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I'm only part way through this book, and already I'm disappointed by Dan Abnetts complete lack of regard for the basics of the characters he's writing about!!!!

He writes at one point that a SM is given to fear?!?!? and then goes on to detail how one Marine was hit with a scythe by a chaos cultist farmer (no mention of poisons, etc) and then bleed from his wounds for three weeks?!?!?

Dan Abnett, has reduced the Space Marines down to Imperial guard status to move his stories through WTF!

I hate when writers bend the fluff, does GW vet this crap?

Anyone else read this book? what were your thoughts?

Apparently a lot of the readers (on the BL forum) were a bit dazed and confused at the mid-point, but ended up really liking the book. Note though that a lot of the people over there are t**d farmers, but a lot have valid opinions too.

Dan knows his fluff, but also bends it. As for the bit about the Chaos scythe (and I haven't read the book), it's pretty much implied from that that the weapon must be tainted. Not even a normal guardsman (without anemia or whatever) would bleed for 3wks. Duh!

A lot of people were pretty critical of Brotherhood of the Snake. There seems to be a consensus that it's uncharacteristically bad for a Dan Abnett novel. In one of his books, Abnett writes a forward in which he talks about how he never really "got space marines" and that was one reason he had never written a novel about them. He admits he got over it and his Horus Heresy novel is proof enough of that. However, it is apparent in Brother Hood of the Snake just how much of a hill Abnett had to climb to be able to write about Space Marines.

Sorry about the heavy editting, it's way too early to be posting...

I've only read the first Horus Heresy novel, but it seemed like the most interesting part was that it wasn so different from the 'modern' Imperium (of circa 40,000). Sure, the characters were Space Marines, but those of that era were quite different fromt he more modern one.

I've continued to read the book, and the more I read the more I realise that Dan has tried to instil too much humanity into something which isn't really human at all....this is one of the failings of the Space Wolf books, and it takes so much away than it actually gives!

Writing about Space Marines has to be hard, they don't love, they feel no fear, they are ready to die for the Emporer and are basically killing machines! It would be hard for the readers to sympathise with the characters....I appreciate this, but unfortunately, thats the Marines!

In modern film, the character that comes closest to what I'd imagine a Space Marines personality to be like is the Terminator. I think Darth Vader would be a good basis for a Chaos Marine.....in both cases, very little passion, just an unswerving need to fulfil ones duty!

Dan, if ever you should read this, next time you know where to go! Use those templates and steer clear of Buffy the Vampire slayer and Angel!

Have you guys read the extract from "Legion" at the BL site? It's good.

Delephont wrote:I've continued to read the book, and the more I read the more I realise that Dan has tried to instil too much humanity into something which isn't really human at all....this is one of the failings of the Space Wolf books, and it takes so much away than it actually gives!

Writing about Space Marines has to be hard, they don't love, they feel no fear, they are ready to die for the Emporer and are basically killing machines! It would be hard for the readers to sympathise with the characters....I appreciate this, but unfortunately, thats the Marines!

1) Writing Space Marines is very hard, I agree.

2) But they are human. They are genetically enhanced, indoctrinated warriors, but they are human, with much of what that entails.

3) The trick is finding the balance, and GW hasn't been very clear or consistent. I've made dozens and dozens are well-reasoned assumptions (many based on non-GW fiction regarding human genetic alteration, cults, etc), and it's a real challenge. If you are going to write a story, you have to build sympathy and bridge the gap between the reader and the characters.

I thought Brotherhood was a good book...the age of the some of the short stories shows, but I think he balanced the characters pretty well. If they were just meant to be killing machines, then I imagine technology would have allowed MACHINES to do it. But they chose humans, altered, modified, brainwashed, perfected, etc. Some Chapters probably are automatons, and some are probably artists.

The reason GW has a 1000 Chapters is that it allows the hobbyists some leeway in deciding what "their" Space Marines are.

So quit trying to shrink the box to what YOU think it is.

Delephont I like your comparison with star wars. It really fits. Imo the space marines are like darth vader in the original trilogy: emotionless and cold. and chaos is like him in the 3 movie in the prequel: more conflicted and very emotional.
God I hated revenge of the sith.

snorkle wrote:Delephont I like your comparison with star wars. It really fits. Imo the space marines are like darth vader in the original trilogy: emotionless and cold. and chaos is like him in the 3 movie in the prequel: more conflicted and very emotional.
God I hated revenge of the sith.

Wasn't the entire point of the Horus Heresy that they AREN'T emotionless and cold???

I saw this at the store the other day, but I decided to wait until I read Descent of Angels.

Was there a love story subplot, as the title suggests?

dienekes96 wrote:
The reason GW has a 1000 Chapters is that it allows the hobbyists some leeway in deciding what "their" Space Marines are.

So quit trying to shrink the box to what YOU think it is.

I haven't quoted your whole post, because the majority of it I agree with. Its the last part that gets me a little flushed.

Who makes the "box"? If GW says, "And they shall know no fear".....I'll say, ok! If GW says that "Marines bodies are made to withstand awesome amounts of damage, and their blood will clot super fast to aid healing"....I'll say, ok. If GW states that SM are 3m tall...again, whatever you say!

So who's creating the box? If Dan Abnett says, "well, these Marines are really scared"....I'll say, hold on, the company you work for has stated something else.....if Dan A then says "These SM bleed out for weeks on end"....what, but...GW...what?!?

So before you go accusing me of shrinking ideals into boxes, why not think about who created the box in the first place!

I've got copies of Codexs, and WH40K rule books, that all state..."....Space Marines are super human, in fact, they're nolonger human at all"

So please think before you post, and start attacking people.

Brotherhood of the Snake is, I belive, pretty much just a collection of connected short stories that Abnett wrote for Inferno magazine a few years back. Some of the material on the Iron Snakes' practices is interesting, but the overall structure of the book suffers due to the disconnected and episidic nature of the story. One of Abnett's worst, in my opnion.

Final analysis: Don't bother.

@dienekes96 in Hindsight you're right my post was rather illogical.

Delephont wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:


if Dan A then says "These SM bleed out for weeks on end"....what, but...GW...what?!?

Do you not get that the scythe must have been tainted?

Theres a difference between READING a story and WRITING a story.....

If the scythe was tainted, then it would have been but a couple of words to illustrate the fact, he didn't...so in READING the book, no it wasn't obvious the scythe was tainted.

Reading between the lines and "adding" to a story to make it "fit" is just the activity of fan boi readers trying to cover up bad research and writing on the writers part!

Taken to its ultimate conclusion, why doesn't Dan Abnett release a book with 400 empty pages, then the fan base can write its own Space Marine book.

That's ludicrous. Anyone with any knowledge of space marines and the corrupting power of chaos is supposed to work it out. It doesn't another character (eg a marine apothecary or whatever) to come along and say "hey guy, you are bleeding quite a bit. That scythe must have been the corrupt!". It's sometimes what isn't wrtiien, rather than what is 9like how a bad joke needs to be explained, or when an author has to have some narration where there shouldn't be any).

From reading the horus heresy series I've come the conclusion that SM are superHUMAN warriors. It's not that they don't feel pain, fear etc. but that they have been trained to cope with the feelings. Sometimes this means they might as well not have them but I think that they are still locked up in there somewhere. The rules such as 'they shall know no fear' are basically the table top effects of this training, not a literal translation from fluff to rules. The rule isn't that they are 'fearless' - that's something different, it's to represent thier superior training. The games are also aimed in some part at the kids, many of whom are sued to the films and getting stuck in rather than readin the background stuff and the naming of the rules goes with this to ensure the younger players get the right impression. 'And they shall ignore their fear' doesn't quite have the same ring to it.....

Delephont wrote:I've continued to read the book, and the more I read the more I realise that Dan has tried to instil too much humanity into something which isn't really human at all....this is one of the failings of the Space Wolf books, and it takes so much away than it actually gives!

Writing about Space Marines has to be hard, they don't love, they feel no fear, they are ready to die for the Emporer and are basically killing machines! It would be hard for the readers to sympathise with the characters....I appreciate this, but unfortunately, thats the Marines!

In modern film, the character that comes closest to what I'd imagine a Space Marines personality to be like is the Terminator. I think Darth Vader would be a good basis for a Chaos Marine.....in both cases, very little passion, just an unswerving need to fulfil ones duty!

In all fairness, if the marines were as in control of themselves as you say, then they wouldn't have had been able to have been corrupted by Chaos in the first place. Even the old fluff talks of jealousies and other weaknesses of character that are continually exploited. Remember, it was Darth Vader's passion that caused him to be turned to the dark side.

Well, if you guys liked the book, then thats fine....I didn't and wanted to see if I was alone in thinking that way.

Apparently I am....so more power to Dan Abnett.

I didn't love the book. But it was still nice. I also see it as a series of connected short stories. The fluff about the snakes is really cool. Its not often you see loyal marines that are so competative in their own chapter, cept perhaps the space wolves and iron hands.

Granted its probably Dan's weakest book, but so what? Its still light years ahead of goto and is hardly unreadable. I think that for a writer like Dan marines are probably really boring to write about. The common view of loyalists (currently being debunked in the heresy books) is that they are all dogmatic terminators that are nigh invulerable. And when thats the benchmark how fun/easy is it to write a good book about them when so many are out there?

I totally agree with covenant that marines do feel a lot of human emotions/reactions and they're trained to deal with them. Though part of marines flaws in my mind is that they have never really been just human being inducted at 9-12. When they experience something they haven't been trained for the have no life experience to draw upon. I find it interesting that the quote, "marines fear no evil because we are fear incarnate" was attributed to Konrad Curze. And while marines may still be human they can't even remember when they were only human. This seems in most cases to breed comtempt and even loathing for the very people they were created to defend.

And to be fair virtually nothing in the 40k fluff matchs up everywhere its written. And while it may seem like rationalization it seems appropriate that in an age where knowledge is feared that there is a lack on consistantcy. This is often a beef with many readers and you should stop reading BL if its such a problem since it won't be going away no matter how good the author.

The Armaggedon fluf refers to Logan Grimnar going off on one when the Inquisition wipes out all the humans that they had just protected. It is a fine balance, but as long as most marines don't have a "sharing a moment" with the enemy then it shouldn't be too hard.

Delephont wrote:Well, if you guys liked the book, then thats fine....I didn't and wanted to see if I was alone in thinking that way.

Apparently I am....so more power to Dan Abnett.

As I said previously, I haven't read the book, though I do find some of Abnett's stuff unbearably tedious (and some of it is awesome). My one issue was with the fact that you specified the bleeding marine as a fluff error.

i will read it as i rememebr his short stories in inferno and i liked those. Is it out in paper back yet?? Also why was it released in hardback a hile ago?? can somebody explain what the point of that was??

I'd guess that the increasing amount of Dan's work being released in hard cover first is due to the fact that he's arguably the most prolific BL writer and BL has decided they can get more money out of his novels by realeasing them in hard cover first.

I've only read a couple of Dan's inferno stories but enjoyed those I did read.

I also think that you've hit the nail on the head Beef about Delephont's posts about this novel and the wolf books. While the dour, stoic and unemotional monastic nature of marines is probably prevalent, not every chapter is like this. The wolves of fenris are one case and there are others. Not really a surprise in a time line which includes a thousand chapters.

I don't have a problem with you disliking the book Delephont. I just think your view of space marines is very narrow. Despite their status, armour and faith they can still die like you and me; however infrequent it is. Despite the miracle clotting some wounds can kill anyone. I don't know if you've read the heresy books, but a big factor in horus's fall was his wounding.

The fact is none of this fluff is written in stone, and there are always exceptions in a universe as wide as that of the 41st millenium. Just because most marines wouldn't love, fear and will die at the drop of a hat. Thats a serious over simplification. That might be true for the black templars, but even a chapter as pius as the dark angels have a serious secret they'd defend above nearly everything else. Wouldn't the blood angels, imperial fists and white scars who defended terra have a serious fear about what would happen should they fail defending the emperor? That doesn't mean they would freeze, just that they realize the wider implications of the battle.

If marines don't feel fear at all, then how can they be fear incarnate? Fear is an abstract concept so how can one understand what they haven't experienced? I don't really understand how you can want every piece of marine fiction to be the same one dimensional super hero legend.

WarsmithDave wrote:I'd guess that the increasing amount of Dan's work being released in hard cover first is due to the fact that he's arguably the most prolific BL writer and BL has decided they can get more money out of his novels by realeasing them in hard cover first.

I've only read a couple of Dan's inferno stories but enjoyed those I did read.

I also think that you've hit the nail on the head Beef about Delephont's posts about this novel and the wolf books. While the dour, stoic and unemotional monastic nature of marines is probably prevalent, not every chapter is like this. The wolves of fenris are one case and there are others. Not really a surprise in a time line which includes a thousand chapters.

I don't have a problem with you disliking the book Delephont. I just think your view of space marines is very narrow. Despite their status, armour and faith they can still die like you and me; however infrequent it is. Despite the miracle clotting some wounds can kill anyone. I don't know if you've read the heresy books, but a big factor in horus's fall was his wounding.

The fact is none of this fluff is written in stone, and there are always exceptions in a universe as wide as that of the 41st millenium. Just because most marines wouldn't love, fear and will die at the drop of a hat. Thats a serious over simplification. That might be true for the black templars, but even a chapter as pius as the dark angels have a serious secret they'd defend above nearly everything else. Wouldn't the blood angels, imperial fists and white scars who defended terra have a serious fear about what would happen should they fail defending the emperor? That doesn't mean they would freeze, just that they realize the wider implications of the battle.

If marines don't feel fear at all, then how can they be fear incarnate? Fear is an abstract concept so how can one understand what they haven't experienced? I don't really understand how you can want every piece of marine fiction to be the same one dimensional super hero legend.

First up, sorry to quote your whole post. You've mentioned alot of points, and they're all valid, and in truth I understand your point. I understand that my viewpoint may seem very narrow. and in the context of your argument, I would agree......theres only one problem, there has never been a story (that I know of) that has covered the Space Marines in this light! Yes, there have been bit roles, where its generally easy to portray a stoic, unemotional character, but never as a complete focus.

I take on board your points about the differences between chapters, and I also see (now) that there is some "worth" in showing Marines in a light that the average Imperial citizen may never see! That the Marines are, in Dan Abnetts writing, little better than Imperial Guard, in terms of thinking is an interesting twist, and suggests that even in the WH40K universe man is still submerged in propoganda.....Dan Abnett certainly suggests that the SM are more than human, but certainly not superior to humans.

I may have done the book an injustice, and been too critical...rather than enjoying the book for what it is, I may have derided the book for what it wasn't in my mind....and perhaps it was never mean't to be what I imagined it should be!

Its never fun to read a book with expectations that come up short. I've bought every BL 40k novel since they started publishing (yes even all of goto's) so the space wolf series are the only other books I've read that attempt to put a more human face on marines.

Of course marines aren't better than humans. In the Imperium they live and fight under constant scrutiny from the high lords and the ordos. The heresy may have been 10000 years ago, but to some it was just yesterday. All that required hypnotic conditioning isn't for fun. In fact there is apparantly a small tiny and long forgotten inquisitional sect that formulates poisons and weapons to specifically kill and disable marines should another heresy arise.

I enjoyed the book for the same reason I enjoy the Ciaphas Caine series I think. Because its a refreshing (though not necessarily better) take on what is supposed to be cannon to most imperial citizens. Gaunt is really cool. But there is just something about a commissar who protects his own hide, is deep down a coward and who bangs a little blonde inquisitor. Very funny books if you haven't read them.

The fluff about the Snake's being chosen for a mission by squad is very neat as is sending one brother down to a planet as his final test. The notables had a very Spartan feel to them. I did find that the bouncing from battle zone to battle zone each chapter was a bit quick, a bit like the first Gaunt book. The bit with the unit showing up for the governor's succession was very funny. Marines totally out of their element.

yeah!

King: feel free to mingle!
Marine: What doesn 'mingle?' mean?
*marines stand still for the rest of the party*

priceless! XD

Zombies!

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