Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I wrote a response to a post in the "News and Rumors" thread, and before I realized it it had become a whole lecture of its own. I'm reposting into the discussions section in its own thread.

The rise and fall of the Necron codex is actually really interesting. I've had a ringside view, as a Necron player who travels and attends tournaments at a fairly rapid pace.

First off, some definitions. When I'm talking about a Necron list I'm talking about one which does it right. You take minimum warriors, then Immortals and Destroyers (and in some cases Heavy Destroyers) in some mixture determined by your personal preferences and then the Deceiver. The list focuses on winning the shooting war with t5/WBB units that fire at 24" after moving, and the C'tan plays goalie, stopping flying tyrants and the like. (Kevin Kirby's defensive crons, winners of 'Ard Boys, were a counter-example, but that was at 2500, where you can keep your shooty core and get 3 liths. We hit the same round 2 tourney, and I was hoping to play him, as 3 Liths is a great target for gauss...ah well...)

My particular version is Deceiver, 20 warriors, 9 Destroyers in 3 squads, 3 heavy destroyers in 3 squads, then 3 squads of X immortals, where X is determined by how many points you've got left over. There are other worthwhile versions, but that's the general shape of all of them.

Anyway, to set the wayback machine a ways back, the real rise of the Necron list came about as a result of the metagame's tilt towards Nids/Eldar. Up until around the time of the Dark Angels those codexes came to dominate the tournament. Mech Tau functioned as a bit of a spoiler, as did really shooty gunline lists, but basically it was Nids and Eldar. Necrons, as a Nid/Eldar predator which happened to also obliterate Mech Tau and gunlines, came into their own.

The Eldar's story is intimately connected to the Necron tournament narrative, so it's worthwhile to take a gander at them. Holo-tanks take 9 glances to sit down, so the Necrons are pretty much the only codex which can reliably down them from range. They are scoring, and consequently trifalcon Eldar ruled objective missions to a ridiculous degree. If a Mech Eldar player didn't draw Necrons he could count on having any Holo-tank he didn't fly down someone's throat alive and scoring at game's end...and most likely those that he did. Lists which have adequate anti-tank for every other purpose still take 2 rounds to accumulate the # of glances required to destroy a holo-tank. The list is cheap to acquire, victorious in execution, and readily obvious from any perusal of the codex. Even as late as the Big Waaargh, perhaps the last GT of 4th edition, I still saw a ludicrous number of Trifalcon Eldar lists.

The Necron list, however, neutralizes each and every advantage of Trifalcon Eldar, and my own experiences suggest perhaps an 80% victory ratio. The Eldar player was frequently forced to resort to tank shocking, which exposes the back of the Falcons to Immortals and/or Destroyers. A falcon which does this is nigh-destroyed. The Harlequins can be handled with the 20 warriors counterassault that Necron players are so familiar with, while the Avatar is warded off by the Deceiver lurking behind some size 3 terrain.

A less important list than Trifalcon Eldar for this narrative is Nidzilla. Nidzilla uses a saturation of t6 2+ or 3+ save monsters to outshoot their enemy, and brings in stealers to finish things off. The Flying Tyrant, in particular, will take most lists 2 rounds 2 down at the proper range, and his devourers are ruinous. Much like Mech Eldar, Nidzilla is able to obliterate any non-tournament list by overrunning it. Gunlines simply lack the shooting to stop the MC wall before it gets in range to send the stealers in. Mech lists get pushed back off the objectives if they don't want to take deadly charges in addition to the shooting.

The Necron list, however, breaks the Nidzilla schtick. Rather than desperately leaping into assault because they can't outshoot the MC's or standing and shooting because their weapons are heavy the Necrons simply withdraw and keep the fight at range. Their WBB and multi-shot high strength weapons allow them to win the shooting war, and the Deceiver keeps the Flying Tyrant and raveners honest. It is no exaggeration to say that if he reaches combat anywhere the Deceiver would almost singlehandedly obliterate a Nidzilla list, bouncing from MC to MC and crushing them. Even the psychic Choir is unable to draw range to the Necron gunline, as they continually withdraw and engage at 24".

So that was the situation at the height of the Necron codex's success. It was a list you could bring to a tournament and be confident of victory with. The only Necron predator was Marine Drop Pods with twin-librarians using Fear the Darkness, and that list couldn't beat Mech Eldar or Nidzilla, so it was only a threat in round 1. You had at least a 50% chance to beat any and all other lists. In addition, because good Necrons don't have Monoliths and Orbs you got great soft scores for your "non-cheesy" necrons. Lastly, people are used to crushing bad Necron lists, and tend to underestimate a good one.

The first crack in the Necron's tournament success Monolith (groan...) occurred with the publication of the new Chaos Space Marine codex. The twin-Lash sorcerer/plague marine/obliterator list is a Necron predator. Shielded by the plague marines the sorcerers lash with impunity, moving the Deceiver away or clumping up the warriors/immortals for easy Obliterator pie plating. Plague Marines and Obliterators have the resilience to take Necron shooting for long enough to get the phase out, and if the Necrons dive into assault the power fists see to them easily.

This was a scary development, but not fatal in and of itself. Twin-lash could beat Nidzilla, but it was prey to Mech Eldar. Consequently Mech Eldar's popularity increased, while Twin Lash stayed lower. This permitted the Necrons to continue after a fashion. Without a way to beat Mech Eldar twin lash couldn't threaten Necrons by itself, and became just another form of Drop Pods, an obscure list that would thrash you if you were unfortunate enough to meet it before it got hit with Trifalcon.

Further, there was a fortunate development for the Necron codex, in that the Adepticon FAQ nerfed the heck out of twin-Lash. This meant that at Adepticon Necrons would have a shot vs. even a twin-lash matchup. Unfortunately this came out shortly after the appearance of the true destroyers of Necron tournament success.

The publication of the Ork Codex indicated the end of Necron tournament dominance. While Necrons are one of the few races that can win a shooting war with Orks they need to devote all their effort to blasting down the shooter boys, with no fire to spare for the Loota units. Further, Snikrot is a constant threat, as he'll lock up your destroyers/immortals and hold you while the Power Klaws get there. The Warbosses on bikes, and cheap templates, are just insult to injury. A properly constructed Ork list beats a properly constructed Necron list at least half the time, to be honest, the Orks probably have it 70%.

This wouldn't be an atrocious problem, merely another twin-lash or double drop pod mine to be avoided in the first and second rounds with good fortune, except that Orks do just fine against Mech Eldar. Lootas are a lot like destroyers or Immortals for popping falcons, better in some ways, and the Boys keep the points safe. Orks actually have some problems with Nidzilla, but that's not enough to stop them from proliferating. There are a LOT of Ork players, and the Orks have no real predator lists. Necrons are probably the closest thing, but even Necron can't really handle the Green Tide.

When I lost in the last round of the invitational at Adepticon I saw the writing on the wall. You could look at the top tables in every tournament that weekend, seemed like there was green no matter which direction you looked. Mech Eldar fights hard, but I think a good Ork list has them. Even worse, twin-lash is great vs. Orks, so Chaos players will proliferate in response to the Ork invasion.

Now, even here, Necrons are a strong choice for a tournament. Orks and Mech Eldar are likely the top competitors, and you've got a shot at both of them. You've got to dread twin-Lash chaos and drop pods, but you get the occasional Mech Tau list or non-Skimmer mech list as compensation, and any assault list is made a mockery of by the Deceiver.

Unfortunately, the slide continued, as GW came out with their official FAQs. This release hit Necrons like a ton of bricks.
1. Star Engines let Falcons move during the shooting phase, which means that after tank shocking you they can back up and hide their rear armor.
2. Lash is as great as it looks, period.
3. The Deceiver can't break fearless troops, merely kill a few with his fear beam.

#3 is just insult to injury, but #'s 1 and 2 are real problems. Necron's dominance over Mech Eldar is the primary key to their success, while Lash lists will become more popular due to #2.

Next up, the Demon codex came out. This was yet another landmine. They can't beat Orks or Mech Eldar, but they threaten the heck out of Necrons. The Deceiver can't be everywhere, and there can be up to 19 units in a Demon list, all of which will thrash Necrons in combat. Phase Out is a real possibility vs. a Demon list that gets a little lucky in the Necron's first shooting phase.

But for all this, Necrons hold on as a competitive list. I brought them to the Big Waaargh in this climate, and if it hadn't been for failing morale a bunch of times at the end of a game I might have recovered from meeting a twin-lash list. You've still got a shot, and as Orks get more popular you'll start to see scubbier variants, which will likely fall prey to the toasters.

Unfortunately, 5th edition is more of a hammer blow than any of the others. The change to combat resolution and the running change means that real blitz lists can obliterate Necrons in style. It absolutely kills defensive crons, who rely on holding at ld 10 and then warping out. Necrons of my school are less vulnerable to this, but a simple blitz is still a problem, as the Deceiver is only in one place, and everywhere else you are losing whole units to sweeping advance. Further, Orks and other Horde armies are protected by the new cover rules from the massed AP 4 which is Necron's trademark. By comparison to this nerf, the brutal glance rules are merely icing on the Necron weakening cake. Dang, did I just write that?

The weakening of Necrons is only half of the hammer blow though, the death of Trifalcon Eldar is the other. The new vehicle rules and the hits that Harlequins take means that Necron's chosen prey are going to be pretty thin on the ground coming up. That, more than anything, is the end for tournament Necrons.

The straw which broke my back was the new victory conditions. With only troops scoring necrons now have no one expendable to achieve 5th's brutal victory conditions...while the enemy can simple aim for phase out and ignore the difficult new missions. That means that in tournaments the enemy may be elated to draw Decepticrons, simply because scoring a victory with the scoring system in 5th is nearly impossible otherwise. I refuse to play a list that slaughters scrubs and then gives the tourney to whichever Ork is lucky enough to draw you in the later rounds.


SPECIAL EDIT REQUEST BY JFRAZ- As a personal request please refrain from quotes except for the original poster on this particular thread in replies. Thanks guys in advance.

Very well written! I read the post 3 times, looking for something to disagree with but I could not. I have been lucky with my Eldar in beating Necrons every time I have faced them and I agree that I have to completely rework my Eldar for 5th. I guess I am sorry to see Necrons going the way of the dodo on the RTT/GT scene.

I guess I better get back to painting Orks.

Excellent article. I'm sure Necrons will be back ;-) when their codex is rewritten. Remove phase out, add feel no pain, give all warriors slow and purposeful or relentless and you have a good basis for which to play them in 5th edition.

Defensive crons still wouldn't thrive...unless you gave them stubborn.

Necrons have always sucked, sorry to say.

One's expertise with a bad army does not make it good or better.

While it was interesting to read, I found it full of ego comments.

"So that was the situation at the height of the Necron codex's success. It was a list you could bring to a tournament and be confident of victory with."

When was this height? A week after it was released?

I don't know if you expected any critique or not, and while I applaud you taking the time to take to the pulpit, I can't imagine anyone taking this without a grain of salt.

Truth from point of view: Necrons suck, and have always sucked. Does your success with your army/playstyle actually make one of the most boring Codices with so few builds available which can really just hope you fail armor saves, viable? No, it does not.

FYI I've drawn both major builds (Mono Warrior horde and Deceiver lists) at almost every tournament I've attended since Necrons came out.

My longest game went the distance. Took me 4 turns to cross the board in a corner-to-corner mission. Then in 2 turns the game was over.

My shortest Necron game (well ok, 3 or 4 of them) were over by start of turn 3.

I can't even beat battleforce armies that quickly, and I've never run anything but balanced army lists.

Quality of opponents? Probably, though I did face two Necron players on the top tables in the last few years and in order to not be bored for 90 minutes I just fought them off the mission objectives instead of tabling them.

Necrons badly need a Codex revamp. That said, they've needed one for the last 5 years.

Stelek wrote:
While it was interesting to read, I found it full of ego comments.

Heh.

Stelek wrote:
While it was interesting to read, I found it full of ego comments.

Pot..? Kettle..?

If you could not make the destroyer Necrons work, you failed as a General. If you always beat them with no sweat, you never played anybody good.

I've been saying for a long time now that the top ten tables (where I've been for a decade) are bereft of good opponents.

My good is however probably not your 'good'.

Stelek wrote:Necrons have always sucked, sorry to say.

One's expertise with a bad army does not make it good or better.

While it was interesting to read, I found it full of ego comments.

"So that was the situation at the height of the Necron codex's success. It was a list you could bring to a tournament and be confident of victory with."

When was this height? A week after it was released?

I don't know if you expected any critique or not, and while I applaud you taking the time to take to the pulpit, I can't imagine anyone taking this without a grain of salt.

Truth from point of view: Necrons suck, and have always sucked. Does your success with your army/playstyle actually make one of the most boring Codices with so few builds available which can really just hope you fail armor saves, viable? No, it does not.

FYI I've drawn both major builds (Mono Warrior horde and Deceiver lists) at almost every tournament I've attended since Necrons came out.

My longest game went the distance. Took me 4 turns to cross the board in a corner-to-corner mission. Then in 2 turns the game was over.

My shortest Necron game (well ok, 3 or 4 of them) were over by start of turn 3.

I can't even beat battleforce armies that quickly, and I've never run anything but balanced army lists.

Quality of opponents? Probably, though I did face two Necron players on the top tables in the last few years and in order to not be bored for 90 minutes I just fought them off the mission objectives instead of tabling them.

Necrons badly need a Codex revamp. That said, they've needed one for the last 5 years.

HA! I'm not sure why you think this, but I'm here to say that in 4th, they were "ok". Not great, but could hold their own in most games. Necrons have a back bone that most armies over look. Now as I have never taken Immortals, but I do run the Destroyers in my list. I play 8 Destroyers, in squads of 2, and 4 Heavys in squads of 2. I can field 15, and 9, but I dont.

It doesn't matter if you can beat an army in 3-4 turns. It doens't mean that army sucks. It means you know how to defeat it. I've never lost to a Mech Tau army. Is it good though, yes. It matter who you play, how you play, and if you know what to expect or not. Daemons are new. Would I know everything about Daemons? No. So I would probably loose to them the first couple of times.

The Necron codex is out-dated. It's 5th now. The rules play against them. The new codex will make them playable again, if and when they get it, so until then, you'll probably see them die down.

stelek wrote:I've been saying for a long time now that the top ten tables (where I've been for a decade) are bereft of good opponents.

Probably because you have been playing out west. Midwest is where it is at.

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:

stelek wrote:I've been saying for a long time now that the top ten tables (where I've been for a decade) are bereft of good opponents.

Probably because you have been playing out west. Midwest is where it is at.

On second though, I think the wisest course of action to not to answer either of you.

You're all incredibly wrong. Play a Killeen RTT. If you lose, they run over you with an M1 tank. if you win, they let you drive the tank. Thats hardcore.

In Inquisitor_Malices defense, there is not alot to do in the Midwest other than play 40k in your basement, when it's not flooded.

Interesting read. Most matchup summaries (necrons beat eldar, lash beats godzilla) seem area dependent.

I think the height of the necron codex came much earlier, before the marine gunlines figured out how to beat them (and a marine gunline can beat a necron army most of the time in 4th).

Anyway, Midwest vs. world aside (ATL, hurr!), anyone have any factors in the Necron metagame that I missed, besides Stelek?

I tried to be pretty comprehensive, but after all I'm just drawing on one club's experience, could well be some more info out there I could add in.

I think that's an excellent analysis. Can you take it a step forwards (not in this thread), and postulate where you think the metagame is headed based on the 5th changes? It seems like you're almost there in this post, with perhaps a little more analysis.

SPECIAL EDIT REQUEST BY JFRAZ- As a personal request please refrain from quotes except for the original poster on this particular thread. Thanks guys in advance.

Hmmm I don't think much of mech tau either. lol

I fear Dark Eldar, Eldar, Nids (not zilla), and Sisters.

Everything else, no fear.

Edit Deleted by Mod Jfraz

jfrazell wrote:You're all incredibly wrong. Play a Killeen RTT. If you lose, they run over you with an M1 tank. if you win, they let you drive the tank. Thats hardcore.

Now that is hardcore.

Do you get to lie on nails when they do this, for the full therapeutic benefit?

I wonder where everyone gets the idea I only play out west. I play in lots of places.

Stelek wrote:

jfrazell wrote:You're all incredibly wrong. Play a Killeen RTT. If you lose, they run over you with an M1 tank. if you win, they let you drive the tank. Thats hardcore.

Now that is hardcore.

Do you get to lie on nails when they do this, for the full therapeutic benefit?

I wonder where everyone gets the idea I only play out west. I play in lots of places.

No, claymores. The effect is so much better

Edit Deleted by Mod Jfraz

Necron army won the invitational at Gladiator I believe.

That tourney had as tough of competition as you will find.

Hmmm Claymores. lol you are talking about the mines, right?

For some reason I thought about those big swords.

Stelek wrote:Hmmm Claymores. lol you are talking about the mines, right?

For some reason I thought about those big swords.

The mines, but either would have a similar effect.

At the 2008 Adepticon Invitational Orks took 1st and 2nd spots. It was also a three game tournament. Even though there were a bunch of strong players in attendance there was no time for the swiss style pairings to kick in.

Those damn Orks. 5 games really does help sort things out a bit. Nothing is perfect though, I think alot of the Orks early success was their newness. Happens with every Codex.
Except the 2 cursed Codices.

jfrazell wrote:

Stelek wrote:Hmmm Claymores. lol you are talking about the mines, right?

For some reason I thought about those big swords.

The mines, but either would have a similar effect.

So is there really a M1 tank? And what M1? lol modern or like WW1 or WW2?

And uhh thanks for the modding.

Seriously, Killeen is home of Fort Hood. Much of the gaming population is active military.

Oh I know. I rode around in a M60 at Fort Dix, it was entertaining when we flipped it.

Good thing I was in the Navy at the time, so I just got thrown off the base. lol

I rode a FT17 near Marseilles, and there's quite a collection of WWI and WWII tanks here in Utah.

They're quite good about letting you ride around in them...no flipping though, they are privately owned. lol