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There are some armies that have ok psychic defense, and others that have none.

So there are 3 questions.
#1. Will this be like Fear the Darkness, and not seen all that much, and the fear worse than the reality?
#2. Do you now have to spend points on anti-psychic wargear/units?
#3. And if you have to, how do you protect yourself?

#1. Librarians and Fear the Darkness was all the rage when the SM codex first came out. But for most tournaments you prepare for them, and they have little effect on the most popular armies, SM, CSM, Eldar (w/Avatar), etc. The power is devastating to Orks and Tau, but the odds of encountering one of these armies is so low, that it does not make the purchase of the Librarian worth it. So I have need seen a Librarian in a while (Not that they are not out there, but there use has rapidly declined).

#2. So, if every chaos army is going to have one, are you going to have to protect yourself from it? Some armies have a piece of wargear you can buy that is that armies best protection from psychic powers, some armies will have to use a lot of points for units that can help them. Are these worth the cost to protect yourself?

#3. Tyranids have Shadow in the Warp, and Eldar have Runes of Warding to try to protect them. IG, SM and any Imperial army can take an Inquisitor from one of the <st1:place>Ordos</st1:place> to try to help them. I would recommend one from the Witchunters since they are the ones that can put a hurting on psychic users.

But there are a lot of armies out there without any psychic defense. Orks, Necrons, Tau and oddly enough, it looks like they took all of the anti-psychic protection away from chaos. There is no longer any Collars of Khorne, or Warp Blade or Talisman of Tzeentch.

Is the only protection for these armies to go Mech?

Am I the only Tau player that you see on a regular basis? Didn't think they were that rare out in the wild.

Anyways, I'm figuring that although the Tau can't counterspell the Lash, they can utilize their skimmers in a reverse skimmer wall to block the forced advance of their units. Operating under the assumption that the Lash does not allow movement through your own troops, placing a line of 3-4 skimmers oriented towards the Chaos army and ~12 inches from your own guys should prevent getting sucked into close combat. Crisis Suit teams would be the primary target of the spell, and as such should definitely utilize LOS blocking terrain to the fullest. In extreme cases, grounding a skimmer can provide a LOS-blocking JSJ terrain piece to avoid getting Lashed.

In a shoot-out situation (bunching targets up to plasma cannon/Vindicator them) , the Tau have no shortage of anti-Vindicator weaponry and now that Oblits are down to T4, plasma rifles are more effective then before. Still going to be bad if the Lash Prince can draw LOS and drag a Fireknife squad out in the open, but that's up to the players. Might not hurt to start bringing Shield Drones along vs. PlasCannon though only the Scatter Dice will save vs. the Vindicator.

Since neither Princes or Sorcerers have 2+ Armour, Ionheads are ideal for hunting them down and killing them. I can see the Chaos army moving their flying Princes around the battlefield trying to find a good LOS while the Ionheads and Pirahnas go after them. For Tau IMO, the Lash seems like one of those killer abilities, but can be countered by good play, much like Fear. Against a unsuspecting or unskilled Tau player, then yeah, it'll rank right up there with FotD for getting armies killed.

I think that although Lash is easily as useful as Fear of Darkness & Fury of the Ancients, there are a lot of ways to minimise its effectiveness. I would never count on a Psychic Hood or Runes of Warding to stop the spell (they are just a random factor that might help you in case your conventional strategies fail.) Use fast units to hunt down and kill the Daemon Princes and end the threat right there and then. If the Daemon Prince is sitting behind some LOS blocking terrain in his deployment zone just be patient and wait for him to make his move and then focus fire on him.


I think we'll see Lash of Submission much more often than Fear of Darkness.

isn't "shoot him dead when he shows himself to use it" enough of a strategy? The survivability of these princes seems really low. Obviously they can try to keep them in close combat on your turns but that isn't always going to be possible

For something like Tau, you'd probably end up keeping your unit sizes small, making sure you're out of LOS with suits, keeping everything back (lash has what, a 24" range?) and shooting the princes with railguns. But this power will absolutely devastate my farsight list with a vindicator if they can get within range of the lash. I'll have no defense.

I also think we'll see the lash more often than FOTD because...well, what else are you going to give your DPs, or spend those points on? I'm still not sold on the overall effectiveness of the lash once people have played against it enough, but it's not like FOTD which is canceled out by a lot of armies by default.

Posted By lambadomy on 08/15/2007 12:20 PM
isn't "shoot him dead when he shows himself to use it" enough of a strategy? The survivability of these princes seems really low.

I'll have to agree with this statement.

The lastest in the "no options" line of army books really limits the options in keeping these things alive...

#1. Will this be like Fear the Darkness, and not seen all that much, and the fear worse than the reality?

I think it will become a standard as 1 Demon prince and commonly seen as 2.

#2. Do you now have to spend points on anti-psychic wargear/units?

Not necesarily....

#3. And if you have to, how do you protect yourself?

Play IG, where no single character or unit is big enough to be worth much.

or

Plan for a nasty counter charge unit that can kill the thing, like a Roughrider unit. Especially if composed of 1 wound low save models were instant death doesnt matter, wouldnt a hidden glove guy in a 10 man unit still kill this thing pretty much all the time?

or

Take a S10 weapon, and insta kill the DP before he ever charges assuming you can get 1...

or

play everything mounted and never get out; target denial

Daemon princes are immune to instant-death by default.

I may fit a Culexus assassin into my next IG list for use against Lash, just to see if it works.

DP are immune to Instant death by default, is that confirmed?

?

Yowch.

Thx.

This actually brings up a good question and possible strategy...

If the troops targeted are classed as jump infantry and are targeted by the lash are moved, who chooses how they are moved? Its states that jump troops can move either way (walking or jumping)?

The reason I say this is you could feasibly surround your Suits with a squad of 10 kroot and therefore block the Suits movement since you can only move through bigger base sizes. Equal and smaller base sizes need to have enough space between the base open for the unit to move in-between.

If we are not talking about Jump troops its seems apparent that you can block the effects of the lash by blocking the targeted units movement with another of your own units.

Even though no single IG unit may be worth much the ability to quickly get an assault unit into their line and start breaking up LOS is pretty bad for guard



Counter charge is not particularly reliable because the lash is going to make it difficult to keep your counter charge unit close enough to victim units to actually counter charge. Not to mention that the chaos player can just pull units into weapons range/out of cover and blast them.



Already covered above



Works, but it will cut into your ability to return fire until the DP is gone... unless you have an armored company

Everyone keeps talking about DP w/lash, but I think everyone should be more worried about sorceror with lash. The DP is pretty easy to kill. T5 3+/5+ with 4 wounds does not invincible make. Especially since so many armies are metagamed out there to take on Nidzilla. A bike sorceror or winged sorceror (while not as tough) is harder to target just as fast and gets that cool IC rule, and there are two of them.

As for Blackmoor's first question: No, I think Lash will stick around because there really aren't a million viable builds for HQs for Chaos like there used to be. Unlike SMs, who have chaplains and captains to compete for Librarian slots, there's nothing really in the Chaos HQ to really recommend itself (Lords w/Daemon Weapons aren't reliable). Also, just forcing a player to mech up means that there will be less fire coming at a chaos army (unless armored company).

For the second question: maybe. That depends on what the power builds for Chaos turn to be. If they end up having a lot of problems keeping the DP/sorceror alive, then maybe not. Also, if mech works against them (which, with the exception of Eldar, I don't think it will) then psychic defense isn't necessary.

Protecting yourself again depend on the unit. With DPs, get enough mobile firepower units to take them down. A combination of mechanized units and things like crisis suits or deep striking vet squads should put paid to the DP. A sorceror will probably require somthing like a piranha or land speeder with a multi-melta to drive right up to him and nuke him.

To the original question of this topic: Tier 1? No, I don't think so. Mech Eldar is still better. Nidzilla may have to watch out but overall, I think old IW were better than anything the new codex can put up.

This thread dove-tails nicely with Mauleed's thread dealing with reducing AT. Is it possible that this is a minor/weak attempt at encouraging more vehicles to be used?

Protect yourself from FotD with mech.
Protect yourself from the lash with mech.
No more 5 wound lascannons.

Another feeble attempt to make vehicle viable again?

My plan is to have more threats than one (or two) Lash moves can counter. With plenty of assaulting units. But that is how I play anyway.

I think that you may start to see a resurgence of Vindicare assassins in an IG army. Additionally, the Inquisitor you must take can always be equipped with a hood, etc. The nastiest Lash guy I think is the Sorcerer since he can be hidden amongst the chaos army. However, a snipers bullet can end that pretty quick. Has anyone thought of the Psyocculum wargear? I don't have my book with me, but I thought it allowed you to target a psyker regardless. If that is the case, take and elite inquisitor and stick him with a anti-tank squad.

Capt K

I think the entire chaos codex is a thinly veiled ploy to sell more vehicles.

Posted By Moz on 08/16/2007 6:53 AM
I think the entire chaos codex is a thinly veiled ploy to sell more vehicles.

...

 

What?

I am agreeing with nikeforever22.

You'd be a fool to go mechanised against the last codex chaos book: with 90 point 5 wound lascannons, tank hunting autocannon havocs, and the occasional IW list with 9 oblits + 4 heavies.

The antitank bite of chaos gone completely (and no, 9 T4(5) overcosted oblits don't make up for it), and here's this ridiculously powerful ability that has the potential to wreck any force that doesn't bring sufficient vehicles to ride around in or use as mobile walls.

It may not sell more chaos vehicles. But I am definitely considering a chimera or 4 for my IG now (if I can stave off quitting in disgust long enough).

I agree with Moz and Nike. Since the DA codex there has been a trend to increased points costing of heavy weapons, restrictions on how many you can take (1 per 10 guys, etc.), etc. Overall, DA/ BA, and now Chaos has lost roughly 30% of their firepower from anti-tank type weapons. Additionally, lowering the cost of transports...hell even the chaos landraider got a drop in points. 220pts is not too shabby and comes somewhat close to what a landraider should cost. The only downside is that with that reduction of firepower.. Mech Eldar armies, Nidzilla, and Mech Tau just got slightly stronger. However, the nerf of marines in general allowed lower tier armies to compete with them a little better. Daemon Hunters definitely received a boost since their units can actually do something against chaos HQ's and such.

Capt K

The last few codexes seem to be making harder to get cheap heavy weapons. Shudder the thought, but I started looking at a completely mechanized Dark Angel army for tourney play. What really makes me hesitant is the Space Marine Codex is probably the most widely used codex still and one can still put out massive numbers of inexpensive las cannons.

Against the Lash with my Ulthwe, I still have Eldrad and need to really try and keep the Demon Princes out of range. Two Princes (or Sorcerer on a bike) will be a difficult proposition with my Guardian heavy army.

I'm curious to see how much Lash based armies we'll see in Baltimore.

Can someone explain to me why people keep saying that Tyranids can use Shadow in the Warp as defense against the Lash? That's like saying that the Necrons have flayed ones and so are good in melee.

Shadow in the Warp takes up a Tyrant's only psychic power, which I would rather use for pretty much anything else. It makes it a bit harder to pass psychic tests, but totally takes the danger of failing them away. Tyranids can't go mech, every unit in it is vulnerable to the Lash. My current army doesn't even have a Tyrant in it, now I have to take one? So I have to take an expensive (albeit effective) HQ choice and spend points to use it's only psychic ability on an otherwise useless power that makes my opponent's psychic tests a little harder, and that's defense agains the Lash?

Posted By hotflungwok on 08/16/2007 1:32 PM
Can someone explain to me why people keep saying that Tyranids can use Shadow in the Warp as defense against the Lash? That's like saying that the Necrons have flayed ones and so are good in melee.

Shadow in the Warp takes up a Tyrant's only psychic power, which I would rather use for pretty much anything else. It makes it a bit harder to pass psychic tests, but totally takes the danger of failing them away. Tyranids can't go mech, every unit in it is vulnerable to the Lash. My current army doesn't even have a Tyrant in it, now I have to take one? So I have to take an expensive (albeit effective) HQ choice and spend points to use it's only psychic ability on an otherwise useless power that makes my opponent's psychic tests a little harder, and that's defense agains the Lash?

You could always take a zoanthrope.  Though yeah sitw is pretty useless so I personally wouldn't bother (and don't in my army).  Look at it this way though.  As a tyranid player (Unless your play nidzilla) your base units are already fast enough to quickly overcome being lashed back and if they lash you foreward whats the issue?  They are HELPING you by lashing you foreward.

i play mech tau and my tanks are not afraid,

i play mech death/raven

my tanks, speeder and dreads are not afraid, and my ravenwing bikers cannot be pinned.

 

my wife plays a warrior flying nid army that can't be pinned

lash what?

 

Posted By mughi3 on 08/17/2007 3:14 AM

my wife plays a warrior flying nid army that can't be pinned

lash what?

 

Pining wouldn't be a concern anyway considering flying warriors 5+ save. None of them would be alive to be pinned. She can be lashed out of cover and shot down by even the humble bolter.

As for the lash helping tyranids by moving them forward. Lashing NidZilla into assault range is not helpful at all - NidZilla is weak to assault. Not that I've too much sympathy for NidZilla, even though I play them

They're not T4(5) anymore, they're simply S4 T4.

The Lash has plenty of good uses against Tyranids. You can drag a Gunfex out of cover, a Hive Tyrant or Genestealers out of hiding, or for example push a Gaunt squad away from you to prevent an assault on your shooty squads. If you have 9 Obliterators you can also situationally pull a mob into your plasma guns' rapid fire range so that you can better destroy it. A Daemon Prince of Slaanesh has WS7 I6 so he's capable of taking down a wounded Hive Tyrant down before the nid even gets to attack (most people ignore the 15 point initiative upgrade since they are going for shooty anyway), and naturally the DP's have nothing to fear from 2 attack Carnifexes that need to roll 5's to even hit the DP.

The Chaos armies will be really small at 1500 points but with smart play and the Lash they'll be nearly 50/50 against Godzilla in my opinion.

In most missions you need to deploy 24 inch away from each other. Using 2 daemon Princes with Lash against for example: Guard, you can move (turn 1) 12 inch forward, Lash a group of guard 2 times so that the unit will be about 12 inch closer (thats about 24 inch).. and then you charge with only 1 Prince so you wont overkill the group of guard in CC. the second Prince can hide behind the close combat group and cannot be targetted, because the CC in front of him includes a Level 3 target (Prince 1). So thats CC with Guard in turn 1.

The best thing about the Lashing Princes is that the enemy knows he has to deal with it and that effects his deployment. This way you "control" his deployment. And dont forget that the Princes count for Vpoints... so the can claim targets.......

Posted By ShumaGorath on 08/16/2007 6:30 PM
You could always take a zoanthrope.  Though yeah sitw is pretty useless so I personally wouldn't bother (and don't in my army).  Look at it this way though.  As a tyranid player (Unless your play nidzilla) your base units are already fast enough to quickly overcome being lashed back and if they lash you foreward whats the issue?  They are HELPING you by lashing you foreward.

I thought that only a Tyrant could take SitW?  I'll have to check on that.

So you're saying it's ok if your troops are dragger forward and obliterated one unit at a time?  In my swarm army, I use 4 units of 16 hormagaunts.  It's important that a large number of hormugaunts hits the enemy at the same time.  Staggering them, spreading them out, hitting with understrength units, etc all make the initial charge weaker, and the initial charge is where hormagaunts can actually be useful.  If my opponent can pull them out of cover, move them back, or set them up for easy killing, it can screw up the whole army.  They aren't going to pull you forward and then just let you go, they're going to shoot you or assault you afterwards.  A swarm army like this depends on a big rush of bugs, a trickle doesn't cut it.

And a godzilla army is just as screwed by this.  All those stealers hidden behind that wall of MCs?  Yeah, lets pull these two shooty fexes forward, stomp them in melee, and then shoot the stealers through then nice big hole we have. 

You could, but Zoans can't take SiTW.... Only Tyrants.


But yeah, I am not overly concerned. I have enough assaulting Nid units, that pushing one or two back is not a game breaker. (Well, it might be....)

But what would pushing one or two back per turn do?

What about pushing your synapse back?

Ditto for both of those, only pulling them forward and shooting the crap out of them.

The point is, for them to push two broods back, they must be within 24" of them. That is within range of raveners, hormagants, gargoyles. If they are within 18", that is within range of just about everything.

Yes, it will make me unhappy, and it is a very powerful ability. with 3 broods of stealers, 2 of raveners, 1 garg, 1 Hgaunt, an infiltrating BLord and a flyrant. Removing 2 of those does not make the DP/sorc safe.