Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't often post on tactica forums, but I've been playing with the IG conscripts for a while, and I want to hear some input from the other veteran gamers out there. I more than look forward to hearing any scrutiny the community here can offer, including how this tactic will fare in 5th ed.

First off, why are conscripts amazing? Let's review their stat line:

str 3 tgh 3 bs 2 ws 2 ld 5 for a total of 4pts per model

Now, it seems pretty obvious why a lot of guard players may take a quick look at these numbers and immediately write conscripts off. Guardsmen are primarily a shooty army that makes up for low strength and HTH capability with massive numbers. Conscripts may fill the massive numbers criteria, but reducing guardsmen BS to 2 looks like it defeats the purpose of having guardsmen in the first place - to shoot stuff. On top of that, their abysmal leadership means that an IG commander may be investing in a squad of fifty troops that marches right off the table at the first sight of something scary, taking two hundred+ points with it.

That being said, there are some massive benefits to using these troops, which I will explain by once again examining their stat line. The kicker is the points cost - 4 points for a guy that comes with a 24 inch range with strength and toughness 3. They may have low WS and BS, but a conscript is essentially the same sack of meat a normal guardsman is for 33 percent less points. Let's say your conscripts end up in HTH with a marine squad (since you will pay against A LOT of marine armies, we will use them as the standard for these calculations). A marine need a 3+ to hit a normal guardsman and another 3+ to wound that same guardsman, who then gets a 5+ save. Now, let's replace that guardsman with a conscript. What does the marine need? A 3+, 3+, then beat a 5+ save. In other words, from the standard marine's perspective a conscript is the same thing as a regular guardsman, except there's a crap-load (about a third) more of them! And from the conscript's perspective, guess what? He needs the same rolls to hit that marine as his regular guardsman counterpart (4+, 5+, beat a 3+ save)!

Now that we've examined the HTH side, we'll look at the shooting side. You pay 33 percent less for a guardsman that hits 33 percent less of the time when shooting...is that so bad? What that means is that so long as you can make up for the -1 BS with 33 percent more shots that you could take with a standard infantry squad of the same points, you've lost nothing in value. And, conveniently enough, you can buy exactly 33 percent more conscripts than guardsmen with the same points. The only issue I can think of is terrain bottlenecking that keeps you from getting the whole squad in lasgun range, but that's going to be a game-by-game issue, and I've rarely had it.

Now, what about that pesky Ld 5? This is where your regulars may make up for their significantly increased cost - they won't run away half as often as unmodified conscripts. But then again, when would a guard unit, especially a conscript platoon, ever use their base leadership for anything? If that same conscript platoon is within a foot of your flag and officer, they get a re-rollable Ld 8 or 9, and they will almost never be outnumbered or below half to modify that. Not good enough? A 50 point independent commissar increases that to ten. Now don't get me wrong - commissars, especially the independent ones, suck. 50 points is a lot for some loser with 2 attacks who can be picked out of a unit in HTH. But think of it this way - for fifty points, you increase the Ld of 50 troops from 5 to 10. That's one point per guy to give them to the highest Ld plateau int he game, and all you have to do is hide that commissar in the very back of the unit behind fifty guys, where he will never be picked out. Don't even give him wargear (except maybe a stormbolter or combiweapon), there's no point.

So let's review. We've learned that conscripts are about on par with guard regulars when it comes to shooting so long as terrain doesn't hinder their ability to bring a third more rifles to bear on a target. Also, we've found that conscripts really shine, surprisingly enough, in HTH. Wait, that can't be right, can it? Conscripts in HTH?

Conscripts have the same stat line as guard in HTH against marines and cost 2 points less per guy. Wow. This doesn't make them unbeatable, however. If you are going up against an opponent who has a lot of WS 3 or WS 5, conscripts lose a lot of their statistical edge. WS 5 leaves you needing a 5+ to hit instead of a 4+, reducing their potential wounds by 16 percent. Even worse, WS 3 opponents will hit you on 3+ as well, making them 33 percent more effective against you in HTH than against regulars. That means that, roughly, conscripts are still about one sixth more cost-effective than regulars in HTH against WS 5 enemies, and about the same as regulars against WS 3 so long as their Ld holds out. So, if you end up playing alot of WS 3 opponents, stick with regulars - it's the same benefit for less risk. Against WS 5, conscripts may still be a safe bet. And since over half the people I play every week wear power armor and have a WS 4 BS 4 statline, I still take conscripts standard in my list as a counter-assault or even, believe it or not, full-out assault unit.

So, how does it work? Let's talk about doctrines. The ones that immediately concern conscripts are close order drill, independent commissars, warrior weapons, and priests.

Close order drill - it's free, and only conscripts and infantry platoons get to use it. Just move your platoon into ranks right before a charge and the entire unit gets +1 initiative and +1 Ld. You won't really need the Ld, since you'll be using an officer's anyway, but 50 In 4 troops charging in get 100 attacks and go simultaneously with marines. This is important, because should the unit you assault have a particularly good round of HTH and wipes out all the models in base with them before you get to attack, you get nothing to throw back at them. If you go at the same time, though, you are guaranteed a full complement of attacks each time.

Independent commissars - they are there for the Ld 10. Thats it. There are three reasons to take them if 1) you don't think you can keep an officer and a flag within 12 inches of the platoon at all times, 2) you don't want to buy a commissar for each command platoon before putting one in the conscript platoon, saving 70+ points, or 3) you don't have the Daemonhunters codex and you haven't read the Grey Knight hero's profile - 61 points for a guy in terminator armor, a free stormbolter and force weapon, three attacks, and you can even give him a psychic power if you want. All that for 11 points more. The drawback? He's only got 1 wound, so he needs to hide in the back of the platoon, terminator armor or not. I usually hide him until the squad gets cut down to less than ten guys, then drop holocaust on anyone that's left in combat, getting some extra wounds on the marines before they finally overcome the unit. If you're going to go out, go out with a bang, eh?

Warrior weapons - I'll give it to you straight. This doctrine almost always sucks. Period. 2 points for an extra attack from a str 3 tgh 3 in 3 guy, and you cut his range in half? For regulars, it's an insane choice. But for conscripts, there may be some logic to it. Even with warrior weapons, a conscript only costs 6 points - the same as a regular. And as we've already discussed, conscripts are about 33 percent better than regulars in HTH thanks to their superior numbers (so long as they are fighting marines). Give them this upgrade, and they are now just as good as regular guardsmen at the same price, but with twice the attacks. You will get twice as many wounds with them now (maybe a little less, since you only get 33 percent more when you charge) for 50 percent more points. It sounds like a bargain to me. I'll come back to this later when I describe how I've seen this unit work in real games.

50 conscripts x 3 attacks each ( on charge) = 150 attacks
150 attacks / 2 (against WS 2-4 enemies) = 75 hits
75 / 3 (tgh 4) = about 25 wounds
25 / 3 (power armor) = about 8 dead marines.

Now those same marines (we'll say 30 of them, actually making them more expensive) throw back:

30 attacks
30x.66 = 20 hits
20x.66 = 13 wounds
13x.66 (5+ armor save)= about 9 dead conscripts

To sum up, the conscripts kill almost half the group of 30 marines, for a total of over 120 points, and lose only 45 points worth of casualties. And thats assuming I couldn't shoot my 50 laspistols into the mess before I charged. If I had, that would be another 2-3 dead marines.

And remember, if you were in close order, all this happens at In 4.

I've fielded the following unit of conscripts for a while now:
50 conscripts (200 pts)
warrior weapons (100 points)
for a total of 300 points.

optional 81 point Grey Knight hero with holocaust

In the same game, I've seen this unit bulldoze through a blood angel command HQ squad, terminator squad, 2 tactical squads, and an 8-man biker squad before finally succumbing to Mephiston, whom my priest killed with a little help from a well-place Grey Knight holocaust.

A few things this squad doesn't perform against, however, I will mention in passing:
HTH-themed tyranids. They are In 5 and they get more attacks than you. They hurt a lot.

Characters with a lot of attacks and high toughness, like chaos lords, marine characters, or dreadnaughts. Basically, watch out for anything that goes before you and/or you need a 6 to wound, that can kill 5 or more guys per turn. Anything else is fair game.

They also get torn apart by flamers, templates, and anti-infantry vehicles like land raider crusaders. I can usually fend off land raiders by backing the unit up with a lot of lascannons or demolisher cannons, but deep-striking terminators with two heavy flamers will toast them FAST. The good news is, most marine players equip weapons for dealing with other marines, so flamers and whirlwinds aren't all as common as assault cannons and lascannons. If you run the platoon behind some armor cover or hide behind terrain and wait for a counter-assault opportunity, you should usually be ok. Just take a basilisk and make sure you knock out any enemy artillery before they put a nice big hole in your conscript platoon.

The disadvantages also include the fact that you need to spend at least 4 doctrine points to get this unit moving: warrior weapons, priests, close order drill, and you need to buy conscripts back, as well. That doesn't leave a lot of room for the rest of your army, and makes this unit the centerpiece of its composition in fact.

Let me know what you think!

Well, I guess the reason why no one runs that unit is it's not legal.

Priests cannot attach to conscripts.

Sorry.

Oh and I just use Gaunt in the back of the conscripts to make the unit fearless tarpit o'doom. I'd never buy warrior weapons because I've never seen anyone kill 50 fearless conscripts in CC before.

You're right, I reread the codex, and priests can only go into stormtrooper, infantry, and armored fist squads. My bad, I've edited the post accordingly. That makes them less effective, but still better than regular guard, am I wrong?

To kill the enemy in CC? It's a pipe dream for guard.

For the points you spend you can get RR, GK, or SOB and you'll 'kill' alot more than you will with warrior guard.

The only unit you spend points on with WW is the conscript platoon, and they kill a lot with that upgrade, and they do it for more than one round of combat like RR, and don't mind getting power-fisted like ogryns. It's 100 points spent, so the question is whether or not another unit (GK, maybe, I'm not sure) can kill 10 marines or so a turn, every turn they charge, for 300 points or less, losing less than 50 points in casualties each round.

Problem is, if you get charges off with IG conscripts...you really need to play better opponents.

Everyone should charge you, honestly.

You're right. I usually screen them with a squad or two of regulars to take the hit so the conscripts always get the charge. But I'll redo the figures to see what heppens when they are charged:

50 x 2 = 100 attacks
100 / 3 = 33 hits
33 / 3 = 11 wounds
11 / 3 = about 4 marines casualties (60 points)

30 x 2 = 60 marines attacks
60 x .66 = 40 hits
40 x .66 = 26 wounds
26 x .66 = 17 casualties (102 points)

So you're right. They can't go toe to toe with marines if they are charged every time. You'd have to screen for them to make them effective.

I've always been able to charge at least half the time with them, but that may be the fault of may opponents.

If you can 'screen' a warrior weapon IG conscript platoon of 50 guys with 2 IG squads...yes, there is something going on here.

You don't tell your opponents guard are T5 with a 2+ save, do you? lol

First off, I did the math wrong. At equal point totals, 50 conscripts with WW only fight 20 marines, which mean 40 attacks.

That's:
40 x .66 = 26 hits
26 x .66 = 18 wounds
18 x .66 = 12 casualties (72 points)

that means that the conscripts only lose by 12 points when they are charged, and win by over 100 when they do charge.

As for screening, why is that so hard? You line up two infantry squads in front of your conscripts in single file. Marines can't walk through one squad to charge another, and they cant shoot one squad to death and charge a different one. There's no option but to take out the squad in front, is there? They charge the infantry squad in front and wipe it out or get tied down in HTH in their turn, then the concripts charge in the next turn.

Kujo, don't take Stelek personally. He's the self-appointed master of everything 40K. If you don't believe that, just ask him.

To be fair, though, do you really disagree with him on this point, C99? That good opponents will not usually let Conscripts get the charge seems like an obvious observation to me.

Sigh. No one asked you to be the Dakka Nazi, Cent. So stop being one.

Kujo, if you can walk T3 5+ save guys across the board in front of your conscripts without them being shot dead--then YOU are the master of all things 40K. Or being shot, assaulted, and then the marines consolidate into your conscripts.

You'd be surprised how many times I've gotten the charge as long as I throw fodder at the marines first. It's not easy, but it's not impossible either. If that's the only thing you think that keeps this from being viable, then we agree to disagree.

Why would you take Warrior Weapons? Spending points on Guardsmen to increase their HTH ability doesn't make them better in HTH, it makes them worth more points when they get slaughtered in HTH.

You know what works for Conscripts? Close Order Drill. You know why? Initiative 4.

Not to mention that you take Warrior Weapons and you're stuck giving it to everyone in your army. This is BAD!

BYE

Ugh. Please, no more...I give.

IG win at CC vs marines, ok?

tegeus-Cromis wrote:To be fair, though, do you really disagree with him on this point, C99? That good opponents will not usually let Conscripts get the charge seems like an obvious observation to me.

Given the situation as he describes it...yeah, I could see conscripts getting the charge. It's a bit counterintuitive, using the line squads to screen the conscripts, but it seems like it could work.

Of course, I'd rather just have more guns.

It looks like I read the codex entry wrong. If I were to give warrior weapons to the conscripts, I'd have to give it to the whole army, not only the units I chose. And, yes, that would be a waste of points. Thanks for pointing out my mistake - it's why I wanted to post here.

See, I told you HBMC would come thru for you. lol

HBMC? I'm terrible with acronyms...

6 posts up....that guy....

Lol seems liek you now have 50 gaurdsmen with a pistol and hand weapon you have to tear off.

Nah I was way too cheap to model them that way. I just rewrote my list last night no big deal.

That's one point per guy to give them to the highest Ld plateau int he game, and all you have to do is hide that commissar in the very back of the unit behind fifty guys, where he will never be picked out. Don't even give him wargear (except maybe a stormbolter or combiweapon), there's no point.

One thing that you could add to your commissar is a trademark item which (I believe) will allow you to re-roll a failed LD test.

I personally look at the giant mob of conscripts as ablative armor versus HtH for the shootier parts of your army. I have run them that way with some success.

In 5th they will be scoring units. IF you can park them on an objective, they will hold it for a long time I am guessing. Their lack of mobility is a hassle for them in that respect.