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got to love those crazy afghan's.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828/ap_on_re_as/afghan_rapists_freed

hmm, then again, you don't.

Releasing someone early should ONLY be done when those concerned have demonstrated genuine remorse and can be safely deemed not to be a threat to their victims.

While the report does not speak to the first point, the second is clearly being ignored by the authorities. This is not the kind of thing that will convince the world that Afghanistan is a progressive, civilised society.

What ever made you think they were a progressive society? They're not. It's a patriachial structure and women are clearly viewed by many as second class citizens. The worst part is that a lot of this is done under the guise of religion.

I'm saying that's the image Afghanistan wants to project.

In fairness to them, there are places where women are treated much worse (Saudi Arabia is the most obvious one that springs to mind). At least afghan women can vote, work, attend school, etc.

This does not, of course, excuse what's happened.

Your point about religion, though - I take issue with. Islamic scipture quite clearly states that women should be treated with respect and dignity. Historically, early Islam had some of the most equal and progressive attitudes found to women.
Shari'a law, however, has been used to oppress women for centuries. Despite its surface connection to Islam, Shari'a is rooted in secular, patriarchal and tribal laws of the early mediaeval period and, unlike Islam, has no place in the modern world.

Despite the best efforts of the British, French and us Americans over the last several hundred years, you simply can't drag primitives into the light of reason, you have to wait for them to get over themselves, no matter how long it takes. Once the oil dries up, the arabs will have to face either getting their act together or going back to being poor nomads and then maybe them they'll have their own equivalent of the rennaisance.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Your point about religion, though - I take issue with. Islamic scipture quite clearly states that women should be treated with respect and dignity. Historically, early Islam had some of the most equal and progressive attitudes found to women.
Shari'a law, however, has been used to oppress women for centuries. Despite its surface connection to Islam, Shari'a is rooted in secular, patriarchal and tribal laws of the early mediaeval period and, unlike Islam, has no place in the modern world.

So basically you are making deitrich's point. He didn't say it was religion, he said it was under the guise of religion. Feel free to go over there and tell them that you know all about Islam and that they are wrong and are confused. They will believe you.

warpcrafter wrote:they'll have their own equivalent of the rennaisance.

They have, though it has gone backwards. For a time the Muslim world was one of the Academic and learning centers of the world that advanced math, science and art. Then things went tits up for a lot of complicated reasons that are debated.

This is the one benefit of the oil drying up, isn't it. All the two bit dictator / religious fanatics making money hand over fist will again be the impoverished nothings they were before.

Here's to energy independence for the world!

In Afghanistan it simply won't matter when the oil dries up. The aount of money made from growing opium poppies for refinment into heroin is staggering.

We need to seal our borders anyway.

jfrazell wrote:We need to seal our borders anyway.

Seals are overrated. Except baby ones.

With clubs.

I was about to say we need to seal the borders to protect our domestic illegal drugs. Why should "dern ferreners" be allowed to dump their illegal drugs here? We have perfectly good US substitutes. Buy American!

jfrazell wrote:We need to seal our borders anyway.

Do you have any idea how much immigration benefits your country's infrastructure?

Anti-Mag wrote:Do you have any idea how much immigration benefits your country's infrastructure?

*Legal* Immigration? Plenty of benefit.

*Illegal* Immigration? It's a definite drain.

jfrazell wrote:We need to seal our borders anyway.

That solves nothing. You can bury your head in the sand, but it doesn't make the world disappear. America is based off immigration. Remember....."Bring us your tired, your hungry, .......", ring any bells? Hell, unless you are 100% Native American, you come from immigrants. Afghanistan suffers from age old beliefs, and total lack of structured government. Not sure that Democracy will work for them. But that country is currently living under the old, "He who can wield the power has the power" system. One of their major sources of income is from poppies. Not easy to build a stable society in that situation. Afghanistan is a long term project.

Could you explain that to me John? How can people doing menial labour for paltry sums that can claim no benefits, or free healthcare, be a drain?

It is a knee jerk reaction. But illegal immigration does just as much benefit as it create in detractions. I personally believe that it is a wash. But here in America it is a hot button topic. Personally I don't get it. There is plenty of employment and the healthcare angle is just a joke. The drain on our healthcare system IS our healthcare system. Not the illegals. Hell, if someone is willing to do menial labor for a few bucks an hour, more power to them. If they are taking your job, then buddy....you need to educate yourself and get into another job bracket. I have worked with both legal and illegal immigrants, and the only thing that is bad is that they work so damn hard that they make Americans look lazy.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Anti-Mag wrote:Do you have any idea how much immigration benefits your country's infrastructure?

*Legal* Immigration? Plenty of benefit.

*Illegal* Immigration? It's a definite drain.

Exactly.

How do we go from a perfectly reasonable topic of Afgani rapists to US immigration policy?

ixlar wrote:It is a knee jerk reaction. But illegal immigration does just as much benefit as it create in detractions. I personally believe that it is a wash. But here in America it is a hot button topic. Personally I don't get it. There is plenty of employment and the healthcare angle is just a joke. The drain on our healthcare system IS our healthcare system. Not the illegals. Hell, if someone is willing to do menial labor for a few bucks an hour, more power to them. If they are taking your job, then buddy....you need to educate yourself and get into another job bracket. I have worked with both legal and illegal immigrants, and the only thing that is bad is that they work so damn hard that they make Americans look lazy.

There are estimates of 12MM to 20MM illegal aliens in this country. They depend on emergency room helthcare. Thats the most expensive type of healthcare. Thats billions of dollars that shouldn't have to be spent.

Is it the illegal aliens fault? No. These are generally hard working people. OTT but I give "em a thorough background check, make 'em take some civics class and language classes in Texan and sign 'em up as citizens. They're my kind of people. But they are a drain as we are effectviely importing millions of impoverished people.

As importantly the open borders are an easy access for drugs (as noted) and an easy access for terrorists (my real concern).

Ahtman wrote:How do we go from a perfectly reasonable topic of Afgani rapists to US immigration policy?

Its the cycle of life (on the OTT boards).

jfrazell wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Anti-Mag wrote:Do you have any idea how much immigration benefits your country's infrastructure?

*Legal* Immigration? Plenty of benefit.

*Illegal* Immigration? It's a definite drain.

Exactly.

Please explain how it is a drain. Don't use general terms. I would like to see some data.

How do we go from a perfectly reasonable topic of Afgani rapists to US immigration policy?

Because the absolute absurd idea of closing our borders was mentioned, and that is a seed of ignorance, and must be spoken to.

It's exactly the same here in England. We are currently welcoming many people from eastern Europe, especially Poles. You never see them claiming benefits. They work hard and will do almost anything. Can you imagine leaving your country to work in a completely alien environment? What if Afghanistan was the cockpit of the world? Get some perspective.

Our empire was built upon immigration, as was much of the US. The least either of our countries can do is to give their modern contemporary's the chance to find work. I completely agree with the guys above me. As an aside, nearly all of UK healthcare is free. The National Health Service is a little strained, but again this is a problem with its structure, NOT its patients demographic.

"Any nation that can't control its borders is no nation."
Montecuzuma, shortly before those illegal immigrant Spanish conquistadores eliminated his reign on a permanent basis.

Every nation has the right to control its borders. The thought that that is absurd is not coherent.

jfrazell wrote:

ixlar wrote:It is a knee jerk reaction. But illegal immigration does just as much benefit as it create in detractions. I personally believe that it is a wash. But here in America it is a hot button topic. Personally I don't get it. There is plenty of employment and the healthcare angle is just a joke. The drain on our healthcare system IS our healthcare system. Not the illegals. Hell, if someone is willing to do menial labor for a few bucks an hour, more power to them. If they are taking your job, then buddy....you need to educate yourself and get into another job bracket. I have worked with both legal and illegal immigrants, and the only thing that is bad is that they work so damn hard that they make Americans look lazy.

There are estimates of 12MM to 20MM illegal aliens in this country. They depend on emergency room helthcare. Thats the most expensive type of healthcare. Thats billions of dollars that shouldn't have to be spent.

Is it the illegal aliens fault? No. These are generally hard working people. OTT but I give "em a thorough background check, make 'em take some civics class and language classes in Texan and sign 'em up as citizens. They're my kind of people. But they are a drain as we are effectviely importing millions of impoverished people.

As importantly the open borders are an easy access for drugs (as noted) and an easy access for terrorists (my real concern).

First off, get over it, it is a price that must be paid when you have an open society. The reason the healthcare costs so dang much is because of the system. Illegal immigrants is a red herring to pull your focus off the real problem. Our healthcare system is an out of control beast. If you want to complain about anything, complain about that. It sure isn't the immigrants use, or abuse of the system that is causing problems.

Anti-Mag wrote:

Our empire was built upon immigration, as was much of the US. The least either of our countries can do is to give their modern contemporary's the chance to find work. I completely agree with the guys above me. As an aside, nearly all of UK healthcare is free. The National Health Service is a little strained, but again this is a problem with its structure, NOT its patients demographic.

You might not have noticed your empire is toast...

Why do you confuse legal immigration with illegal immigration? One is controlled.
Another is an open border any hard working illegal can cross. Or the murdering M13 member walking beside him. Or the terrorist.

So Mexico is permitted to control its southern border, but not the US? Ok...

Every nation has the right to control its borders. The thought that that is absurd is not coherent.

I know, maybe we should build a big wall and that will protect our boarders. Oh wait, that has previously been tried and FAILED. Creating a closed society would be a death blow. And comparing immigration today to the Spaniards invading Mexico is not coherent. I don't even get that. Maybe we should stop all travel so no one goes where they don't belong. That will stop the terrorists. Seriously, you have to get a little more progressive. Terrorism either will or it won't happen. It is how we handle the situation that will define us. Taking away rights and closing boarders plays right into their hands. They win. How possibly could you imagine that we could even close our boarders anyway? One thing that humanity has proven over the centuries is that if there is a will, there is a way. If people want to get into the country, they will. It is just as simple as that.

jfrazell wrote:


You might not have noticed your empire is toast...

Your desperation to back up your moronic argument is staggering. I feel concerned that you somehow became a moderator. Lets hope you don't moderate US foreign policy in the future.

As for our Empire, of course it's gone. But for a nation that once had the biggest empire the world has ever seen, I think we have shown remarkable decency to our former colonies and their inhabitants.

Don't bsingly attack sound arguments againsts your views. You mock my reference of the British Empire, but feel comfortable in quoting an Aztec? Do you just pick history that suits you? Wake up.

Let's talk about a couple simple cases involving illegal immigration:

Suppose an illegal causes a car accident, and someone gets hurt. Is there proper recompense? No. The illegal isn't insured. They won't be paying the appropriately higher premiums for the harm they caused.

Suppose an illegal gets hurt and needs medical attention. He goes to the ER and gets fixed up, because the doctors are required to give care regardless of status or insurance. But does he pay? No. He skips out on the bill.

In both cases, honest people end up paying higher automobile and health insurance because a bunch of freeloaders are taking but not paying.


And quite frankly, the US (like any other country) is not possessed of infinite resources. Therefore, we have the need (and right) to control immigration.


And finally, let's not forget that there are a number of illegals who commit criminal acts. We're supposed to accept that? No way.

Yeah, because legal Americans don't do any of those things. What about citizens that do the same things you just described? Just so you know, more citizens do what you just used as an argument that illegal immigrants. Maybe we should just shoot them all???? I'm sure that would solve the problem.

honest people

Guess only Americans are honest? They never lie.