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Mr. Yakface : see the embarked unit psyker casting answer..... ... timing eh ? !

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233290.page

I'm glad they made that call. I was getting tired of it.

AffliKtion wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233290.page

I'm glad they made that call. I was getting tired of it.

Actually, its a horrific ruling when you stop and think about it long enough because it isn't clearly worded.

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit being transported’.

What does "used on a unit" mean exactly? Target the unit? Or does that mean no psychic powers at all affect the unit?

If the latter is the case it means that units firing out of a vehicle (or enclosed building, presumably) can ignore Veil of Tears. It also means psykers can sit inside a vehicle casting psychic powers while ignoring negative Ld modifiers from Tyranid Psychic Scream, etc, etc, etc.

Either way, it is a poorly thought out Q&A IMHO.

??? It means exactly as it sounds. You cannot use any powers on embarked units.

As for the second part, I agree with you. They need to add either 'all' or 'friendly' for clarification, but it sounds like if friendly powers can't, then enemy powers can't either.

I've always been ok with drive-bys with psychic powers, but embarked units benefitting was a stretch. So now they neither benefit nor suffer.

Just take the FAQ's own wording, 'for simplicity's sake'.
Now all we have to do is find this simplicity person and beat them to death.

Veil of Tears though, isn't being used on the Transported Unit. It's being used on the Harlequins.

I cannot target a unit in a Transport, as I cannot see it. But a Psyker in the Transport, and therefore attached to the unit, can.

Where's the problem?

Yakface has a problem with this if it is only limited to friendly psychic powers or to all psychic powers.

As a tyranid player, he wants to know if his Psychic Scream ability is affected or not.


I don't know anything about veil of tears so I didn't get into it. If someone would be so kind as to explain what Yakface is referring to?

Interesting ruling about a unit holding multiple objectives. They believe it doesn't happen often. I do it every time I get to set up objectives. If I have 3 objectives, they end up in a triangle formation near the center of the table just over 12" apart from each other. Then, a big unit of Boyz can get between them and hold all 3.

Am I the only one doing this? GW seems to think it's not a common occurrance.

Expect an FAQ for the FAQ any year now...

Thought you were meant to scatter the objectives?

That, and most people prefer not to exploit the rules that way.

AffliKtion wrote:
Just take the FAQ's own wording, 'for simplicity's sake'.
Now all we have to do is find this simplicity person and beat them to death.

That's the problem, its only simple at first glance. The more strange situations you think of the worse it gets.

Psykers can still use psychic powers when inside a vehicle, and they can cast psychic powers out of their vehicle if the powers don't require LOS (and they even get to measure from the edge of the vehicle) and if the vehicle has a fire point you can even use powers that require a LOS. However now psychic powers can no longer affect psykers inside a vehicle (depending on how you interpret "used on a unit"), so that means you can get away from enemy powers, like Hammer of the Witches (which just makes D6 enemy psykers pass a Ld test or suffer perils of the warp), by hiding in a vehicle. Facing Tyranids with a bunch of Psychic Screams and you're afraid you won't be able to have your psyker cast their powers? Hop 'em in a vehicle, cause now apparently every vehicle is lined with Aegis material.

And the worst of all is Veil of Tears, which forces enemy units wishing to fire on Harlequins to pass a 2D6x6 spotting distance roll to see them. If a unit is standing in the open they have to pass that roll to shoot at 'em, the vehicle itself has to pass that roll to shoot at 'em, but if the squad hops inside that vehicle and fires at the Harlequins now they don't have to roll! Hey, that makes sense!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Veil of Tears though, isn't being used on the Transported Unit. It's being used on the Harlequins.

I cannot target a unit in a Transport, as I cannot see it. But a Psyker in the Transport, and therefore attached to the unit, can.

Where's the problem?

But there is no basis to claim that. Veil of Tears is a persistent power that affects any enemy unit shooting at the Harlequins. You have no more basis to say that the power is "used" on the Harlequins any more than someone else can say it is "used" on any enemy unit that shoots at them. That's the whole problem with the "used" terminology, we have no idea what it actually means.


What I don't care for about this ruling is that it absolutely changed the rules, something they said they wanted to stay away from with their 'FAQ' answers (as opposed to the Errata). And worse, with psychic powers being able to be used OUT of vehicles but now not INTO vehicles you create a bunch of strange situations where (some) vehicles (and presumably enclosed buildings too) have become the safest place to keep your psykers, which is kind of lame IMHO.

It does make you ponder how they come about these FAQ submissions. Such as who gives the call for another update, how much is going to be addressed, who does it, and how much time they spend. It all seems scattershot these days.

yakface wrote:And the worst of all is Veil of Tears, which forces enemy units wishing to fire on Harlequins to pass a 2D6x6 spotting distance roll to see them. If a unit is standing in the open they have to pass that roll to shoot at 'em, the vehicle itself has to pass that roll to shoot at 'em, but if the squad hops inside that vehicle and fires at the Harlequins now they don't have to roll! Hey, that makes sense!

Huh?

How is the enemy shooting at the Harlequins? They're Embarked, which means that the Harlequins cannot be targeted at all, Tears or no Tears.

What Tears does for an Embarked unit is give them spotting distance if the Transport gets blown up.

I don't see how this is complicated at all.

He means if they are using fire points to shoot out of a vehicle when embarked.

This ruling otherwise means that a unit of guardsmen stod next to a chimera have to roll to see the 'quins, but the same unit embarked in the chimera are not affected by the power so don't have to roll.


I think the intent is closer to what Mad Doc has been pushing for, but that isn't what they've written unless they clarify the veil of tears/similar powers.

John, The Imperium has these things called top hatches and Orks have opentopped vehicles. Even though they are sticking their heads out to shoot they're still in the vehicle.

I see yakfaces point in this and I, personally belive it is contradictory to the firwst paragraph of the Eldars psychic powers rules in their codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

yakface wrote:And the worst of all is Veil of Tears, which forces enemy units wishing to fire on Harlequins to pass a 2D6x6 spotting distance roll to see them. If a unit is standing in the open they have to pass that roll to shoot at 'em, the vehicle itself has to pass that roll to shoot at 'em, but if the squad hops inside that vehicle and fires at the Harlequins now they don't have to roll! Hey, that makes sense!

Huh?

How is the enemy shooting at the Harlequins? They're Embarked, which means that the Harlequins cannot be targeted at all, Tears or no Tears.

What Tears does for an Embarked unit is give them spotting distance if the Transport gets blown up.

I don't see how this is complicated at all.

You have the situation confused. The Harlies are not embarked they are out in the open. The point is, a unit also out in the open shooting the Harlies need to take the Veil test. That same unit, embarked in a Rhino for example, does not have to take the Veil test when shooting the Harlies because the Veil cannot affect them while they are embarked.

Chimera lasguns just got slightly better. They are fired by the embarked unit, separately from the Chimera itself.

When WHFB 6ed came out, didn't they void all the other army books but have skeleton lists in the BRB until the army books came out?

I realize WHFB is not 40k, but it seems with all the changes they make(or change on a whim), it would be simpler to start from the starting army box set (orks/SM) and build from there?

Uriels_Flame wrote:When WHFB 6ed came out, didn't they void all the other army books but have skeleton lists in the BRB until the army books came out?

I realize WHFB is not 40k, but it seems with all the changes they make(or change on a whim), it would be simpler to start from the starting army box set (orks/SM) and build from there?

I seem to recall not needing my 2nd ed 40k codex once 3rd ed. was released, but that was a while ago and I can't quite remember. However, I don't remember waiting for codices back then either.

Specs wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:When WHFB 6ed came out, didn't they void all the other army books but have skeleton lists in the BRB until the army books came out?

I realize WHFB is not 40k, but it seems with all the changes they make(or change on a whim), it would be simpler to start from the starting army box set (orks/SM) and build from there?

I seem to recall not needing my 2nd ed 40k codex once 3rd ed. was released, but that was a while ago and I can't quite remember. However, I don't remember waiting for codices back then either.

Yes they hit the reset button on the transition to 3rd edition. The 3rd ed BRB had rules for the basic units from all armies listed in it.

kadun wrote:That same unit, embarked in a Rhino for example, does not have to take the Veil test when shooting the Harlies because the Veil cannot affect them while they are embarked.

Anyone who actually tried to enforced this is a failure at life.

Tears isn't being 'used on' the embarked troops, the fact that it might affect them isn't what the FAQ covers.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

kadun wrote:That same unit, embarked in a Rhino for example, does not have to take the Veil test when shooting the Harlies because the Veil cannot affect them while they are embarked.

Anyone who actually tried to enforced this is a failure at life.

Tears isn't being 'used on' the embarked troops, the fact that it might affect them isn't what the FAQ covers.

that's not the point. The point is that the FAQ, which tried to clear up language, is in itself very vague and unclear. Rules occasionally require common sense to interpret, but adding a clarification that in itself can lead to ridiculous arguments is poor drafting.

Polonius wrote:

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

kadun wrote:That same unit, embarked in a Rhino for example, does not have to take the Veil test when shooting the Harlies because the Veil cannot affect them while they are embarked.

Anyone who actually tried to enforced this is a failure at life.

Tears isn't being 'used on' the embarked troops, the fact that it might affect them isn't what the FAQ covers.

that's not the point. The point is that the FAQ, which tried to clear up language, is in itself very vague and unclear. Rules occasionally require common sense to interpret, but adding a clarification that in itself can lead to ridiculous arguments is poor drafting.

English is a very unclear and vague language. There's a reason why scientists prefer mathematics.....

The only issues that I see are the ones raised by somebody who's working on a FAQ that superceeds GW's because of apparent short comings on their part. Do you think he might be a bit biased?

BigToof wrote:
English is a very unclear and vague language. There's a reason why scientists prefer mathematics.....

I... I don't even know what to say to this.

The only issues that I see are the ones raised by somebody who's working on a FAQ that superceeds GW's because of apparent short comings on their part. Do you think he might be a bit biased?

No.

I think Yak is frustrated because they finally answer a question but the answer is ambiguous and raises more questions.

But hey, it's probably simpler for your brain to handle that he must just simply be biased so whatever.

Yad wrote:

You have the situation confused. The Harlies are not embarked they are out in the open. The point is, a unit also out in the open shooting the Harlies need to take the Veil test. That same unit, embarked in a Rhino for example, does not have to take the Veil test when shooting the Harlies because the Veil cannot affect them while they are embarked.

This certainly is not intended as a personal attack, but I think what you (and Yak) have asserted regarding this FAQ topic is just plain wrong. The Veil situation in regards to embarked troops is, in my mind, a question of affect versus effect. The unit affected by Veil is the Harly, the unit effected by the Veil is the embarked squad. Veil affects the harlequins which in turn effects those squads trying to shoot at them. This may seem like I'm splitting hairs here, and I imagine you would consider my explanation to be nonsensical as well , but I don't believe that Veil directly targets units embarked in a transport (open or otherwise).

(I'm having flashbacks of the "Siren vs. Grey Knights" debate of not nearly enough years ago.)

There's a whole bunch of interesting "affect vs. effect" discussion that we could go into here, but it's irrelevant - all we have from GW is that Pyschic Powers cannot be used on a unit embarked on a transport.

Life would be "simpler" if they had used a defined game term (e.g., target?), instead of "used." "Used" is a lovely, broad, and ambiguous term, and doesn't tell us whether a transported unit can suffer the effects of a psychic power, if the effect of a pyschic power is to affect units (targeted or otherwise) within a given area.

I'm also not wild about GW backtracking a bit in how they treat squads in transports. This ruling is call back to 4th editions rule that embarked units were in some mystical limbo and not on the table.