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The old staple from 4th edition: "extra armor on everything!" Just isn't doing it for me in 5th. I took it off my BWs recently because I simply wasn't getting many stunned results to merit the huge cost of the upgrade. Extra armor was so essential in 4th that you had the price skyrocket from 5 pts standard to 10 and 15 in many cases. For what in 5th edition? A glance will be a shaken 1/2 the time, stunned 1/6, weapon 1/6, immobilized 1/6. A rhino is paying nearly half of it's overall initial point value into protecting against a 1/6 chance result. Not cool!

My Battlewagon loadout now for instance is deceptively simple:
Wagon
Rolla
Big shoota

115 pts. These are the mandatory bits and the rest can be added on a case by case basis where the value of the upgrade is heavily weighed against its use. Extra armor just doesn't cut it anymore.


And for anyone not convinced that 10 pts makes a difference, we're talking about 6-10 vehicles here, so it quickly becomes a 100 point venture to protect against the rare stunned result.

I would tend to agree with you, and toss this caution out as well. When anything optional in this game becomes "mandatory" they tend to rewrite the codex to make unattractive choices/things more attractive and make the previously "mandatory" unattractive. Look at 5th Ed SM. Commander Archetypes went up in value, Librarians and Chaplains went down. Extra Armor went up (though smoke improved to better effect + default equipment), the vehicle damage tables made the points cost for EA less attractive, but other choices more so- H/K missiles, Searchlights became free, standard, and base, Dreagnaughts got a minor but nice boost...

Transports in general were often over used in 3rd- aka Rhino Rush- and the resultant crack down made transports less attractive in 4th, until they had to revise that crackdown to make them more attractive again via mission objectives, lowered point costs, and improved utility with dedicated transports ferrying other units around.

The difference is that there is only 1 stunned result, rather than any pen hit also stunned the vehicle (in 4th edition)

I agree. Extra armour is way too expensive for so little chance of being useful, I never bother with it anymore.

I use to love the way in worked in the old ork 'dex though: 6+ save against all glancing an penetrating hits! My buggy never seemed to die!

(The looks on people's faces when I rolled a 6 AGAIN and my buggy wins the game by claiming a table quarter in the last turn (back in 3rd ed.) - ah those were the days!)

Yeah, I stopped taking it on my Dark Angels Rhinos and Razorbacks a while back. It defeats the purpose of having the cheap transports to begin with IMO.

That being said, I would probably still take it on a Land Raider. They are already such a huge investment that the 15 points is worth it to make sure they can deliver their payload.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

I prefer possession. I also do not bother with extra armor on my rhinos / land raider.

Extra armor is still worth it for rhinos in armies where it still costs 5 pts (Daemonhunters and Sisters--and Space Wolves?). It's not worth 15 points for a rhino.

In the books where its still cheap it might be worth it to take it if you have the points, but again, it got way to expensive for what it does in the newer books.

Come on. There are situation during the battle where you wished you had taken it.

Extra armour has fallen into the same area as searchlights and smoke launchers, they are used rarely but can help, only take them if you really have points to spare.

Personally i save me points and spend it on me grotz, and me nids are luckly enought not to have to worry about it

It kind of worth it on Landraiders, on a 4 or less you pretty much ignore what happened and can still move and shoot because of the Machine spirit, I wouldnt put it on anythng else though.

15pts is too much, 5pts you always take it (or maybe not, in some cases) ... 10 pts is just right. Possession is a good price at 20pts w/ the BS3.

15pts x3 you are looking at two more Plague Marines. Or whatever.

For my BW's, I still find it worth the points. My BW's arent' designed for any type of shooting platform. Therefore, I need to ensure they can get where they need to get to, which results in me taking Armor Plates and either a Deff Rolla or Reinforced Ram. I take more than one Big Shoota as I don't want any Weapon Destroyed Results to become Immobilized results.

Against Marine players, I am not seeing them spending the extra 15 points for Extra Armor. However, my opponents also spam these vehicles and expect some to not make it to their desire location.

Against the Chaos players, I see a lot more Demonic Possession. Almost every vehicle I face off against has it. Since they now can utelize their transport capabilities, I daresay it's standard in mechanized armies.

I put it on Transport-wagons but not Killkannon-wagons. I might put it on a Trukk with say Mega-armoured Nobz.

i wouldnt waste it too much on a wagon, but i would take ard case every time.
ive found tht has helped out alot more than extra armour.

'Ard Case is definately more protective. 'Ard Case you go

13" + 2" + d6" Waaagh!? + 6". Otherwise you go 13" + 13" + 2" + d6" Waaagh!? + 6". Basically not taking it is like giving one squad a free Waaagh! move.

If you have Ghaz you still get a guaranteed first turn charge if they are no farther than < 27". Not to go off topic.

Land Raiders should have it definately.
Dreadnoughts should have it too. If they are based around assault it's needed.
Imo anything tough and acts as infantry support i.e. leman russ should have it.

For Chaos, I've stopped taking extra armor entirely. Sure, there are occasions when my Rhinos get stunned. They don't happen often enough to justify the points I'd spend on extra armor for all of them. 5x15 is a good number of points that can be spent elsewhere. My Land Raider gets daemonic possession, because I no longer have a Machine Spirit, and ignoring 2/3 of glancing hits is too good to pass up.

For Marines, it's still not worth it on Rhinos/Razorbacks for me, much the same reasoning as for chaos. Even land raiders don't need it so much, since the Machine Spirit can still keep you going (albeit in a straight line).

Extra armour has fallen into the same area as searchlights and smoke launchers

Hold on there... Smoke launchers are a must have. A lot of the time they're part of the base cost, but for lists where you have to pay for them, you should. Especially for transports.

Uh, with the abundance of Dawn of War missions, and since searchlights usually cost... 1 point... you're kind of stupid if you don't put them on your long range tanks.

One thing about Rhinos and extra armor is that fact that if they are a simple transport, they aren't as huge a benefit as they used to.

Assume two cases: one rhino stunned, one mobile. Now, consider what you want the vehicle to do:

Transport a squad: clearly the mobile one is better, but the other squad still gets 2" + 6+ d6.

Launch an assault: both work equally well, as the mobile one can't move if the squad wants to assault.

Project shooting: the mobile one really wins here, with an effective 14" projection, while the stunned one has at most 8", and often less depending on where the target is relative to the doors.

keep in mind that for things like blocking shooting lanes, providing cover, tank shocking, and contesting objectives you want the armor.

So, the x-tra armor is really only useful for about half of the uses of the rhino, and then only for one sixth of all damage, and all for a ~40% increase in cost.

IMO, it's not worth it for rhinos. For landraiders and BWs that can launch assaults, I think it's nearly mandatory.

Considering the chances of getting Stunned it is not really worth it giving three Rhinos Extra Armour just so one Rhino can not be Stunned one time during the entire game. Better to buy something else like ... ANOTHER RHINO.



Or a whatever.

I'd much rather bump the cost a little and have extra armour "be" extra armour and increase the stat by +1 to all sides

hellsguardian316 wrote:I'd much rather bump the cost a little and have extra armour "be" extra armour and increase the stat by +1 to all sides

Yeah that's what I'd want for my rhinos too.

Maybe it would be too powerful. What if you could buy front armour +1 and/or side armour+1 and/or rear armour +1 for extra points? Probably make things too complicated, and open to exploitation. Could be worth trying it out with friends though, and see what difference it makes.

People complained about the Mutated Hull upgrade chaos used to have.

Poof, no more mutated hull. Or any god-specific gifts.

the_trooper wrote:I prefer possession.

I tried that, but the dang Bloodletter doesn't know how to drive a Trukk with a stickshift!

Eric

It use has just changed a bit putting it on everything is no longer the way to use it but saying that it is not worth it anymore end of story is not right either. Some vehicles that need to move should take it transports, some dreadnoughts. But I agree it is definatly not mandatory anymore.

Spellbound wrote:People complained about the Mutated Hull upgrade chaos used to have.

Poof, no more mutated hull. Or any god-specific gifts.

lol, I never complained, as annoying as it was in my friends Chaos army, I actually thought it was quite nice to see Dreads with AV13. Now the only way I can get something like that in the new SM army is by fielding a Ironclad Dread, would much rather increase my rhino's AV or be able to increase the normal dreads AV. Ah well, we can dream.

im rather angry that SM seem to get everything and get it better than CSM, even tho they are brothers. SM dread, sweet weapons and the choice of iron clad and the other one [blanking out the really bad one ^^], CSM: crazed nought with next to no options. SM, land raider with machine spirit and blessed hull and all the, plus crusader [i love them] and redeemer, CSM land raider...and thats it

Why are SM so favoured, what about the 4 gods of CSM, they are in shame compared to the light of the emperor, CSM needs to be updated [right after DE and IG]

I dont bother, its good on a close combat dreadnought and thats it, and even then I dont often bother because of the price.

You pay too much and transport rules have been changed too far. Furthermore the monkeys at GW studio are still trying to 'punish' the 'overpowered' extra armour in army lists based on feedback that is years out of date.

It is a real pity these guys cant think for themselves, or they would have realised the pendulum has swung and 15pt extra armour is overpriced.