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I fought a Blood Angels player today, one on one 5k apocalypse game. I asked how many strategic assets he wanted, mentioned that in the book it says one per player on the side with the most players - but I've seen 3k apoc games with 3 assets per side, surely 5k warranted more? At least 2? So he agreed, and thus:

Blood Angels: Vortex Grenade, Strategic Redeployment

Emperor's Children: Careful Planning, Flank March

After the start of the game, I got a lot of flak for combining the two, and my opponent regarded my desire for more than 1 asset suspiciously. Was I being too... conniving, asking for more than 1? He was also slightly upset that I brought a baneblade, and he had next to no weapons that could hurt it. I chalk that more to army choice than unfair advantage, but what do you all think?

Anyway, items of note:

BA: Mephiston, Dante, Corbulo all present along with a Chaplain and his death company, 2 honor guards, 1 veteran assault squad, and over 25 terminators.

EC: Baneblade, that's all I had special really.

The game ended with a sweeping victory for the Emperor's Children. Driving in the back behind his lines with marines in rhinos, followed by summoning daemons tied up and pinned down a large part of his force, and the baneblade, supported by a vindicator, drove on the side and annihilated the entire right flank while terminators and obliterators dropped on the left and took down 2 dreadnoughts and 20 assault marines.

Another sneaky rear-action by two chaos lords failed utterly. First turn: one rolled a 1, one rolled a 4 but didn't kill many. Then Mephiston came in, and on my one chance to insta-kill him with a Blissgiver, BOTH chaos lords rolled 1's for their daemon weapons, and were executed. He then flew across to force weapon-smite my Keeper of Secrets and finish off a squad of chaos marines before getting caught in the blast of a Baneblade cannon.

Great game! Forgot to take pictures ><

kinda of Unfair but also Kinda Just Army List ....He did have stuff to take it out though DS termies behind it with Assulat cannons ....they could pop it .....I watched the game wasnt horriable....But I wouldnt Felid it un less he had stuff that could take it out ....just to be nice ...but he did indeed have some stuff......Example...I had my Tank Army all my Russ's and such Playing in the league friend Andy had his Iron Warriors They all but 2 squads of obilters had only Heavy bolters and Auto cannons
Sounds Weird But i let him tweak his List....cause it would be a Turkey shoot so to say and in the End we had a Draw ....I rather have fun then Kick some ones ass But yall were having fun it was no comp. but he should have Planned better.......he know your where taking it right ??? i would have let him tweak it a lil

He saw me with it, but he misheard what I said. When I said "let's play apocalypse" he said he didn't have any superheavies. I said you don't need superheavies to play apoc, just 3000+. He thought I said "no superheavies". Either way, I figured in 5000 points one would bring the firepower to handle those kind of things, and even if not, he had the option to keep assault squads in strategic reserve, come on behind the baneblade and plant meltabombs on it with one of the 4 or 5 jump pack squads he had. Keeping things in reserve can be a very, very good thing.

And I didn't realize he didn't have any guns. If he'd asked "can I change my list up to include some guns" I'd have been shocked they weren't already there, but I'd have let him.

just that I get that right...he played "nazi vampires from outer space" (aka Blood Angels) which are basically Space Marines who kick even more butt in CC. but how exactly does one build a 5000 point marine list without lascannons and stuff. I mean, how many points does that guy have?

and btw.: altough flank march is really hard, it's still apocalypse. if he's whining because he lost then he didn't get it....

Terminators. Lots and lots of terminators.

And assault marines. Lots and lots of assault marines.

20 assault marines
10 veteran assault marines
10(+?) death company with jump packs and chaplain
10 Veteran assault marines in aLR Crusader with Corbulo
Dante with jump pack honor guard
Mephiston with jump pack honor guard
Terminator Librarian with 8? terminators
6-man terminator squad
5-man terminator assault squad in drop pod
5-man terminator assault squad in drop pod
10-man tac in rhino
10-man tac in rhino
10-man tac, heavy bolter/plasma
Predator Annihilator
Baal Predator
Dreadnought in drop pod
Furioso Dreadnought in drop pod

And that's about it, I believe.

Mine:
Lord w/ Mark of Slaanesh, Daemon weapon
Lord w/ MoS, DW
Lord w/ MoS, termie armour, DW
Lord w/ MoS, DW
Lucius the Eternal
Sorceror w/ MoS, Lash of Submission
Daemon Prince, MoS, Wings, Lash of Submission
Greater Daemon
24 lesser daemons
2x 10-man tac with hvy bolter/plas, champ, undivided
2x 10-man tac with melta,flamer, champ w/ fist, undivided. in rhinos
2x 6 noisemarines w/ blastmaster, 2 sonic blasters, champ
10 terminators, MoS, Various weapons, 8 aspiring champs
3 Obliterators
10 Havocs, MoCU, 4 lascannons, champ w/ combi-plas
Vindicator w/ possession
Baneblade w/ extra sponsons
Defiler

He had the tools to take them out, But I think he got too eager. He deployed second, and he knew the baneblade was in reserves. I think he just planned on being in combat by the time it arrived.

then just don't use flank march anymore.

I think it'll be hard to do that. I believe it's one of the single most useful assets in the entire list. Orbital Bombardment looks tasty at first, but you realize its limitations the higher up in points you get, same with Vortex Grenade. Strategic Redeployment looks good at first but if the enemy closes with you, you won't be able to use it and it's really only great on ridiculously large boards.

Blind Barrage can hurt you just as much, Camoflauge is nice but only if they've got lots of guns, Ambush just counters Flank March and the majority of the rest of them just aren't that spectacular.

However, I have seen it said in many circles that "man, everyone uses the same assets every time", and I believe that's a good point. Settling on the same 2 or 3 every game would get boring, so next game I'll try to mix it up a bit.

Any question regarding fairness and flank march is not going to go your way. It is simply far too powerful, especially when mixed with other assets like Careful planning.


Essentially, you got to bring roughly 1/4 of your army behind his lines before he got to roll a die. I mean, he could have played better and deployed better and built a better list, but there is next to nothing that can be done about flank march on turn 1.

Also, you built an apocolypse army, he built a 5000pt army. It's a subtle difference, but given those lists and assets you're going to win the game 9 times out of 10.

if i think my opponent is gonna take flank march (which is the ever popular one) using either the disrupter beacon or the ambush assets always cause a giggle

One guy flank marched his marine company when i had both those assets out... result...

75% casulties and half the stuff so out of position it couldn't take a reasonable part in the game

I played a 3500 pt APOC game with my nids against necrons. The crons set up deep in his deployment zone. I flank marched my nids up his backside. He gave up after my openning turn. Flank march was way too strong in that setting. I'm not going to use it again for a while.

That's funny, the biggest game of apocalypse I've yet played my opponent spaced Imperial guardsmen 2" apart all the way around his deployment zone, meaning the only units I could enter play with on his edge were those mounted in vehicles. Also, if you suspect flank march a lot of units can deploy further from the edges. If further from the edges isn't possible, choose a couple and spread them out like the aforementioned guard.

If he can't legally set foot on the board, he can't come in.

Though like Bignutter said - me using flank march repeatedly would result eventually in my opponents using the same two assets in order to counter it, making for very predictable games.

Spellbound wrote:Lord w/ Mark of Slaanesh, Daemon weapon
Lord w/ MoS, DW
Lord w/ MoS, termie armour, DW
Lord w/ MoS, DW
Lucius the Eternal

*high fives for the total awesomeness of that many demon weapons*

On Flank March, it's pretty damn busted, as noted. In our games we've nerfed it so far down that while you can still do some evil things with it, it no longer wins games by itself.

In total other news, my little brother played in an APOC tournament (1500 points, restricted to 1 codex) this weekend. He tied for first place using Grey Knights

- Salvage

What's your nerf look like? I might propose it to my group to allow me to still use it without getting glares.

One nerf I've fooled around with is that you get one turn of flank march, and you can only flank 1/4 of your total army, and it cannot be combined with careful planning and/or superheavies.

No combining with careful planning sounds like a good enough balance to me. I don't really bring more than 1/4 my army anyway.

most obvious thing to do with flankmarch is to deploy expecting your opponent to use it- calling it predictible and game breaking is too simple really- finding a solution is much more fun

The aforementioned assets work well- very very well in fact (we had another game at the store recently where a guy used ambush and scared his opponent out of flank marching at all)

Other nice little tactics- the blocking off your deployment with a line of men is funny, as is taking strategic redeployment and moving your WHOLE ARMY to better positions having blocked off flank marching for the first 2-3 turns

Biggest and most important is to use a table big enough so that you can deploy far enough away from the edges to not have any problems from them in the first place

Final one- a nerf if it is really getting out of hand around you is either no super heavies and/or no charging when you do it

I wouldn't say that he didn't have anything that could the baneblade: I've seen death company take apart of squadron of warhounds before. It was a huge death company, but still, the point stands. However, if he had a huge deal with it before the game, and made that clear, in the spirit of apocalypse I probably would have chosen different assets, if not a different army list.

Polonius wrote:One nerf I've fooled around with is that you get one turn of flank march, and you can only flank 1/4 of your total army, and it cannot be combined with careful planning and/or superheavies.

That's a pretty good one, and fairly simple too.

Our last nerf was something like:

Flank march gives you 6 'points' to distribute, and units with points can flank march in. Troops & Fast Attak are 1 point, Elites & HQ are 2 points, Heavy are 3 points. Superheavies cannot flank march.

Still not unpowerful - you send in 6 squads of terminators or 180 orks and that's a world of hurt. But mostly lets a player get some über-killers into the backfield and tear some stuff up - 3 HQs, in most cases. Doesn't ruin the game like FM does as is.

And each side always has a disruptor in our games, so flank marchers are possibly getting redirected anyway. While we're on disruptor, we've tried a few nerfs to that one too, and the next nerf will be 24" radius of 4+ denial. APOC I had it at 48" of 4+ (ridiculous), APOC II had it at 48" of 5+ (worked, but still too big of an area).

- Salvage

Flank march is so easy to defend. The disruption beacon is the best all around choice. Combine that with Ambush and you really have it locked down. Most people also do take Strategic Redeployment and that works sometimes. But overall, planning for Flank March requires the Beacon. It works well enough.

Capt K

The Flank March/Careful Planning combo is probably the main reason why evenly matched (by points) armies should only be allowed a single strategem in the first place.

It makes zero sense to me why a 3-player, 3000 a side apocalypse game should get 3 assets while 5, 10, 15000+ games with one player a side get only one.

It makes sense because some of the strategems, when used in conjunction by the same player, are brutally overpowered. (As demonstrated above.)

Seriously, though, strategems aren't what makes Apocalypse. They are just a little bit of crunchy sprinkle on the top of the cake. What makes Apocalypse is the ability to field 8 HQ's and a Superheavy in one list. Ork armies fielding an allied CSM raptor squads led by an AC bonded the the 666 point Keeper of Secrets makes Apocalypse. 11 tooled Genestealers led by a joined SM Chaplain riding to battle in that ridiculous Ork superheavy that combines Land Raider with Baneblade makes Apocalypse.

Multiple strategems for a single player only makes sense to help re-balance a game where one player is at a points disadvantage; that's why the rule is written that way. (Though, in my opinion, one extra strategem for ever 250 point difference isn't enough...it should be more by percentage than an absolute point amount.)

The silly thing with Flank March is that it's existance (as written) pretty much requires you to take a foil (Disruptor etc) when you don't know if your opponant will take it or not. When you are rocking 3-4 Assets, cool, take something to screw FM. If you are taking 1-2, one of those WILL be something to screw FM, which becomes useless if your opponant takes something else.

Honestly, most games I would start right off the bat saying "Hey, want to disallow/castrate flank march?" A gentleman's agreement to use different assets can really make for more interested games.

I think, as a general rule, any option that is so good that all planning for a game revolves around either using that option or shutting it down is a bit overpowered.

Yes, ambush hurts it (unless they're FMin'g landraiders), and the D-Beacon can be game chaning in it's own right, both are only useful as counters to FM. In larger games with multiple assets, sure, there's no reason not to slide Ambush in there. But when comparing FM to the other assets, it is the best option for nearly any army, and vastly superior to any other options. That to make makes it broken.

Apocolypse isn't RTT style 40k. Nobody is stuck whining about a bad rule, you simply change it. I don't mind when my buddy uses it, because I tend to win anyway. But when used in potent combination, FM can turn the game from a tactically interesting slugfest to a foregone conclusion, and nobody likes to play boring 4 hour games.

Don't get me wrong: FM is a great ability, and one that can be used to great effect and makes for interesting games. I'd never ban it, but keeping it's use reasonable is key.

Without it, it seems to me that the entire game is pretty much decided by one dice roll though, the roll for first turn. My suggestion to get rid of the first turn advantage by adopting a detachments and initiative system similar to epic's (but simplified a lot to keep it fast) has been ignored by my group unfortunately. I dunno. I suppose I'm one of those guys who'd rather play a properly balanced game than the effort of a big narrative mega battle. If I want detailed narrative, I'll write it, or play an RPG.

Apocalypse doesn't decide first turn by a dice roll - each side bids a time limit of how long they think it'll take to set up. The lowest bid deploys first and goes first.

Normal 40k is HARDLY decided by who goes first.

Yeah I remembered that after I posted this, a bit of a "D'oh!" moment.
But it's the same deal. It's still down to who gets first turn.
So the army with a bunch of tanks is going to win the bid over an ork infantry horde any day, and the massive amount of firepower on the table means that he who shoots first, wins.
First turn has an effect on 40k that varies with terrain set ups and army match ups. Sometimes it's very important, other times less so. In apocolypse I think it's pretty obvious that it is insanely important. Especially because it seems to be "Faction X Vs. The Imperium" for every game, which inevitably means you are going to be facing guard armour and indirect fire backed up by marine counter assualt. Many armies are going to struggle to do much against that without strategems like flank march.

Ork horde takes Scheduled Bombardment and Camoflauge.

Whole army gets a 5+ or better save, bombardments come down on the likely [and this is easy to see] places for many tanks like basilisks to be.

And since they know they're going second, they can prepare for it in their deployment. Anything really vital can be put into reserves so it doesn't get shot.

And you're right, flank march really helps armies like that. Seems the popular consensus is that it's broken, though.

I think apocolypse is just generally (and unashamedly) broken anyway though. It just seems to be about who goes the furthest.

Goes the furthest?