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Here's another 1850 Imperial Guard list up for criticism. I'd like to know what you think of it, and how it compares to the list I posted earlier. Thanks.

DOCTRINES: Veterans, Drop Troops, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, Special Weapons Squads

HQ=246

Junior Officer Command Squad
-iron discipline
-standard bearer
-macharian cross
=76

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor Lord
-emperor's tarot
-psychic hood
=80

Special Weapons Squad
-demo charge
=45

Special Weapons Squad
-demo charge
=45

ELITES=225

5 Hardened Veterans
-3 plasma guns
=75

5 Hardened Veterans
-3 plasma guns
=75

5 Hardened Veterans
-3 plasma guns
=75

TROOPS=500

JOCS
-4 meltaguns
=80
Infantry Squad
-lascannon
=85
Infantry Squad
-lascannon
=85
==250

JOCS
-4 meltaguns
=80
Infantry Squad
-lascannon
=85
Infantry Squad
-lascannon
=85
==250

FAST ATTACK=369

Hellhound
-extra armour
-smoke
=123

Hellhound
-extra armour
-smoke
=123

Hellhound
-extra armour
-smoke
=123

HEAVY SUPPORT=509

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
-extra armour
-improved comms
-smoke
=183

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
-extra armour
-smoke
=163

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
-extra armour
-smoke
=163

TOTAL POINTS=1849

The army is illegal. Inquisitor needs a Retinue.

You don't need Smoke on the tanks.

You have 40 men at 1850 points. You should have double that.

Your Meltaguns are overkill.

Your squads lack Plasma Guns.

Your CHQ lacks Ld9.

BYE

Great, efficient feedback. Would you mind taking a look at the other Guard army I recently posted?

drop the meltaguns from the junior command, and then put in a plasmagun or two. make the lascannons, missile launchers and with the extra points from meltaguns/lascannons and buy more infantry.

also drop the smoke, and you can't have the inquisitor so now you have a whole bunch of points to throw more guardsmen at the enemy

Bastirous666 wrote:drop the meltaguns from the junior command, and then put in a plasmagun or two. make the lascannons, missile launchers and with the extra points from meltaguns/lascannons and buy more infantry.

also drop the smoke, and you can't have the inquisitor so now you have a whole bunch of points to throw more guardsmen at the enemy

if you want to mix lascannons and missile launchers, go ahead, its got a pretty good chance of working. But guard NEED lascannons, its one of their highlights that they can field so many lascannons, it would be counterproductive to lose them

my guard do fine without lascannons. you really don't "need" them that much. if you depend wholly on one weapon to win then that just means you aren't versatile, and/or good at being a general. for guard having more at cheaper is good. missile launchers are good enough at anti tank, and make pulp of marines. for termies use your demolisher, special weapon team w/ demo charge, meltagun, and plasmaguns. there's more than one way to skin a cat as the ld saying goes.

anyway 4 lascannons aren't going to change the ame really. i mean you may get lucky sometimes, but on average they won't win the whole game for you

Hilarious. Lascannons aren't needed by guard.

Where is my effing LR termie assault army when I need it?!

Be serious mate.

The consensus is that I need more infantry. I can see how that would be useful, but I really don't like line squads. Las/plas appears to be the most common setup for them. 95 points seems like a lot for what is essentially one heavy weapon and one special weapon, both firing at BS3 and one having a significant chance of killing its user. Lasguns are horrible and the guardsman profile leaves a lot to be desired for six points, especially if you think all basic troops should be weighed against the new Orks. Anyway, I'll remove (most of) the drop troops and rework the list so that it has more basic troops and less fancy stuff. Once again, please take a look at the other list I posted. I like it a lot and would much rather run it over a list with a swarm of infantry. Thanks.

Ok, here's my second try. I'm still not convinced that las/plas squads are worth their points. The inquisitor and callidus combo seems pretty common, so I'd like to know how it fits into this list.
__________

DOCTRINES: Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline

HQ=56

JOCS
-iron discipline
-standard bearer
=56

ELITES=175

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor
-psychic hood
-emperor's tarot
=55

Callidus Assassin
=120

TROOPS=777

JOCS
-iron discipline
-standard bearer
=56
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
==436

JOCS
-iron discipline
-standard bearer
=56
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
Infantry Squad
-plasma gun
-lascannon
=95
==341

FAST ATTACK=360

Hellhound
-extra armour
=120

Hellhound
-extra armour
=120

Hellhound
-extra armour
=120

HEAVY SUPPORT=480

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
-extra armour
=160

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
-extra armour
=160

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
-extra armour
=160

TOTAL POINTS=1848

If you're truly interested in making the Inquisitor/any assasin thing work, simply play Demonhunters/Witch Hunters and induct Imperial Guard. You can still get your gobs of infantry with your lascannons, plus get the joy of BS 4 plasma guns if you so choose.

Trying to work in 2 different, relatively large HQs at under 2000 points can be a real chore.

But then I couldn't field 3 Leman Russ and 3 Hellhounds. That's the whole point. I want those tanks, plus a good supporting cast. You're definitely right about trying to squeeze a lot into the HQ. I might drop the idea of fielding an inquisitor and an assassin.

Well, las/plas squads in any army are highly questionable.

I'll post a list later (my own) and show you how you can get everything you want.

Bastirous666 wrote:my guard do fine without lascannons. you really don't "need" them that much.

I'm laughing at that notion right along Stelek. Don't need Lascannons?

They're part of the Holy Trinty of Guard weapons - Lascannons, Autocannons and Heavy Bolters.

BYE

So the question becomes, where to get them? Support squads are the most efficient in terms of heavy weapons/point but they have some serious weaknesses. What do you guys think of running three squads of ten Hardened Veterans with 3 plasma guns and a lascannon? Would that be a decent way to increase the body count and support my tanks? I would have to remove some drop troops but the more I think about it, the less I like them.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/208318.page

Give that a looksee. I'll make a armored supported version later.

A version supportive of armour, you mean.

Medic and two plasma guns in jo squads, you can get them from your line squad.

See the ally part for the assissin so that you can redo the list correctly. Lord is required to have in order to have an assassin, and the lord requires a ret. I would just go back over the Daemonhunters codex to get a better understanding of the list.

An inquisitor OR an inquisitor lord is required. I forgot that the lord needs a retinue. Still looking for opinions on 3 X 10 Vets w/ 3 plasma and a lascannon.

Yeah but you can take an Elites Inquisitor and an Assassin, as they're both Elites, and you get 0-1 Allied Elites.

Cheapest Retinue is 18 points - 3 Servo-Skulls.

BYE

Vets with plasma and las are too pricey.

If you want to run a flex config for vets, take a AC and 2 plas.

You need more than the minimum 5 to take the 3rd special weapon, you need 6 guys.

Sorry, my mistake. I like the inquisitor + callidus combo for emperor's tarot, psychic hood and whisper in your year, but you need to pay over 200 points for that. Those abilities look good on paper but are they worth it?

Stelek, I don't see how they're too pricey. Getting 3 plasma gun and 1 lascannon through Last Chancers would cost 130 points, ignoring the cost of the characters. For 140 points, veterans get the same firepower and five more bodies. And they can still deep strike for free.

Last chancers rules, read up on 'em.

I know they rule, I'm not disputing that. You said las plas vets are too pricey, so I used a unit you like to show that vets aren't actually very expensive for what you get. The last chancers have some fantastic rules but that is offset by the cost of the special characters you have to buy. So, 3 X 10 Vets with 3 plasma guns and 1 lascannon. Yea or nea?

No one believes in 10 man vets. You shouldn't either.

The costs aren't the same either.

Vets are to be used as suicide units or a cheap way to get a BS4 Lascannon without having to resort to taking last chancers.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors is dead on. Deep Striking 9 Plasma Guns at BS4 is amazing. End of story.

CK

But infiltrating them is crappy? *scratches head* OK, if you guys say so.

Deep Striking gets them where they need to be. Infiltrating means that your opponent can shoot them before they do anything.

Trust me, DS'ing Vets are a staple of Guard armies.

BYE

The_Whetherman wrote:But infiltrating them is crappy? *scratches head* OK, if you guys say so.

Deep strike means that you will always get the first shot off (as opposed to having your squad shot off the board if you don't go first) and you can also potentially get them closer and/or into places where they couldn't normally infiltrate. You have to remember that since you're playing guard most of your stuff is going to vaporize the moment that something looks at them funny. This is also why people are saying you need more bodies.

Also, as an aside I wouldn't underestimate the flashlights on your regular guys. Sure they suck but if you pour enough of 'em into something it will eventually die.

OK. Drop troops are good, chimeras are overpriced, Veterans shouldn't be taken in squads of 10, smoke isn't necessary, lascannons, autocannons and heavy bolters are the most useful IG heavy weapons, IG tanks aren't really that durable. I think this is the best I can do without resorting to last chancers or line squads. I could remove the chimeras from the Grenadiers and spend those (170) points on 2 Special Weapons squads with a demo charge each, plus give Light Infantry and Chameleoline to all four heavy weapons teams. Or spend the 80 points elsewhere. Anyway, this is my last try for a while. I have to do some studying.
TOTAL POINTS: 1850

HQ=490

JOCS
-4 plasma guns/melta guns
=80

Fire Support Squad
-3 autocannons
=95

Fire Support Squad
-3 autocannons
=95

Anti-tank Support Squad
-3 lascannons
=110

Anti-tank Support Squad
-3 lascannons
=110

ELITES=225

5 Hardened Veterans
-3 plasma guns/melta guns
=75

5 Hardened Veterans
-3 plasma guns/melta guns
=75

5 Hardened Veterans
-3 plasma guns/melta guns
=75

TROOPS=310

5 Grenadiers
-2 plasma gun
-chimera
-multilaser
-heavy bolter
=155

5 Grenadiers
-2 plasma gun
-chimera
-multilaser
-heavy bolter
=155

FAST ATTACK=360

Hellhound
-extra armour
=120

Hellhound
-extra armour
=120

Hellhound
-extra armour
=120

HEAVY SUPPORT=465

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
=155

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
=155

Leman Russ
-heavy bolters
=155