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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 15:20:26
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I know at the time of purchase, my Honda had more domestic US content than any Ford car on the market...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20081205/ts_csm/aotherauto
By Patrik Jonsson Patrik Jonsson – Fri Dec 5, 3:00 am ET
West Point, Ga. – The US auto industry is throwing bolts, but here in Georgia's Chattahoochee Valley a South Korean car company is building a massive new manufacturing plant along the new Kia Parkway, replacing abandoned textile mills. The recently opened Korean BBQ House now vies for customers with Roger's Pit-Cooked Bar-B-Que. And in an indication of just how welcome Kia's nonunion jobs are, some 43,000 people applied for 2,600 positions – with starting wages of $17 an hour – as the plant gears up to turn out its first model next November.
The expansion of this "other" auto industry – one that's foreign-owned, nonunion, and based largely in the South – stands in stark contrast to this week's dire reports from America's own Big Three, whose CEOs laid out plans for a dramatic downsizing before traveling to Washington to plead for $34 billion in federal aid.
Two-thirds of "foreign imports" are, in fact, built in the United States in nonunion shops, where it costs at least $2,000 less in labor to build each vehicle.
Critics charge that the Japanese, Korean, and German auto companies are taking advantage of desperate communities and a longstanding distrust of unions in the South. But among people in West Point, Ga., the vision of a foreign-owned Southern car industry standing on its own two feet while Detroit teeters comes down to this: the worth of a day's work, and the role – or nonrole – of unions like the United Auto Workers (UAW).
"Workers [in the South] understand that in order for them to have a job these companies have got to make money, because if they don't, they're not going to have a job," says Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R), who represents this river city in Congress and who could be asked as soon as next week to vote on a bailout to keep Chrysler and General Motors afloat. "That's the first issue [Detroit auto executives] need to address before they come to Congress asking for a bailout or a loan or whatever it is," he says in a phone interview.
Around the South and especially here on Interstate 85 – nicknamed the "autobahn" for the prevalence of foreign-owned car plants along its stretch – the manufacture of foreign vehicles has jumped 450 percent since 1986. While the Big Three have shed more than 600,000 jobs since 1980, foreign automakers have created about 35,000 jobs in the same period.
The gap between union and nonunion compensation is big: Total benefits put union workers at $36.34 per hour compared with $25.65 per hour. The Big Three's "legacy costs," some economists say, push UAW members' total compensation much higher. That gap, moreover, figures into Southern residents' views on Detroit's worthiness to be rescued from the brink of bankruptcy.
"If you're making $60 or $70 an hour, I can see how you don't want to work for $20," says West Point barber Dewey Rayley, who reports that most of his customers look unfavorably on a federal bailout for the American auto companies. "But that's the thing: What makes you think it's worth so much just to build a car?"
The UAW, for its part, has tried to unionize the international plants in the South, to no avail. Its membership is down 17 percent from 2007, to 464,910 – the lowest since the Great Depression.
With the stakes rising, the once tough-minded union is now "a shadow of its former self," says Nelson Lichtenstein, director of the Center for the Study of Work, Labor and Democracy in Santa Barbara, Calif.
On Wednesday, UAW head Ron Gettelfinger said the union will discontinue a controversial jobs bank – a kind of private unemployment program – and allow the Big Three to postpone payments into a healthcare trust for workers. It's the second offer to reopen contract negotiations in three years.
The UAW concession "is significant and unprecedented," says Harley Shaiken, an expert on labor and the global economy at the University of California, Berkeley. "The fact that the union is willing to jettison [the job bank] shows that they want to clear the political air for a reasoned discussion on why the industry survival is important to the entire economy."
A prevalent right-to-work philosophy isn't the only reason foreign companies like Toyota have located plants in the South. There's also the proximity to a car-loving region with little mass transit and a population that totals that of the Midwest and New England combined. Moreover, the Southern autoworkers are fairly young, meaning few qualify for pensions. General Motors, for instance, supports 400,000 retirees; Toyota supports 700.
While Detroit and the UAW are locked in what Mr. Lichtenstein calls a "failed marriage," the Asian firms, in particular, have flirted effectively with a South big on states' rights and individual liberties. With different work styles and no union rules with which to comply, foreign-car companies can be more flexible and responsive to customers – though union shops get top marks on seven of eight quality and productivity standards. Unlike in the Detroit-owned plants, workers at foreign-owned facilities eat in the same cafeterias as the brass – a kind of egalitarian mind-set that fits well with Southern social graces, leaving workers few incentives to unionize.
"The auto industry has for the most part transformed the South's economy, and it's because you're empowering [workers]," says Mike Randle, editor of Southern Business and Development magazine in Mountain Brook, Ala. "If you go to any of these foreign auto plants in the South, it looks like a rural high school parking lot – just a bunch of kids. Where are these young men or women going to get a job with a year of community college [experience]? Wal-Mart? Now they're starting at $17 an hour, and we're talking about thousands and thousands of jobs."
But there are troubling implications, too. Like some of the old textile-mill magnates, a Honda plant in Alabama threatened workers with closure if they unionized, says Mr. Randle. Last year, Toyota in Georgetown, Ky, fired two workers for releasing an internal document that discussed lowering wages. The demise of one or more of the big US automakers stands to benefit the foreign companies, as would the continued weakening of the UAW, whose existence indirectly boosts nonunion wages.
Labor historians note that President Franklin Roosevelt helped to raise wages across the board to get the US out of the Great Depression. Today, they say, many conservative Democrats and Republicans from the South, like Representative Westmoreland, are lobbying for the opposite to rescue Detroit.
"If and when the UAW is destroyed, what will happen to the transplants, like the Toyota plant in Kentucky and this new Kia plant, is that these companies will start offering Wal-Mart wages," says Lichtenstein.
Even here in West Point, where a new interstate exchange the state built for Kia opens Dec. 10, not all is well. Retired textile worker Jim McKee frets that "some of the cultural changes like the [Korean] restaurants are shocking and worrying to a lot of people."
What's more, Detroit may be a competitor, but most people in West Point drive Buicks, Chevys, and Fords. "I'm a Buick man, but, who knows, I might be buying a Kia soon," says Harris Nader, who owns an "old-time" music shop in West Point.
And not everyone blames the unions. The problem is "that the executives with these companies made mistakes down through the years in not producing fuel-efficient cars, not what the union was being paid," says Don Gilliam, a West Point city councilor. "Now it's essential that you give them help, not because of their mistakes, but for the sake of the general economy."
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 15:51:20
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Fighter Pilot
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I am fully against the bail out of the Big Three! They can go into bankruptcy just like the airlines. People still fly! In that bankruptcy they can change their business to be more efficient. A bail out is a way how "weathering the storm" so that can stay doing business as usual at a future date!
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"Anything but a 1... ... dang." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 18:37:30
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Of course your Honda won't have too many of those American parts once all the suppliers, and distributors, start going under after the Big 3 collapse.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 18:45:58
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Sure they will. They aren't Big Three suppliers.
Argh I have to actually get some work done now. Later...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/05 18:46:29
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 18:53:14
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:Sure they will. They aren't Big Three suppliers.
Argh I have to actually get some work done now. Later...
See, that isn't true, because very few suppliers are exclusive to any one company. Many of them send parts to the Big 3 while performing similar services for Honda, Toyota, and Nissan.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 21:10:16
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..
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We bought a Hyundai Tuscon SUV last week.
Made in Korea, exported to Australia.
$5000 cheaper than the next comparable SUV.
The Australian car making industry has been teetering on the edge for years, and the govt has kept bailing them out.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/12/05 21:11:25
2025: Games Played:8/Models Bought:162/Sold:169/Painted:127
2024: Games Played:6/Models Bought:393/Sold:519/Painted: 207
2023: Games Played:0/Models Bought:287/Sold:0/Painted: 203
2020-2022: Games Played:42/Models Bought:1271/Sold:631/Painted:442
2016-19: Games Played:369/Models Bought:772/Sold:378/ Painted:268
2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 21:14:10
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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[DCM]
.. .-.. .-.. ..- -- .. -. .- - ..
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The only way the big 3 US makers will survive long term is to rip up the union contracts and rehire st the rates that the foreign companies are paying (Toyota was the most notable beneficiary of cheaper non union labour pre-financial crisis).
Something the democrat law makers don't want to happen, thanks to union power within the party.
But if the car makers fail, the democrats can kiss Michigan goodbye for the next 40 years.
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2025: Games Played:8/Models Bought:162/Sold:169/Painted:127
2024: Games Played:6/Models Bought:393/Sold:519/Painted: 207
2023: Games Played:0/Models Bought:287/Sold:0/Painted: 203
2020-2022: Games Played:42/Models Bought:1271/Sold:631/Painted:442
2016-19: Games Played:369/Models Bought:772/Sold:378/ Painted:268
2012-15: Games Played:412/Models Bought: 1163/Sold:730/Painted:436 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 21:31:55
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Waaagh_Gonads wrote:The only way the big 3 US makers will survive long term is to rip up the union contracts and rehire st the rates that the foreign companies are paying (Toyota was the most notable beneficiary of cheaper non union labour pre-financial crisis).
Something the democrat law makers don't want to happen, thanks to union power within the party.
But if the car makers fail, the democrats can kiss Michigan goodbye for the next 40 years.
Nah, it isn't the wages of the current workers, those are pretty consistent across the board. Its the cost of health care with respect to the aging members of the union.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/05 23:00:09
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Did you read that bit about Toyota US having 700 pensioners and GM having 400,000?
That's the story, right there. (I'm not sure I believe those figures, TBH.)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/06 16:25:42
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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I *think* I'm starting to understand America's distaste for Unions.
Here in Britain, they are primarily a defence for the little man against the Corporate powers. They fight unfair dismissal, and argue for fairer treatment between the blue and white collars etc. They ensure Pensions are fair and equal, and generally (but not always) do a good job.
But in America, it seems as if they have a chip on their shoulder about many things and are less about equality, and more about getting even, if you see what I mean.
Of course, I'm going on limited sources here, so please feel free to enlighten me further if you think my knowledge is missing bits!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/06 23:50:35
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I *think* I'm starting to understand America's distaste for Unions.
Here in Britain, they are primarily a defence for the little man against the Corporate powers. They fight unfair dismissal, and argue for fairer treatment between the blue and white collars etc. They ensure Pensions are fair and equal, and generally (but not always) do a good job.
But in America, it seems as if they have a chip on their shoulder about many things and are less about equality, and more about getting even, if you see what I mean.
Of course, I'm going on limited sources here, so please feel free to enlighten me further if you think my knowledge is missing bits!
IRC the unions are getting the blame for the big 3s problem but it really works out to how the big 3 had set up the pension funds for their workers back in the day. For a very long time The Big three used the pension fund as a cash reserve. They ignored the money that they needed to set aside for the pension to increase profits at the time. This was combined with a concession that they made way back in the day to pay a large percentage of the medical insurance for retired workers, which was also ignored until far too late.
You can't enjoy a good quality of life in the US without medical insurance so the workers knew that they needed to insure that their insurance continued beyond retirement so it was a good move on their part, but, and this is a big but no one foresaw how much insurance costs would balloon in later days. Since the companies had put off creating a trust fund to pay for these ( in favour of the shorter term profits) we arrive at the current situation. The companies are going bankrupt trying to pay for these debts that they owe, and it's not helped by no longer having the protection of the autopact and other trade protections to keep expensive inferior vehicles on the roads of North America.
It's not the unions fault these companies are going under. The unions did their job. The companies did not plan for bad weather.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 00:34:21
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka
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Yeah, it is, like in the banking industry, largely the fault of the executive class, who have made exceedingly poor decisions over a long period of time, while pocketing ridiculous amounts of "compensation", and now that the consequences of their actions are coming to term, they're expecting the public to save them.
Let 'em fail. The economy will recover.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 01:40:35
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Redbeard wrote:Yeah, it is, like in the banking industry, largely the fault of the executive class, who have made exceedingly poor decisions over a long period of time, while pocketing ridiculous amounts of "compensation", and now that the consequences of their actions are coming to term, they're expecting the public to save them.
Actually, they're asking (not expecting) the public to save the companies, and those people which they employ.
Redbeard wrote:
Let 'em fail. The economy will recover.
With that kind of insightful justification its hard not to agree. :S
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 01:51:33
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Redbeard wrote:Yeah, it is, like in the banking industry, largely the fault of the executive class, who have made exceedingly poor decisions over a long period of time, while pocketing ridiculous amounts of "compensation", and now that the consequences of their actions are coming to term, they're expecting the public to save them.
Let 'em fail. The economy will recover.
In all honesty it is possible the region could never recover (in a timeframe we would be around to see). The truth is there simply is not enough data to support your point of view. The people who are supported by that industry are millions between Canada and the United states and if it collapses both nations will be in the middle of the biggest economic and social experiment in the Western world. (China ftw on the biggest economic and social experiment ).
Regardless of whose fault, it could cripple North America if it fails.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 01:53:29
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Kilkrazy wrote:Did you read that bit about Toyota US having 700 pensioners and GM having 400,000?
That's the story, right there. (I'm not sure I believe those figures, TBH.)
Sounds about right Toyota's been operating in the states for about 25 years so pepople from thier early plants are just beginning to retire. GM has been operating for generations and 400000 sounds about right for two generations worth of employees.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 02:15:19
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Murfreesboro, TN
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Not to mention it sounds like GM has a lot more invested in America and its workers than a foreign company that can cut-n-run if things get too hairy and take its production elsewhere.
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As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.
But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.
Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 02:28:57
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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lord_sutekh wrote:Not to mention it sounds like GM has a lot more invested in America and its workers than a foreign company that can cut-n-run if things get too hairy and take its production elsewhere.
Which to be fair is only because of trade barriers and the relative expense of setting up the industry in another location.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/12/07 02:37:53
Subject: The Other US Auto Industry
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Redbeard wrote:Yeah, it is, like in the banking industry, largely the fault of the executive class, who have made exceedingly poor decisions over a long period of time, while pocketing ridiculous amounts of "compensation", and now that the consequences of their actions are coming to term, they're expecting the public to save them.
Let 'em fail. The economy will recover.
Yeah, over a long enough period the economy will recover. System shocks work through the system and depress short and medium term demand, but ultimately resources will be reallocated and the economy will return to it's long term stable rate.
Which is great, as long as we're looking at numbers on a graph. When you start looking at people getting evicted, people losing healthcare that would have been provided by their now bankrupt employer, it becomes a lot more complicated.
There's also the argument that an economy grows best when aggregate demand is kept stable, and by allowing the full brunt of this impact to hit the economy you allow resource allocation into all the wrong areas, and that will make recovery that much harder in the long term.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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