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Hey all, Though I haven't had a chance to get a game(I hate work) I've been pouring over the Rulebook to see if my favorite troop choice has anything going for it in the new edition. If I've missed anything you think is relevant please let me know as I really like these guys and it seems the entire edition is moving well away from what these guys provide.

Inferno Bolts - They're a troop choice with abit of bite, Nearly everything except for Termies and their ilk lose their Armor saves to these guys but of course everything can get 6+ cover at any point and will have 4+ to 5+ cover most of the time it really loses much of its effectiveness

Sorcerer - 60pts + a power for a champ who can cast and use his Force Weapon in the same turn now. (The FW counts as a power and the MoT allows anyone with it to use 2 powers a turn.) Also powers are nice,WoC or BoC are a must have depending on what ya want 'em to do. I also think there was change to the Slow and Purposeful rules,It doesn't say models with this lose the +1A on a charge,Not that it affected the sorcerer but a charge is now slightly more viable. Also for some reason S&P doesn't stop you from running which is more academic benefit then anything

Wind of Chaos - I mentioned it but it is a Flamer which auto kills and auto glances on a 4+ which given that flamers are the new weapons of the day it's pretty sweet. If a unit was in cover it would probably do a hell of a lot more damage then a fusillade of Inferno bolts.

4+ Inv save - Well given that cover/intervening squad can grant something similar it seems a waste of points but it is always on no matter where they are it is very nice. Of course with the move toward high shot weapons which rarely have AP3 or better it could be unused for much of the game.

Survivable Rhinos - Well with some slightly more survivable transports this time using Rhinos to drive these guys into a position where they can Rpd fire and cast without gak getting between you and them seems kinda cool but not sure how often you could pull it off.

They're troops - They score 'Nuff said.

They cost an arm and a leg - Can't believe I forgot this. They cost a fortune, 8pts more then standard CSM and equal to the Plague Marines(An arguably better choice in this edition) and the Sorcerer costing 90 points with WoC they really are pricey and not sure you would ever take more then 7 Sons and a Sorcerer which is easy enough to wipe out.

I cannot really think of anything else, I'm sure to have missed something or gotten a rule completely arseways so please let me know.

You forgot slow and purposefuls effect on assaulting. They are back to striking last since they have to take a difficult terrain test in order to assault and they don't have grenades (AFAIK). Still, being relentless helps a bit.

Changes to Force Weapon rules (counting as Instant Death, in a time when ignoring instant death is pretty common) makes the 60 point price tag of the sorcerer hard to swallow.

Also, you don't get cover saves in close combat, so the inv save really shines when the unit gets assaulted (which with the ranges involved is inevitable).

I think the changes to cover only slightly hurt the inferno bolt. You still had units in cover quite a bit in 4ed and with the short range i don't think the changes to obscuring granting saves effects the inferno bolters all that much. What is an issue is 4+ cover being more plentiful. I think this strengthens the argument for taking lash if you plan on using 1kson units.

Agreed with all of the above points. In addition to all of this is the new proliferation of non-MEQ armies. Orks, in particular, are becoming very popular.

Since the Inferno Bolts really only shine when shooting MEQ that are not in cover and are within rapid fire range - it is a rare situation that makes them worth the price tag. Noise Marines (w/ Blast Master) are begining to look far more attractive. They fire 3 times as much at 12"-24" and MEQ fail (on average) 1/3 of their Armor saves. This makes them just as effective at that range when the enemy is not in cover and far more effective when they are in cover. They may seem more expensive at first blush. But when you average in the price of a Sorcerer, the per-model cost of a KSon is actually higher.

Having an inv save when you walk in the open is still quite good. A lot of people have to break cover to get to objectives, so I am still finding a lot of shooting has no cover save. It only comes into effect when trying to take away those objectives which are invariably in cover.

The withering fire is great. They can continually move backward and shoot to 24, then try and get within 12" for the rapid fire. They are a powerful unit, but have to get into the right situations to see a return.

When the new codex came out I almost loaded up on a few boxes of 1000 sons for my Black Legion list. With the release of 5th ed, I am VERY glad that I did not buy any. It is so sad, I really love the models.

GW just don't like Tzeentch lists to do well. It is pretty sad. If they were loyalists they'd totally ignore cover aswell.

Yeah. Because loyalists have like 20 different units with AP3 bolters that ignore cover.

I agree with Toreador. the inv is still much better than the cover save. Works in the open and in cc. Now that the 4+ cover saves are so prevalent they just aren't quite as special any more. Better than NM, it doesn't seem like it, but certainly not gimped.