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Just as the title says? Your views on the usability of the unit.

I've seen a lot of people down playing them while others like them. I know where I stand on this one but would like to hear what everyone elses thoughts are and why.

Well, my mech Eldar army usually contains one unit of Storm Guardians with flamers plus a Warlock with destructor, mounted in a Serpent.
But never leave it unsupported. In a coordinated strike this unit is really useful.

How do you support this unit? HS,Wave serp, another shooty squad, or elite HtH units?
I know what I've been doing but don't want to influence other posters this early in the thread.

focusedfire wrote:How do you support this unit? HS,Wave serp, another shooty squad, or elite HtH units?
I know what I've been doing but don't want to influence other posters this early in the thread.

Well, I usually field a Seer Council in a Serpent and two DA squads in Serpents; three troop units in total..

I think they the only time they make up there points is in 3+ groups of 10 supported by a avatar.

Clthomps wrote:I think they the only time they make up there points is in 3+ groups of 10 supported by a avatar.

Guardian Defenders would be my choice for accompanying an Avatar.
Guardians are very vulnerable to blast weapons so that I protect them by a Serpent.
Its a cheap unit that can fill gaps in the combat line.

They're one of those units that looks a bit rubbish on paper but seems to overperform in reality. I've taken them in a WS quite a few times now because:

a) It's a scoring unit (and by god do us eldar players need them).
b) They're cheap.
c) Almost everyone thinks they're rubbish and ignores them while they craftily steal objectives or tie up depleted units for a couple of turns.

I have moved this thread to the tactics forum.

Guardains + eml sitting outside a dedicated TL-EML + shuriken cannon serpent. Engage at range and stay at range. Hope in and storm off with star engines is anything gets too close or the guardains are taking too many casulties.

In response to the OP, A completely opposed tactic is the aforementione 2x flamers + destructor all mounted in a similiar equipped wave serpent for close ranged flamey death. 12 models + a warlocks LD should be able to stay in the fights (morale checks wise) for a decent amount of time.

I don't play eldar but the times I have gone up against this unit is does far better than what most people would expect. One big squad in a serpent with a warlock is enough. Flamers and destructor really help them when charging a big/resilient unit.

G

How about a unit of 10 led by a warlock and accompanied by a Banshee-mask-wearing Autarch? That is potentially quite powerful on the charge, especially against low LD opposition.

That's not a bad idea Fifty. 'Specially if you give the Autarch a power weapon My only problem with it is that guardians should always be supporting something bigger and nastier like an Avatar or some harlequins. Not sure i'd want to attach my HQ to something that will die easily if alot of attention gets focussed on it.

EDIT: Amusingly, that was my fiftieth post and i'm now a 'storming storm guardian'. Clearly my fate runes are functioning at maximum efficiency

I second JB's opinion that the Autarch can eventually be in danger when she's joining Storm Guardians.

What I did in the GT final was to let Yriel ride with the Storm Guardians. After disembarking he took on a squad separately.

I have been using Stormies ever since 3rd in my Ulthwe force (back when they didn't amke the models and you had to convert them yourself) and have always found them useful. Sure, they are not the "W5 I5 for only 8 points" powerhouses that they used to be in the Ulthwe list, but they are still great.

Now I use them like most folks...2 flamers + Warlock destructor in a WS. They are a cheap scoring unit that can take objectives EASILY in the end game. 2 flamers + Destuctor on a Doomed unit is always fun!

As for support? If I think they need it, I also have a Council in WS, Dragons in a WS, and Jetbikes that can lend a hand. But, unless their WS is shot out from underneath them, I never need to support them. They either sit in the WS and take an objective that way, or hop out and burn the enemy on the objective on turn 5, thus taking it from them.

Kilkrazy wrote:I have moved this thread to the tactics forum.

off-topic
@Kk-Thank you Kilkrazy, I flipped a coin on discussions vs tactics because there was room for a lot of non-tactic based opinion in the format I set for this thread.



On-topic

Some very interesting ideas here. especially on timing. I feel that the Eldar are the most tempo sensitive army in 40K.

Now I've been running 2 squads of storms in an ulthwe themed list and I like the results so far. I'm running enhanced locks and one flamer and one fusion squad both in Wave Serps.(sometimes I'll run them both with the same special weapons). My other troop is a 9 strong Jetbike squad thats led by a Jetseer w/guide for the 3 shuricannons. Rest of the army is doom/guideseer council in a falcon, 2 prisms, and 2 shuricannon vypers that provide cover for the jetbikes.

I'm finding that when backed up by a doom/guideseer w/council the storms are really effective as long as you bring tough squads(SM) down to about half strength.

focusedfire wrote:
Some very interesting ideas here. especially on timing. I feel that the Eldar are the most tempo sensitive army in 40K.

QFT

As one of the few eldar units that have access to melta weapons they make a decent objective holder against last turn tank shocks. Cheap enough that if they don't see too much action you haven't wasted a lot of points.

kh

focusedfire wrote:I'm finding that when backed up by a doom/guideseer w/council the storms are really effective as long as you bring tough squads(SM) down to about half strength.

You might want to take a gander at this thread. It's got me rethinking my farseer usage a bit - being unable to guide the contents of waveserpents from afar is going to force reconsideration.

Do not use fusion guns with Storm Guard. In doing so you cross their functions, making them do something they're not good at (vehicle hunting) while distracting from their strength (tons of low-strength attacks and multiple cheap flamers). If you want to defend vs. tank shock, the Warlock's witchblade is plenty of protection- skip the fusion guns. If you're hunting vehicles, use Dragons, Warlocks, even Spiders or bikes- but not Guardians. End of story.

As others have said here, Storm Guard make a great cheap objective-grabber, especially in mech setups where the rest of your infantry are Aspect warriors (busy doing useful Aspect Warrior tasks). The 3-flamer configuration is good at clearing objectives, which you can then occupy and hunker down. Being Guardians, they're fragile- but in mech all your troops are usually fragile, and you'll be depositing them around the objectives at the last moment if you're good.

I wouldn't run Storm Guard in a footslogging list if I had a choice, even with the Avatar. Better to use Defenders as others have said, getting those heavy weapons in there.

Finally, with the advent of a very nasty-looking IG codex Storm Guard may eclipse Scorpions as the Guard-killer of choice. AP3 hellguns could mean some very dead Scorps after they slaughter one Guard unit. Stormies will still kick IG butt, but when charging multiple units they will probably take 2 combat turns to do so (and be much less of a loss if they do get rapid-fired to death than Scorps would be).

I've used the fusions with some success to kill certain annoying multi-wound creatures. Also they pay for themselves in dead SMs. It really depends on how casual of a game it is. If its tourny then a squad of each.

I don't think the guide ruling is as bad as everyone thinks. Seriously, who are they going to shoot while still in the vehicle? I'm pretty sure you can unload them befor casting guide.

Snavock, I like your point about the Guard killers. I think a Dire Avenger Storm Guard list would really do a number in this situation.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232224.page

This thread discusses storm guardians in a mech list with flamers and a destructor-lock.

focusedfire wrote:I don't think the guide ruling is as bad as everyone thinks. Seriously, who are they going to shoot while still in the vehicle? I'm pretty sure you can unload them befor casting guide.

Eldar psychic powers are used at the beginning of the turn, before any units move. No, you can't get out of your waveserpent first.

I've never seen my storm guardians do anything but die in an assault, even when outnumbering their opponents 2:1. When I feel like I have to assault with a guardian unit I go with defenders.

Storm guardians: 1 Shuriken shot S4 AP5 3 CC attacks S3 (on the charge)

Guardian Defender: 2 Shuriken Shots S4 AP5 2 CC attacks S3 (on the charge).

In essence you trade a S3 no AP attack for a S4 AP5 attack. Since storm guardians are about the only assault troops without grenades, and can't get help from the autarch anymore, then charging anyone in cover is useless.

The only thing Stormies have going for them is the ability to take flamers (1 of only 4 units in the Eldar army by my qhuck mental tally). Otherwise, the defender squad is always better.

(unless ironically you GET charged in which case the assault unit was better . With the change to pistols always being 1 shot in 5th the defenders are always better now).

Oh, there is another thing that makes storm guardians useful...they look cool. That's why I keep trying to use mine, and they still don't do as well as Defenders.

hehe...none of us who use Stormies ever said to assault anything with them...

We said that we take them for 2 flamers + destructor in a WS. They are cheap, can score, can hide in a WS, and can hop out and fry stuff in the late game..even better with Doom!

I can see that working alerian, but the Defenders can have the same warlock, and at that range they are in shuricat range too, doubling the shots from the rest of the unit vs the pistols. Add in a cheap shuriken cannon and you have a decent unit, especially if the farseer rides along to guide/doom.

Part of this may be a side effect of the meta game around here. I've never seen an opponent run units in the close proximity I've seen in batrep pictures here and on other sites. They are almost always at max coherency range. That really cuts back on the effectiveness of flamers (2-3 under the template vs 5-7). If you play in an area where your opponents run around packed together, then the 2 flamers are probably better.

DOUBLE POST!

5th edition tank shock works really well for bunching up units.

@Savnock - I don't see fusions guns as mixing their utility. I use mine to grab and hold an objective, usually in my backcourt. They don't go out to hunt the tanks, I have FD or WG for that, if the tanks are that threatening...

The Witchblade is nice on vehicle but in a Death or Glory attack the front AV is used so usually a str 9 vs 12+ AV compared to the str 8+2d6 auto with the +1 to the damage table. If the guardian dies than on my turn I get the witchblade on the rear armour (+another melta attack).

I don't really send my guardians out by themselves. I place the objective in some cover and if my opponent wants to deal with them, it'll cost some long range fire or an assault unit. Long range fire? I go to ground for the 3+ save. Assaulting units? I run WS and outflanking scorpions so the guardians have some company.

Basically, I use the Storms the same as my grots. Just the Storms can't be pushed of my objective as easily.

YMMV

cheers!

Kyrolon wrote:I can see that working alerian, but the Defenders can have the same warlock, and at that range they are in shuricat range too, doubling the shots from the rest of the unit vs the pistols. Add in a cheap shuriken cannon and you have a decent unit, especially if the farseer rides along to guide/doom.

But...Defenders have to roll to hit, and don't ignore cover

Also, a cheap Gaurdian unit isn't the place that you usally want your Farseer. There are far better places for him to be.

Don't get me wrong, Defenders have a purpose, and that is, dare I say....defending. However, if you are trying to take objectives out of a WS, Stormies beat Defenders hands down. Aslo, as it has been mentioned, if you use your WS to tank shock the unit together, then Stormies can fry them easily.

Janthkin wrote:

focusedfire wrote:I don't think the guide ruling is as bad as everyone thinks. Seriously, who are they going to shoot while still in the vehicle? I'm pretty sure you can unload them befor casting guide.

Eldar psychic powers are used at the beginning of the turn, before any units move. No, you can't get out of your waveserpent first.

Thanks for pointing that out. The faq seems counter intuitive to the first paragraph of the Eldar psycher rules, but its an annoyance not so much of an army killer.