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Warmachine is initially cheaper to get into that 40k. That said it is important to note that in the long run its WAY more expensive than 40k. I have 2 complete 3k point 40k Armies for the price of every Khador model/unit/jack. Most Factions run a good mix of jacks/solos/units (except khador who usually only ever runs 1 jack if that)

Warmachine has a better rules set but it is by no means "simpler" In fact i find the rules for warmachine far more complex than the 40k rules. This is because every unit in the game has different rules abilities and no 2 units work similarly. Now the fact that every unit has cards does help with this but it only helps slightly.

I do not like the "OMGWTF" factor of surprise that regularly happens in this game. If assassination victories were taken off the table i find less of an issue with this but in the 3 FLGS I frequent Assassination is the way 9/10 people play. I do not like that you could be clearly losing the game but still win with the use of a feat and a few other models (again assassination problem) however i do like that a player is never really out of it until the end.

Red_Lives wrote:Warmachine is initially cheaper to get into that 40k. That said it is important to note that in the long run its WAY more expensive than 40k. I have 2 complete 3k point 40k Armies for the price of every Khador model/unit/jack. Most Factions run a good mix of jacks/solos/units (except khador who usually only ever runs 1 jack if that)

Holy Carp! Where do you buy your models from?? 2 armies for the price of every unit? Your Khador aint gold plated is it? I understand What you are really trying to say but if you dont figure in the secondary sales market or Bartertown the games cost about the same.

I agree that the rules are a bit complicated but 40K players can pick it up without too much trouble.

I also understand your position with the asssassination business. I felt the way you do when I first started playing but now I really enjoy that aspect of the game. Its like chess. If you can assassinate the other guys king, you win! Since I started playing WM/H I feel that 40K is a game of just shoving models forward and chucking dice. I enjoy the differences in playstyle of the 2 games. Warmachine has made me play more WFB over 40K....its kinda wierd....like I didnt appreciate the tactical nature of WFB until I played 40K

My favorite game in the world is Blood Bowl and I think thats what clinched it for WM. Each model or unit activates and does everything, then you move to the next unit. Very sequential, like BB!

No i'm talking retail. But with mercs included and multiple units where applicable, hell the ulhans and alexia ran me about 200 USD. AND THAT'S ONLY 2 UNITS!!! And the 2 40k armies are have are TAU and Marines.

Comparing plastic to metal you get something like:

Plastic cavalry = 35 bucks for 8
WM cavalry = 100 for 5

or something like that.

Yea the costs of WM units are outrageous.

Warmachine can get expensive, mainly because you actually want to buy a variety of different units and constantly change things in your army.

That said, I can build a perfectly good "starter force" for $150 or $130 or so if I get discounts online or locally if you play 500 Points.

But once you add in certain units (like Cav), things can get very expensive. Your examples are probably the worst bits for PP games - Cav and a Merc unit that if you're going to use it, you will need a lot of models.

For 40k and Marines/Tau it's very easy to build an army - most things are plastic and you generally don't take a lot of variation. For Tau it's 3x Hammerheads, X number of Firewarriors, and then Suits.

Marines are very similar. You can stretch things pretty far if you mix and match kits just right or get the right bundle deal.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Warmachine can get expensive, mainly because you actually want to buy a variety of different units and constantly change things in your army.

That said, I can build a perfectly good "starter force" for $150 or $130 or so if I get discounts online or locally if you play 500 Points.

But once you add in certain units (like Cav), things can get very expensive. Your examples are probably the worst bits for PP games - Cav and a Merc unit that if you're going to use it, you will need a lot of models.

For 40k and Marines/Tau it's very easy to build an army - most things are plastic and you generally don't take a lot of variation. For Tau it's 3x Hammerheads, X number of Firewarriors, and then Suits.

Marines are very similar. You can stretch things pretty far if you mix and match kits just right or get the right bundle deal.

Trust me i know. WM units get real costly real fast, I'm going to do a price check on what i've bought for 40k and WM and truly see the difference.

The problem with cost in WM is that you'll have a good 750 point army (equivalent of 1850 in 40k as the standard tournament size list), but it didn't sink your bank account and it fits nice and easy into a carrying case (fewer models). So you think: "Hey, I've got the room, I'll get some more figs in case I want to play the list a different way". 6 months later you own every fig PP produces and are complaining about the cost vs. 40k.

If you limit yourself to a tourney list, the way that most 40k players do. I think you'll find the cost is significantly in the advantage of WM/H.

I play both equally now, but 40k is quickly losing it's grip on me. It feels so basic and stale compared to all the crazy things that happen in a WM/H game. I call 40k 'Scoophammer' now, because it seems like all we're doing is just scooping models. Each player has a shooting phase and a scooping phase, repeat until one of you gets sick of it or the game ends.

WM/H is incredibly difficult though and can be a real ego bruiser for the casual player that is more interested in pushing mini's around than actually competing for the win. There are so many powers in the game that will change every match and every combination that you've really got to live the game in order to keep up with it fully.

I call Warhammer "Buckets o' Dice" because it's fun to pick up lots of dice.

Maybe we should call 40k War-yahtzee and Warmachine War-craps.

Moz wrote:The problem with cost in WM is that you'll have a good 750 point army (equivalent of 1850 in 40k as the standard tournament size list), but it didn't sink your bank account and it fits nice and easy into a carrying case (fewer models). So you think: "Hey, I've got the room, I'll get some more figs in case I want to play the list a different way". 6 months later you own every fig PP produces and are complaining about the cost vs. 40k.

If you limit yourself to a tourney list, the way that most 40k players do. I think you'll find the cost is significantly in the advantage of WM/H.

I play both equally now, but 40k is quickly losing it's grip on me. It feels so basic and stale compared to all the crazy things that happen in a WM/H game. I call 40k 'Scoophammer' now, because it seems like all we're doing is just scooping models. Each player has a shooting phase and a scooping phase, repeat until one of you gets sick of it or the game ends.

WM/H is incredibly difficult though and can be a real ego bruiser for the casual player that is more interested in pushing mini's around than actually competing for the win. There are so many powers in the game that will change every match and every combination that you've really got to live the game in order to keep up with it fully.

I think you hit it right on the head with your first point.

When I build an army for WHFB or 40k, I generally build a list that works, without a whole lot of variation on that style. Because generally in WHFB or 40k, there isn't much variation on what works, or if there is, it's small. The current Daemon army I'm building is pretty limited in what it's using: Horrors, Flesh Hounds, Flamers, Furies - then you add characters. I will change things around slightly with the list, but generally it will be composed of those elements.

For WM and Hordes, if I just built one list and stuck with it, I'd be well under what I spend on a GW army. But with WM/Hordes the ability to swap and customize your list based on different selections is far more immense than what is available with most GW armies. At least in terms of being able to switch to different styles of play or changing out units but still have the army be decent in the game.

Boring Maths & Analysis

On some level it sure does suck when comparing models between GW and PP. Metal unit prices are fairly comparable, I'm looking at doing a Circle army and one unit I want is a full unit of Wolves + UA. That's 12 Metal Infantry Models which will cost: 33 (box of 6 w/ leader) +11 (blister of 2) +11 (blister of 2) + 18 (unit attachment of 2 models) = $73 (or $55 without command)

Compare that to GW's metal infantry for WHFB (with command) which under their new scheme is generally $20 for 5 models, and $22 for 3 command models + 2 more generic dudes. So you're looking at about $62 for what ends up being 15 models instead of 12.

The difference or illusion of cheapness is that for PP games, those 12 guys will make up anywhere between 14% - 22% of your army. In GW games, you're looking at the same number of models representing a very small percentage of your army and most importantly just having 15 guys with command generally isn't a very useful unit, where as the equivalent in PP games is about as good as it gets for that unit (generally).

So on a pure "I get X number of models for Y amount of Dollars" I believe GW is going to win. And when you start comparing a set of 10 models for a unit for Warmachine to a plastic regiment box for WHFB or 40k, there's just no contest on this level.

On the other hand, there are many instances of GW just screwing you over model-to-unit wise. If I wanted to build a Dark Elf army, that would include say 3 units of 5 Harpies, a very solid and near mandatory choice for the army, that will cost me $120, and net me an extra model I don't need buying from GW. The same thing applies to Shades, who are also a very good unit that many people will take, that will come in similar configurations. You will pay through the nose for units like that.

I just started playing Hordes and all the models have been at a fairly good price, until you want to get some cavalry?! What is the deal with the prices on those things? I know there isn't that much metal in them! Especially considering how much metal is in the larger beasts or jacks, that are 10 to 20 dollars cheaper than the cavalry units?

Has anyone tried to explain he cost of cavalry? Am I missing something?

They are about on par weight wise with the Jacks/Beasts, and the box comes with 3 of them, so you do the math.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if there was some of the good old fashioned "this unit will take up XYZ number of points and are effective", which means that they are at liberty to charge a bit more for them than usual - kinda like GW and Terminators.

PP appears to strictly price based on weight of the models. I suspect there is some base price of a few dollars that is added in to cover packaging and shipping.

Warmachine and Hordes really varies in price dependent on your point level 500, 750 or 1,000 and if you going for infantry or you have a beast/jack heavy list. It can be pretty cheap to start a 500 force thats beast/jack heavy but if you want 750 or 1,000 infantry heavy its really expensive because everything is metal and priced higher because of that.

Number of pieces and amount of detail also factor into price. The more of either, the more expensive the model. It's why Drago is more expensive than Beast-09.

Also keep in mind that the Prime and Escalation releases are generally older prices and offer better value. PP has done several price increases, but I still think the Ironclad is like 2/3 to 3/4 the price of Ol' Rowdy.

The PP indeed compensate the prices of older models with newer. The newer heavy jacks are more expensive than the older, same with units. The solos seem to be staying in the same price range.

dietrich wrote:PP appears to strictly price based on weight of the models. I suspect there is some base price of a few dollars that is added in to cover packaging and shipping.

For the most part, that does appear to be the case. However, uniques (like character jacks) seem to run slightly high. That might be an artificial observation which is more influenced by the new model Wow factor, but I think there is something there. Of course, why wouldn't they mark up uniques? It makes sense. They won't sell as many since you can only ever use one in any size list.

Cav is indeed a bank-breaker. But Wolfriders are oh so worth it!

Until they take one too many terror checks.

Then your hundred dollars is gone :(

I love the models, too.

Metsuri wrote:The PP indeed compensate the prices of older models with newer. The newer heavy jacks are more expensive than the older, same with units. The solos seem to be staying in the same price range.

What's nice about this is that, while some newer units/solos are dead 'ard (especially in Legends: everything fearless wot?) most of the prime/primal stuff is still VERY competitive. There isn't the level of 'codex creep' in WM/Hordes that you have in 40k.

The price problem is, as Voodoo (?) stated above, is that there are no obvious 'bad' or 'good' choices; just about everything has utility and diversity tends to trump spm lists. There are exceptions, of course, but better game and unit design tends to create more stuff that's desirable. What's nice is that, because it's designed primarily as a skirmish+ game, 350 point games work just as well as 750points, i.e. one can scale down as easily as up, which can be a cost savings to people who like steam powered robots named Jack but don't want to have a whole gym bag full of lead fishing sinkers

That is certainly making it very attractive to my local group. A lot of the RPGers have gotten interested once they learned they can play fun games with under 20 models.

Oddly, it's also a stumbling block with some of the die hard 40K people. There's a lot of whinging about WM stealing from 40K too, which is bollocks but there you go.

syr8766 wrote:
What's nice about this is that, while some newer units/solos are dead 'ard (especially in Legends: everything fearless wot?) most of the prime/primal stuff is still VERY competitive. There isn't the level of 'codex creep' in WM/Hordes that you have in 40k.

What's nice is that, because it's designed primarily as a skirmish+ game, 350 point games work just as well as 750points, i.e. one can scale down as easily as up, which can be a cost savings to people who like steam powered robots named Jack but don't want to have a whole gym bag full of lead fishing sinkers

I'll disagree with you on two things.

1. Things not Fearless in Superiority: Black 13th, Trencher Cannon Crew, ATGM + UA,
Sword Knights + UA, Arlan Strangeways, Vassal, Idrians and Idrians + UA, Koldun,
Kayazy, Forge Guard, Steelhead Cavalry. The list of FEarless things is long, but they
at least make sense still. So Precursor Knights, exemplar Bastions and all the blighted
and undead units are Fearless.

2. Hordes doesn't scale well both up and down. The fury mechanic makes me think that
the game needs 750 points around the waist. 500 is snug and 350 is downright
constricting.

syr8766 wrote:

What's nice about this is that, while some newer units/solos are dead 'ard (especially in Legends: everything fearless wot?) most of the prime/primal stuff is still VERY competitive. There isn't the level of 'codex creep' in WM/Hordes that you have in 40k.

I disagree, there is a "creep" they just overcompensate with overpriced UAs and Solos. For example when was the last time you saw winterguard (not from a new player) without Jozef and/or the UA? Doom Reavers without eButch or Fenris? hell when was the last time you even saw Stormblades?! Gunmages? Statyxis Raiders? scrap Thralls? Mechanics?

Now i agree that there is a good amount of stuff from prime that is VERY competative, there is an equal or more amount that is just plain outdated.

They screw up sure, hell I'm trying to get rid of my Winterguard, but they had problems back IN PRIME. At least now there's a good reason to take them if you go all out with it.

If this was say, GW, then they would languish for years until maybe they got new models and GW decided to make them awesome in the next codex.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:They screw up sure, hell I'm trying to get rid of my Winterguard, but they had problems back IN PRIME. At least now there's a good reason to take them if you go all out with it.

If this was say, GW, then they would languish for years until maybe they got new models and GW decided to make them awesome in the next codex.

And you don't think PP will do that with the new "army books"? Get real its smart buisness to "re-invigorate" supported model lines by making them better.

Yair, I was wrong about my earlier post. The Sword Knights UA does in fact make Sword
Knights "not run away." I missed it because the text didn't say Fearless.

Red

The creep isn't so much power creep as text creep. Because units that only had
one trick to them weren't really being used due to their situational nature, I think
they're starting to give units more situational abilities rather than less. And how
do you deal with the new abundance of situational abilities? You give new models
even more situational abilities.

I'm not complaining though. I like the mechanic even if I don't like trying to read the
text. Some day I'm going to make my own "Codex" by tearing up my books. I shall
use the souls of latest opponent to bind the pages together and it will be good.

That text creep does infact increase the usefulness and therefor power of units. Sure the P+S may be the same but when its P+S+X things change.

Red_Lives wrote:That text creep does infact increase the usefulness and therefor power of units. Sure the P+S may be the same but when its P+S+X things change.

X usually refers to a condition that is still limited by the point scale of the game. If you
want true creep, look to GW tourneys that always seem to want to increase army size
beyond 1500. 1850 is the sweet spot? Really? How many points was Ard boyz?

I tend to think of that as creep.

malfred wrote:Some day I'm going to make my own "Codex" by tearing up my books. I shall
use the souls of latest opponent to bind the pages together and it will be good.

Don't you have to actually win to claim your opponents' souls?




oh snap

I thought the cavalry being expensive argument had merit. Then I started looking at making a unit of bloodcrushers in the 40k daemon codex. $200 retail per unit - a single army would use 3 full units a lot of the time if the cost weren't prohibitive

Bleeb bleeb bleeb.