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Anyone use the sponsons in serious competitive games?

I mainly use just the battlecannon and the hull laser.

• Hull Heavy Bolter. Brings cost down but no mobile antitank and 1 weapon hit sucks.
• Hull Laser. This is what I use mostly. Mobile AT, and 1 weapon hit doesnt write off the tank.
• Sponson Lascannon. Never tried it. vs Tyranids maybe?
• Sponson Heavy Bolters. Tried it, but ended up using the battle cannon anyway.

IMO the missile is a waste of 10 points. I am not going to pay 10 points to have a 42% of killing one Space Marine once. Now it might be worth it if you know there will be hordes of Ogyrns out there (as if). Though that being said, it will "make it points back" to use the old cliche, as if you had 100 of them in (say) 1,500 points you'd be scary ... :-)

Any comments?

[edit - the last 2 options are in addition to the hull, so the 4 should read as follows :- Hull HB only, Hull LC only, 3 LC, 3 HB. my normal combo is Hull LC only. I've discounted Hull HB. So my question is really 3 LB -or- 3 HC -or- 1 LC.]

If any sponsons are used, they should all be Heavy Bolters, even the hull mounted armament.

hull and sponson HB are the way to go.

sometimes the 3 Russ will get a hull lascannon (no sponsons) if my army lacks AT and for some variety.

HB are better against speeders and spread out 4+ save opponents. (stealers, FW, the such)

Sponson Lascannons? You must have a super special version of the codex! In other words, the only options allowed for Sponsons are HBolters or HFlamers.


I advocate taking the Russ bare with only a single HB, but I agree that if you are going to take Sponsons you take HBolters along with a HBolter in the hull.


The Leman Russ is not a vehicle killer so giving it an expensive Lascannon dilutes its role. You are better off just taking the Lascannon somewhere else in your army.

I love the mobile 3 HB variety, it makes it even better at what it does which is kill infantry. And when your template scatters and they think they are safe you nail them with the 9 HB shots. I also like having all the weapons to be removed before it stops being effective.

Orion

I run a heavily mech list...I perfer the las/hb as I don't have enough lascannons in my line squads.

I usually take only the hull heavy bolter. This is not because the other options are useless, but because they add only marginal utility and they cost points which are better spent on other things.

In almost every situation your Leman Russ will find itself in you will prefer to fire the battlecannon instead of the secondary weapons. The only situation where the secondary weapons are useful is when the battlecannon has been destroyed. I find that this happens infrequently enough that taking sponsons is not worth it.

Of course, if you have 10 points left over and nothing left to spend them on, Heavy Bolter sponsons are a decent way to spend the points.

What about for hosing down speeders? This got brought up on the warmonger forum (by me, actually) and while I run my russes with just a hull heavy bolter, three of them would be pretty effective against speeders. Or would a battle cannon be preferable?

1. Keep it cheap. Heavy bolter hull mount only. Or.

2. Maximum firepower. Take three heavy bolters.You wont get to fire them most of the trime, but one heavy bolter doesnt make a tank, three does. So if you lose the battlecannon you are still potent, and it doesnt cost much. From time to time the nine HB shots might bea betteer choice than the battlecannon, such as if you are moving and the targer is too near friendly troops.

The only time I would advocate hull lascannon is with a Demolisher, which should have a lascannon and two plasma guns. Greatfirepower even when out of 24".

Posted By dumbuket on 10/08/2007 6:24 PM
What about for hosing down speeders? This got brought up on the warmonger forum (by me, actually) and while I run my russes with just a hull heavy bolter, three of them would be pretty effective against speeders. Or would a battle cannon be preferable?

You can play this game all day (what about 'X' type of unit?) but the fact of the matter is that the way a Guard army is designed you should have enough units/weapons spread around that each unit fufills the role it is best at.

Leman Russes are not very effective at firing at speeders either with their Battlecannon or with x3 Heavy Bolters so they shouldn't be doing it. You should be firing at those speeders with other units in your army.

The Russ should be focused on nailing big infantry units (preferebly with a 3+ save) and if those have all been killed at very large vehicles.

 

Yeah, it seems to me that the Chimera has plenty of heavy bolters and similar weapons. Why try to turn a Leman Russ into an expensive Chimera?

Posted By Pariah Press on 10/09/2007 1:05 AM
Yeah, it seems to me that the Chimera has plenty of heavy bolters and similar weapons. Why try to turn a Leman Russ into an expensive Chimera?

because the frist thing yourt going to loose is the battle cannon, it happenes in almost every game i have played against or seen with IG. when your opponant gets that glance 4 or pen 2 the first and foremost thing they are going after is the S8 ap3 pieplate.

without sponson weapons the tank is nuetered and no longer provides you with an effective unit.

with 3 HBs and a stubber you get 12 shots(double that of a normal chimera) at 36" range on a tank that is far more survivable than a chimera.

 

now if your army makup is such you need a little extra anti-tank you could also go with a las cannon,, but it is not normally the cheapest route for most IG armies.

Well considering 1 Leman Russ with Hull HB and sponson HB's costs the same as 1 Leman Russ with a Hull Lascannon and NO sponson weapons.  I preffer the 3 HB version.

Posted By mughi3 on 10/09/2007 2:54 AM

because the frist thing yourt going to loose is the battle cannon, it happenes in almost every game i have played against or seen with IG. when your opponant gets that glance 4 or pen 2 the first and foremost thing they are going after is the S8 ap3 pieplate.

without sponson weapons the tank is nuetered and no longer provides you with an effective unit.

with 3 HBs and a stubber you get 12 shots(double that of a normal chimera) at 36" range on a tank that is far more survivable than a chimera.

 

now if your army makup is such you need a little extra anti-tank you could also go with a las cannon,, but it is not normally the cheapest route for most IG armies.

Every game you've ever played with or against IG?

You need to get some more games in. You are far, far more likely to have the vehicle completely destroyed or not suffer any weapon destroyed result then you are to suffer a weapon destroyed result and that's a simple statistical fact.

Paying 10 points for HB sponsons and 15 points for a Stubber that you won't ever use in most games is simply not a winning strategy.

You are much better off putting those points into a unit that is allowed to fire all its weapons at the same time.

ROFLOL

i regularly play with no less than 4 IG players all with different flavors of IG  one of whom i have been playing with for more than 5 years. and statisitcs be damned because the ones that use russ's tend to loose a weapon(ie battle cannon) more often than they are destroyed outright.

 

they also have the option of choosing to shoot diffent weapons as the need arises. the battle cannon may not always be the best option.

Yakface is right up to a point.

You can have the weapon destroyed either directly or by being immobilised twice. In any case it is a common enough occurance that 10pts is a good investment. I would pass on the heavy stubber though, even 12pts not 15. If you say that the odds of losing the battlecannon is one in six, which is more or less true, then the heavy bolters (15pts total) are worth 1/6 of the price of the rest of the Russ. Which at 140pts means up to 23pts on secondary weapons is 'efficient'. So this could include the heavy stubber but I find 12pts is too much for a small gun that will not often fire.

Secondly you might actually prefer to fire the secondary weapons even with a working battlecannon. Either because of movement, or for the right target. Given well spaced light infantry as the target it may well pay to fire three heavy bolters over the battlecannon. Though light infantry is only a secondary target for a Russ it isn't too unlikely, The battlecannon is a mediocre anti-vehicles weapon. What will a pie plate give you, two hits and two partials is about the norm, unless facing deepstrike, a narrow pass or someone who doesnt know what he is doing.

As stated earlier, if you move so much that scatter is risky firing heavy bolters might profit you more. Saying that you should not be moving a Russ unless something is wrong.
The other time the heavy bolters are superior is if facing small groups of multiwound nids. The battlecannon cannot normally instant kill, and can cause but one wound at most on each monster. So if facing Raveners nine S5 shots is far nastier, the same goes for Tyranid Warriors - if they can be found.

I have three heavy bolter on my Russ because it looks good, but also because its a viable weapon choice. Saying that I have heavy stubbers too, because they are second hand (I replaced the front lascannon) but also because the tank looks so good with them. Though normally I dont pay for them unless I have the points spare.

mughi3, my own experience with Guardian Jetbike shuricannons is that I usually get one hit every two rounds of shooting. However, I would not use that as a basis for disputing the claim that they will hit with half of their shots on average.

On a glance, weapon destroyed is ever so slightly more likely due to the possibility of getting immobilised twice. On a pen, however, you're three times as likely to be destroeyd than lose a weapon (before, again, accounting for the small chance of double immobilisation). On balance, yak is absolutely right.

I go with 3x HBs on my regular Russes, because the same units I'm trying to nail with the ordnance round can also be dealt with via heavy bolters. I also have a few small 'out of order' signs I'll hang on the sponsons when I don't want to actually use them.

Small units of terminators or other 2+ save nasties. Better to use the bolters. Statistically, you will get more wounds. Granted not the best use for the russ, but there are times when you have no other targets, or other times when you just have to drop a nasty squad before they get into your lines, and you have no more units in range or line of sight.

I would never buy the heavy bolters as an insurance policy, as others have pointed out a Weapon Destroyed result is less common than others.

That said, I love having the bolters. Light infantry that's spread out, small squads, 2+ armor, single Monstrous Creatures or Independant characters that can't be squished by S8, light vehicles, etc.

It's 10pts that I can afford to drop, but if they fit in seamlessly, I buy them.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 10/10/2007 7:44 AM
mughi3, my own experience with Guardian Jetbike shuricannons is that I usually get one hit every two rounds of shooting. However, I would not use that as a basis for disputing the claim that they will hit with half of their shots on average.

On a glance, weapon destroyed is ever so slightly more likely due to the possibility of getting immobilised twice. On a pen, however, you're three times as likely to be destroeyd than lose a weapon (before, again, accounting for the small chance of double immobilisation). On balance, yak is absolutely right.

you haven't seen how ourt dice roll

considering your trying to nail AV 14 most of the time you end up getting more glancing hits (especial if they park in terrain for a hull down roll) than pens in my experience. and the cannon is usually first to go.

my wifes army has 21 warriors...battle cannons aren't near as effective  because of no intant death.

Stubber on a Russ? What a complete waste of points.

15 points for three HBs = Good economy.
12 points for 1 Stubber = Bad economy.

Doesn't take a genious to see the problem there.

BYE

its a points filler

12 points for  more for 3 more shots at the same range-12 shots with IG sooting VS 9=better

12 shots are better than 9 is not an argument, it's a tautology.

As far as it being a points filler... well... three stubbers on three Russes is 36 points. I can think of many better uses for 36 points. Try putting Stubbers on vehicles where they'll get used, like Chimersa and Exterminators. Not on something with a Battlecannon, and especially not when it costs almost as much as three heavy bolters.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/13/2007 9:58 AM
12 shots are better than 9 is not an argument, it's a tautology.

As far as it being a points filler... well... three stubbers on three Russes is 36 points. I can think of many better uses for 36 points. Try putting Stubbers on vehicles where they'll get used, like Chimersa and Exterminators. Not on something with a Battlecannon, and especially not when it costs almost as much as three heavy bolters.

BYE

That's the answer really. If you want to spend the points on Heavy Bolter sponsons and a Pintle Heavy Stubber... why not just buy a Leman Russ Exterminator in the first place?

Because you don't play Space Wolves?

What's that got to do with anything?

BYE

The reason why you spend the points to put three heavy bolters on your russ is because a) they look cool and b) you can wipe the smirk off your opponent's face when he knocks the battle cannon off.

I don't however think you really need a Heavy Stubber on there too.

I definitely use the 3HB pattern on my Demolishers because it is great for COD games and the short range of the Demolisher makes it necessary.

As far as I can see regular Leman Russ are long range units for the most part who excel at targeting groups of MEQs that are shooting back at you.  But the other targets I find myself trading fire with frequently are the enemy heavies like Hammerheads, Tyranid MC's, Land Raiders and Monoliths.  As a guard player it is nice to have that Lascannon to deal with these harder targets.

That's why I like the Lascannon.  I bring Hellhounds to deal with the lighter infantry.

The heavy stubber is an absurdity, simple as that.

Samwise, if you want lascannons, why not just spam them on your infantry? You should be able to get more than enough that way.