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Ran a tournament. Good times had by all. Got to talking with someone else after it, and we started to wonder that ya know, the guy who won really seemed to have a lot of stuff in his list. Put what I know he had in Army Builder, and game up at least 200 points over the limit. More than just a minor glitch. He's already spent the prize credit.

Thoughts and opinions?

It's the organizer's job to spot things like that, before awards are given out.

Aduro wrote:Ran a tournament. Good times had by all. Got to talking with someone else after it, and we started to wonder that ya know, the guy who won really seemed to have a lot of stuff in his list. Put what I know he had in Army Builder, and game up at least 200 points over the limit. More than just a minor glitch. He's already spent the prize credit.

Thoughts and opinions?

This is why as a Tourney Organizer, you have to demand well written or typed, non-shorthand, fully pointed out lists from your attendees. If they refuse, they can't play(especially as it's now part of the rules that you have to supply such an army list to your opponents if asked, unlike 3rd ed, where you could actually refuse to show your list and the rule book backed you up on that). This makes sure you can check to make sure no one's over(whether intentional or accidental) or too much under or playing illegal lists(I've seen newer players attempting to play in RTTs with 3 HQs and/or 1 Troop choice because that's how he and his friends played) and address it.

It's too late now, but learn from this and check lists next time, don't just assume everyone's list is legal.

Having a laptop w/ software for checking at the tournament is something I've seen a lot of people do. Because, even something that looks like it came from Army builder can be tweaked...

I remember playing a tourney game in Orlando a couple years ago... I played a Nidz player whose list was 400+ points over.

G

Is it the norm in the US/UK to have players submit lists prior to the event for legality?

Certainly it occurs at 99% of all Australasian tournaments.

On the day, as TO, I run my eye across all the lists playing on top table to ensure that they have what was checked prior.

Never seen a problem in 8-9 years of running events - except as a player at the UKGT in 2005. Here lists weren't checked prior and a player on Table 3 had list 100 pts over that was found in Rnd 6. The result was all prior opponents received 20-0s and that managed to knock 4 people out of the Top 10 after they were leap-frogged.

One of the many reasons I use army builder and ask for lists myself.

It's too late now. He won, nobody caught it, and it's far too late to change anything.

What you need is to hire a fast counting Mentat, I believe they're called "accountants" in this
time period. Their job is to scour the aisles to look for army list discrepancies, and then collect
money from the perpetrators in order to finagle an overly complex system to disguise the
illegal list. Some day, long after this "accountant" has been fired, his firm will safely release the
paperwork behind these toxic assets as a show of "good faith."

Instead of mirroring out current financial system, why not dreadsock?

I mean, I've been there. i set up at the final table of a single elimination, tournament of champions style event. It was me vs my opponent for the prize (a mace windu force effects lightsabre) and year's worth of bragging rights. I look over his list (hand written on a few pages of loose leaf), and after I set up, i walk away to let him set up.

I return and look over his deployment, and ask what those ten marines were. He says "sternguard with combi meltas" I look at him, and ask "were they on your roster?"

Turns out, the guy had played them all day without paying for them. I'm still not sure he knew what he was doing, although I think he probably did. he was DQ'd immediatly, and I played the player who lost to him in the second round. I won the lightsabre, btw.

It is a best practice for the TO to check all army lists ahead of time. Cheaters can still find means to field more. I always love the magic wargear that suddenly comes out of the blue at the most opportune time. I don't get worked about it like I used to but I will ask to check their army list if the model is not WYSIWYG. TOs reviewing army lists ahead of time helps set the tone for the type of gaming environment you wish to project.

G

Without being too critical, IMHO you as the TO screwed up.
You always check the lists BEFORE the tourny starts, period.
Then you check each army during the tournament to ensure that what is on the list is what is actually on the table.

Some players are just dumb when it comes to counting up points and a few are just plain cheaters who will do anything to win. As TO it is your job to catch both.

Where I play we have to email the lists we are going to play a week in advance so they can be checked and we are told to bring at least 2 copies of it on the day of so or oppants can look over it durring the game

PS sorry about spelling

This assumes you own the store or can convince the owner that it is the right thing to do.
--Ban the guy unless he pays back what he stole, apologizes and hands over goods to the other top players or some other such agreement. Yes you shoulda caught the guy but you have the right to refuse service. I don't knwo if there are legal ramifications for the above though (ie asking/demanding repayment may not be legal I guess)
--Apologize to the tournament goers.
--Try and make it up to the guys who attended with something of value to say sorry -- refund, free pass to a future tournament. Discount. something maybe for the #2 guy (use your discretion for all of this).
--For future, get army builder and check lists. Make this known as the policy from now on.

I run tournaments from time to time and game with folks I feel like I can trust. Even still I have decided awhile back that in future tournaments I'll be checking lists against army builder. You just never know, mistakes happen and having found some newbie mistakes on a list when playing as the ringer, I realized it was important.. I feel for you man, tough place to be in.

wilsmire wrote:Where I play we have to email the lists we are going to play a week in advance so they can be checked and we are told to bring at least 2 copies of it on the day of so or oppants can look over it durring the game

PS sorry about spelling

spelling? It looks good other then durring. its during. Use mozilla it has a spell checker built in. I know because normally Ill murder words until i saw screw it and right click it lol.

That sucks. I cant stand cheaters. Thats mainly why I play in my own group. I severely dislike being cheated. It makes my blood boil lol

First rule of tournaments, assume everyone is cheating.

Techboss wrote:First rule of tournaments, assume everyone is cheating.

Yea. Makes me want to go out and start playing in them right away!

Techboss wrote:First rule of LIFE, assume everyone is cheating.

Corrected your typo

Trust No one. Believe nothing.

First words from my first professor in law school.

Frankly, after the tournament is much too late to be figuring this out. This should have been caught before the prizes were handed out.

Learn from it but move on, and for God's sake the next time you run an event get the army lists before the thing starts and check them out. Have a roving judge check to make sure what's on the table is what the lists says should be.

Frazzled wrote:

Trust No one. Believe nothing.

First words from my first professor in law school.

Dude, Fox Mulder was your law professor?

Dude...that predates X files.

Didn't he always say the truth is out there or some such. I didn't watch the show much after I realized the aliens were never going to bite his head off.

Yeah, your tour as TO=FAIL. Sorry homes, but it's true. Add my voice to the choir singing about checking lists before the tourney.

It's never too late to take the cheater aside privately and give him a strong warning.

Also about using AB as a check - it is a great tool but people can modify it's ruleset so it's best to re-enter each list yourself to catch these cheats.

G

Get the lists submitted beforehand, and check them against their relevant books.

Seeing as it was held in a shop, I am of course assuming you have ready access to them!

Cannot go wrong that way.

Whenever I run a tournament, getting all the lists before the tournament is pretty much impossible. But collecting a list as people sign-in, then verifying the lists in round 1 is a definite.

Centurian99 wrote:Whenever I run a tournament, getting all the lists before the tournament is pretty much impossible. But collecting a list as people sign-in, then verifying the lists in round 1 is a definite.

Why is that? I would have thought that you make it a condition of entry to have lists with you by certain deadline. Surely it is not to arduous for people to email their list through?

Dock points for late (and incorrect) lists. It's pretty simple.

PLC wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:Whenever I run a tournament, getting all the lists before the tournament is pretty much impossible. But collecting a list as people sign-in, then verifying the lists in round 1 is a definite.

Why is that? I would have thought that you make it a condition of entry to have lists with you by certain deadline. Surely it is not to arduous for people to email their list through?

Dock points for late (and incorrect) lists. It's pretty simple.

You try running a tournament for 140 people, where registration is allowed up til the start time.

I assume you have black listed this cat from any future events you host, right? That should be your first step if you have good reason to believe it was done on purpose.

TR

Centurian99 wrote:

You try running a tournament for 140 people, where registration is allowed up til the start time.

Run an annual convention for 200 people - however I realise it is sensible not to allow registration up until start time. Require lists to be in a week before and have financial disincentives to leave registration until last week.

Amazing how following that process solves the problem of incorrect lists and unhappy campers after the event.

plc