them nor have I wanted to borrow an army and try to experiment with the Eldar much, so I can't speak with authority on those units. Though IMO, the Warp Spiders are the better unit.

At higher points games, you really start being able to take mixes of everything, though it becomes much better off taking multiple falcons with Harlies in it to do nasty things. You can get anti-tank in other places in the list, and at higher points you can really take things like spears with dire avengers in Serpents, to really put the hurt on.

From my experience, they play well in objective based games, but from playing against them more I have learned something about the list that would piss me off as an owner of it: One bad set of dice rolls and your entire army can fall apart.

If your opponent downs one of the heavy skimmers, it hurts, a lot. If you flub your to-hit rolls on the Autriarch or the Spears, it's going to hurt, a lot. Bad rolling in some situations really hurts you here a lot more than it can in say Godzilla or in a SAFH IG/Marine list. With godzilla, if your opponent rolls well, you take a wound. In Mech Eldar, if your opponent rolls well, you just lost one of the key parts of your army.

Though to be honest, your opponent has to roll well, and most of the time terrain and smart manuvering can stop that from being a possibility. And when Mech Eldar works, boy you can control the game and really put the screws in, limiting how, what, and where engagements happen - and when you need brute force, a Falcon with Harlequins can really take a lot of hits and deliver a really big punch.

It should be said though, that while Harlequins are really good in a Falcon - your opponent can be ready for this and if you annihilate a squad on the charge and say, can't consolodate into a new squad, the quins are dead. Also be prepared to have your 'Quins cock-blocked as things jump behind the Falcon to prevent them from getting out. I've done that to good effect and I've done the "sacrifice the 115 point las/plas squad so the harlies don't massacre the rest" by moving a squad into a position where they either have to be charged or the quins can't consolodate into a new squad and are then gunned down.

Take into account that this is with a really nasty min/maxed marines list and isn't always possible if your opponent isn't playing with a really kitted out list either.

Anyway, hope this kind of info helps you out. I'm not used to giving advice on how to use Eldar, I'm more in line with figuring out how to kill the bastards and there are plenty of areas of the list that I'm not 100% sure of my opinion of them yet.

Posted By Ozymandias on 06/27/2007 11:24 PM
Buoyancy, don't start with me again. You are so !@#$ing stupid it amazes me.

I'm stupid? You're the person who thinks that we are naive enough to believe your tall tales about people who win against tough opponents using the Dark Angels codex. You're the person who refused to provide any data, and instead demanded that we treat your worthless anecdotes as though they contained useful information. You're the person who isn't even capable of making basic statistical calculations of the expected outcomes of dice rolls.

I never said not to take advice from people off the net, hell I used lots of advice when crafting my DE list and I learned a lot (like how freakin awesome the Xenospasm is). My rant was towards people who just find the uber list online and rote copy it. I do not think that adds anything to the hobby.

You know, perhaps you should go back and read Phryxis' first response to your incredibly insulting first post in this thread. You know, the one where he states: "I'm not some guy who only has a pirated BA list that I won with and didn't understand, and now I need somebody to give me a new one. Don't presume that just because I ask for "broken" lists, I'm some newb looking for easy answers. I'm a tired old veteran looking for easy answers, and I've painted enough armies, had enough opponents gush over how great they look and how fun I am to play, that I don't really care how it sounds." But then, understanding what he wrote would require you to be able to read beyond the elementary school level.

BTW, who are the gaming authorities and where do they hold their evaluations of online opinions?  Or is this just more of your BS?

Well, you certainly aren't one, since you're nothing more than a GW fanboy (Or possibly just your standard viral marketer type). An expert would be somebody who has won multiple national level tournaments, or somebody who has equivalent experience. Anybody else's online opinion is worth only the paper it's printed on.